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      08-26-2015, 01:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
I just have an image in my head of that asshole tossing a pressure cooker in their direction and how seemingly silly that would look.
Would get your point across and wouldn't be dead? Your onto something, pressure cooker fight!
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      08-26-2015, 01:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
That's just stupid, cars are designed to get you somewhere, guns are designed to kill stuff.

I don't know why the pro-gun people cannot just be honest and say "look, i know it has consequences but i prefer the right to own and am prepared to live with said consequences".

Instead you try to defy the damning stats and the inarguable reality that lax gun laws leads to a higher murder rate. Just be honest FFS.
I personally do prefer the right to own and i am prepared to defend myself. And if you were to look at the raw stats you'd see that the damning stats you are referring to are cherry picked and spun for effect. Do you think the cops would have made it there in time if this guy did only have a knife? He would have had maybe 2 to 7 minutes to slice people up, even if the cops were called when the perp got out of his car. Police are a reactionary force. My safety is my responsibility.

I wouldn't resort to comparing one inanimate killing object (a motor vehicle) to another ( a gun) if so many weren't so quick to blame the gun, while not blaming the car. Design has no matter. Box cutters are designed to open boxes. Take one with you for your next flight.
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      08-26-2015, 01:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
It is, but if you think someone couldn't kill and or seriously injure 3 people with a knife, who are that OBLIVIOUS to your presence, you're quite naive.

There is a reason police and first responders have a 21' rule when dealing with someone who has a edged weapon.
Didn't say it wasn't possible, just significantly harder.

You're quite naive if you honestly believe that committing mass murder is just as easy with a knife or a chainsaw than a firearm...well one that isn't a Desert Eagle or anything in this instance.

Cho likely wouldn't of killed as many people as he did in Blacksburg, VA that one day if he just went in with a sword or something.
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      08-26-2015, 01:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Whostheboss View Post
Strict gun law or loose gun law has nothing to do with it. This is not a gun debate!

A nut job killed two people then himself.
He's still alive.
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      08-26-2015, 01:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post

If guns were the problem, everyone in America would be dead as it's almost safe to say that guns outnumber people in this county.
You think the US has less shooting incidents per capita than other random western countries where guns are forbidden and are hard to come by?

As far as western countries go the US has about the highest murder rate (and certainly gun related).

If nutcases have easy access to guns, the chances that they use it goes up. And a gun is a very effective tool for killing people as that was where it was designed for.
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      08-26-2015, 01:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
I personally do prefer the right to own and i am prepared to defend myself. And if you were to look at the raw stats you'd see that the damning stats you are referring to are cherry picked and spun for effect. Do you think the cops would have made it there in time if this guy did only have a knife? He would have had maybe 2 to 7 minutes to slice people up,
Then why did he, and so many others, use a gun?

Pointless fucking argument anyway, it is what it is down there it's never gonna change. Madness, absolute fucking madness.
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      08-26-2015, 01:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
That's just stupid, cars are designed to get you somewhere, guns are designed to kill stuff.

I don't know why the pro-gun people cannot just be honest and say "look, i know it has consequences but i prefer the right to own and am prepared to live with said consequences".

Instead you try to defy the damning stats and the inarguable reality that lax gun laws leads to a higher murder rate. Just be honest FFS.
When you drive a car you are saying the same thing. "I know that people will die in auto accidents every year, but I prefer not to walk and am prepared to live with the consequences."

For every nut like this there are tens of thousands who protect and feed their families every year with firearms. Many self defense scenarios are never reported because when you draw the bad guy usually runs off and no shots are fired. And almost all gun-related deaths are due to inner-city crime and gang activity, most of which involve guns which are not legally owned. Incidents like these are a tiny fraction of the statistics.

Look at the UK, where it is nearly impossible to own a firearm yet violent crime is through the roof. This is because criminals found other means like knives and bats or concrete curbs.
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      08-26-2015, 01:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
When you drive a car you are saying the same thing. "I know that people will die in auto accidents every year, but I prefer not to walk and am prepared to live with the consequences."
Right, but I am going somewhere, that's the primary function of the vehicle. The primary function of the gun is to kill things, that's it's job.

It's like talking to religious folk, no amount of common sense gets through 'cos they are so blinded by their religion.
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      08-26-2015, 01:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
Auto accidents are a little different, it's tragic if the victims weren't at fault. It's tragic if they are, but if someone is killed because they were drunk driving at 100 mph in the pouring rain, people tend to react with less sympathy. At least throughout the decades, people have done more to reduce their instances, from making cars safer, to upping the punishments for DUI's. So while tragic, at least people are doing more to reduce their occurrence. Shit, we have cars that pretty much drive themselves now.



Can't argue with that.



They are, I think the feeling of frustration is the fact that no one cares to do anything about it. Granted there are some knee jerk reactions and suggestions that simply won't be feasible both from a practicality and legal standpoint, but things like preventing people with known mental illness from purchasing a gun at your local Dick's Sporting Goods would at least help reduce instances of these shootings.

