BMW i
Forum for the BMW i3, i4 and i8
BMW i3 BMW i8
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

  BMW i Forums > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-29-2015, 03:23 AM   #23
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
706
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Some are, many aren't. Any intelligent design or creation scientist could talk circles around the best evolutionist. The fact is that Darwin himself would not agree with his own theories based on today's fossil records. Where are all of the interspecies ("missing links") that he said would have to be found to validate his theory of evolution? Uhhh...they're still missing.

Nothing comes from nothing. The only something that comes from nothing is...more nothing. Only a fool would think otherwise. Think about what you guys are saying! Are any you really suggesting that this complex universe appeared out of nothingness? That is true insanity.

Let me ask you a simple question: If you had to choose between something that was "hard to believe" vs. something that was "impossible to believe", which would you choose?
Red:
Well, until recently, where was the flowing water on Mars? Where was the Higgs boson? Who knew that subatomic particles could accelerate on their own, without the application of external forces? Where was the explanation for why the presence of heat slowed certain chemical reactions rather than hastening them?

Given time, science will figure out whether the universe was created from nothing. For now, they've only identified the equations that show it's possible that it was. They now have to look for evidence that it in fact was or was not. When they determine what the indicators are that something was created from nothing, and if it turns out the universe is among the things that were thus created, what will theists say and do then?
.
I am a theist right now, but I have to say that if the causal argument ever gets blown out of the water -- and make no mistake, the causal argument is the strongest one theists have for the existence of God -- I will cease to be a theist. Showing mathematically that something can come from nothing (something that's already been accomplished) is a huge step, but not a big enough one to shake my faith.

I'm still willing to have faith that God exists, but if/when science demonstrates that the universe appeared out of nothing, that's it. I'm done with faith in God's existence; from that point forward, God's going to need to make a personal appearance and "do something" that demonstrates he "all that," perhaps create a new universe somewhere, or time warp the planet to the Andromeda Galaxy, or something.

Blue:
Really? You asked that question expecting someone with a keen mind to answer it?

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 1
      09-29-2015, 10:34 AM   #24
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
8114
Rep
7,533
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

Tony,

Sounds like you need a pre-nup (or maybe already signed one) before your marriage to Jesus. . . just an observation.
Appreciate 0
      09-29-2015, 12:41 PM   #25
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
706
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Tony,

Sounds like you need a pre-nup (or maybe already signed one) before your marriage to Jesus. . . just an observation.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      09-29-2015, 05:23 PM   #26
Doc Oc
Captain Fatbelly
Doc Oc's Avatar
United_States
1357
Rep
2,026
Posts

Drives: C63 amg
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Upyourbuttandtotheleft

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Uhhh...fact check, please. Where did you pull that number from...a black hole?

Do you consider Richard Dawkins to be one of those "brightest minds"? Do you know where he believes life came from?
I do know what he believes, if you are talking about the possibility of alien design. IMO that solves nothing, but I don't find it any more unbelievable than god. Regardless, he does not speak for me and his views are completely irrelevant to mine. Atheism is not a belief.

To answer your other question I am referring to Einstein and Hawking and Tyson and Dennet and Pinker and Crick, etc etc etc. 93% of the scientists in the USA identify as atheist. In fact nearly 100% of the population is atheist to most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. There have been thousands of them, but most don't believe in any of them except one.....and are absolutely convinced they have the right one!
__________________
2013 c63 Amg coupe p31, v7 tune, plm headers, armytrix downpipes, EflexFuel

2008 dct coupe, evolve engine/dct tune, ttp, ms intake, megan exhaust, cf ds. Sold.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 09-29-2015 at 11:51 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-29-2015, 05:58 PM   #27
Doc Oc
Captain Fatbelly
Doc Oc's Avatar
United_States
1357
Rep
2,026
Posts

Drives: C63 amg
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Upyourbuttandtotheleft

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Some are, many aren't. Any intelligent design or creation scientist could talk circles around the best evolutionist. The fact is that Darwin himself would not agree with his own theories based on today's fossil records. Where are all of the interspecies ("missing links") that he said would have to be found to validate his theory of evolution? Uhhh...they're still missing.

Nothing comes from nothing. The only something that comes from nothing is...more nothing. Only a fool would think otherwise. Think about what you guys are saying! Are any you really suggesting that this complex universe appeared out of nothingness? That is true insanity.

Let me ask you a simple question: If you had to choose between something that was "hard to believe" vs. something that was "impossible to believe", which would you choose?
Unfortunately your solution to the " nothing comes from nothing" argument isn't a solution at all. Your solution is: nothing made a god, that god made everything. Where does that get you? That is far more difficult for me to believe than believing we don't yet have enough puzzle pieces to make the picture. We are a young species