If you really wanted to target most shooting deaths, you'd also crack down on illegal guns circulating urban neighborhoods amongst gangs. Richmond, VA did something similar in the 90's when they had some of the highest homicide rates in the country. If you were caught with an illegal firearm, congrats, you were spending the next several years in Federal prison, no exceptions. And it worked. It punished those who illegally purchased guns while leaving legal abiding citizens to their own devices.

Will these measures eliminate gun violence? Nope, just the same as all the advances we've made in automotive safety and changing laws to have stricter penalties for driving related offenses still won't eliminate car related deaths but like I said, the frustration from many is the overall feeling of helplessness.
I'm with you on a few points.

Decriminalize marajuna to make a plethora of space in our prisons and throw the effing book at violent offenders.

Make a lack of responsible gun ownership punishable with fines and if too many offenses are made by one person, revoke their right to purchase or own firearms. Hopefully this will prompt people to properly store their guns.

But curbing violence is the answer. Education is the answer. Punishing millions of law abiding citizens for the actions of a few is not the answer.
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      08-26-2015, 01:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
Look at the UK, where it is nearly impossible to own a firearm yet violent crime is through the roof. This is because criminals found other means like knives and bats or concrete curbs.
The homicide rate in the UK is nearly FOUR TIMES lower than the US. Four times. As it is Australia and Canada ... peer countries on almost all levels except for gun ownership and homicide rates. Massive fail.
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      08-26-2015, 01:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You think the US has less shooting incidents per capita than other random western countries where guns are forbidden and are hard to come by?

As far as western countries go the US has about the highest murder rate (and certainly gun related).

If nutcases have easy access to guns, the chances that they use it goes up. And a gun is a very effective tool for killing people as that was where it was designed for.
But even if the US had strict gun laws, that nut case could still gain access to a gun someway somehow.

I don't think strict or loose gun laws has anything to do with this particular case.

However, if the shooting were ACCIDENTAL then, you could be right. If a lot of people were dying accidentally by guns, then i will say we need to make guns stricter.
But these are murderers. Murder is murder.
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      08-26-2015, 01:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
When you drive a car you are saying the same thing. "I know that people will die in auto accidents every year, but I prefer not to walk and am prepared to live with the consequences."

For every nut like this there are tens of thousands who protect and feed their families every year with firearms. Many self defense scenarios are never reported because when you draw the bad guy usually runs off and no shots are fired. And almost all gun-related deaths are due to inner-city crime and gang activity, most of which involve guns which are not legally owned. Incidents like these are a tiny fraction of the statistics.

Look at the UK, where it is nearly impossible to own a firearm yet violent crime is through the roof. This is because criminals found other means like knives and bats or concrete curbs.
I think this goes back to my point on why people don't throw so much of an uproar in auto accidents vs. mass shootings (note I said mass shootings, not shooting homicides since those tend to happen in gang related incidents so no one really cares as much) is because society has made steps through stricter laws against things like DUI's as well as advances in car tech to help reduce them and in aggregate, fatal accidents have gone down over the past several decades.

Peoples' frustration with mass shootings is that no one seems to be able to do anything about it and the people just have this attitude that centers around "meh, nothing you can do about it" or some paranoia that doing something to reduce their instances would mean some task force is gonna kick down your door and take your guns away. It's like people aren't even willing to have a rational conversation about it. There are things you can do to REDUCE (not eliminate, that'd be naive, much in the same way that it's naive to think you can eliminate any car related deaths) these instances that don't require restricting a legally abiding citizens access to guns. Hell you have the legal standing and means to purchase an M1 carbine? Go for it.
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      08-26-2015, 01:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Given the close nature of the incident he could have easily gone up and stabbed the guy with a sharpened stick in the neck and killed him.
People have been killing each other far before guns were invented
Don't blame the device , blame the unstabled person using it for the wrong purposes
How come occurrences like these are more common in the USA than anywhere else in the world? How come they are less common in, let's say China, than anywhere else? Less unstable people in China? Did not think so.
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      08-26-2015, 01:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Right, but I am going somewhere, that's the primary function of the vehicle. The primary function of the gun is to kill things, that's it's job.

It's like talking to religious folk, no amount of common sense gets through 'cos they are so blinded by their religion.
This is true, but the point stands. Dead or alive is a black-and-white state of being. So when you say that cars are designed to get you somewhere, I say that guns are designed to kill things. But people die from each of these. And as I said before, people defend themselves and PREVENT death by using firearms all the time. It just usually goes unreported due to the lack of a need to fire a shot. In most self-defense situations no shots are fired, nobody dies. Same as when most people drive to work every day, most don't have a wreck and nobody dies.
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      08-26-2015, 01:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Given the close nature of the incident he could have easily gone up and stabbed the guy with a sharpened stick in the neck and killed him.
People have been killing each other far before guns were invented
Don't blame the device , blame the unstabled person using it for the wrong purposes
If you don't mind me saying your comparison is fatuous.

I'm not aware of any recorded incidents of people being murdered with HB pencils....
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      08-26-2015, 01:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
Didn't say it wasn't possible, just significantly harder.

You're quite naive if you honestly believe that committing mass murder is just as easy with a knife or a chainsaw than a firearm...well one that isn't a Desert Eagle or anything in this instance.

Cho likely wouldn't of killed as many people as he did in Blacksburg, VA that one day if he just went in with a sword or something.
Ok, calm down a bit. I was very specific when talking about this incident. And i firstly agreed with you that a firearm is a more efficient killing tool. But you'd be surprised how easy it is to kill with a knife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
He's still alive.
That is almost as sad as what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You think the US has less shooting incidents per capita than other random western countries where guns are forbidden and are hard to come by?

As far as western countries go the US has about the highest murder rate (and certainly gun related).

If nutcases have easy access to guns, the chances that they use it goes up. And a gun is a very effective tool for killing people as that was where it was designed for.
Read what i said. If all guns were bad, how would anyone be alive in this country? The fact is, when this incident happened, there were 350,000,000 other legally owned guns that didn't kill anyone in this country. That actually happens every day in this country. All those millions of guns don't kill anyone. It just so happens when a nut bag gets his hands on one, it makes it easy for him to fulfill his demented fantasy of creating a legend for himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Then why did he, and so many others, use a gun?

Pointless fucking argument anyway, it is what it is down there it's never gonna change. Madness, absolute fucking madness.
We all agree with you, because it's easier to pull a trigger than get close to someone. And i mean that in a mental capacity and physical. Though, in this incident this guy could have had his way a blade just as easily.

The gun is a cowards revenge tool.
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      08-26-2015, 01:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
I'm with you on a few points.

Decriminalize marajuna to make a plethora of space in our prisons and throw the effing book at violent offenders.

Make a lack of responsible gun ownership punishable with fines and if too many offenses are made by one person, revoke their right to purchase or own firearms. Hopefully this will prompt people to properly store their guns.

But curbing violence is the answer. Education is the answer. Punishing millions of law abiding citizens for the actions of a few is not the answer.
Spot on, I agree with this 100%. I suspect many others do too.

I theorized once that people should purchase gun insurance, kind of like the way you need (or at least should) tell your home or renters insurance company if you own guns or purchase a gun...one assumes you'd at least like them replaced if your home or apartment burns to the ground anyway or if some dipshit manages to gain access to your gun and shoots himself by accident, at least you're protected if he or she tries to sue the shit out of you.

You could create incentive to be RESPONSIBLE gun owners from that right there. If they're kept in a safe, then you get a discount. You took a firearm safety course? You get a discount. I theorized that years ago as a possible solution.

I grew up in a gun loving household since my dad is an avid hunter and I've never had an issue with guns. I recall times just face palming because I couldn't grasp the news stories where parents LEFT A LOADED GUN for their child to easily have access to and accidentally killing themselves or someone else. I always found that so dumbfounding. As a child, if I ever even entered my house with a loaded gun and forgot to unload it prior to coming inside, he'd of killed me. Before touching a gun as a kid my dad took me aside and taught me how to use one, responsible handling of a gun, storing it, etc etc. It's absolutely dumbfounding to me that other families never bothered to do the same, or at least keep them in safe storage.
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      08-26-2015, 01:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
The homicide rate in the UK is nearly FOUR TIMES lower than the US. Four times. As it is Australia and Canada ... peer countries on almost all levels except for gun ownership and homicide rates. Massive fail.
Their population is also about 4.7 times lower than the US's and I said violent crime, not homicide. Violent crimes include armed robbery, stabbings and beatings etc. that don't lead to death, and yes, homicide. This doesn't even factor in the amount of gang violence in the US, which as said before, accounts for most homicides.
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      08-26-2015, 01:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
Their population is also about 4.7 times lower than the US's and I said violent crime, not homicide. Violent crimes include armed robbery, stabbings and beatings etc. that don't lead to death, and yes, homicide. This doesn't even factor in the amount of gang violence in the US, which as said before, accounts for most homicides.
Jesus spare me.

Rate, homicide RATE, population is accounted for. Which is actually WORSE for the US because mass killings have a bigger impact on the numbers in countries with lower populations.

As for homicide vs deaths, you prove my point! The US appears to not be significantly more violent than the UK or Canada or AUstralia but you end up dead more often because people are locked and loaded.
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      08-26-2015, 01:52 PM   #42
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Quote:
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Their population is also about 4.7 times lower than the US's
You do not understand the concept of a rate? a percentage?
If you do not, this discussion must be very hard for you to follow.
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      08-26-2015, 01:53 PM   #43
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This happened about a one mile, maybe less, (as the bird flies) from my house. They said he had escaped on foot at first. I was very happy to have my guns in my hands this morning. I was definitely on alert, but felt safe. Glad I have that right on days like this.
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      08-26-2015, 01:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
Their population is also about 4.7 times lower than the US's and I said violent crime, not homicide. Violent crimes include armed robbery, stabbings and beatings etc. that don't lead to death, and yes, homicide. This doesn't even factor in the amount of gang violence in the US, which as said before, accounts for most homicides.
I think they're going off a per capita basis, which normalizes for population.
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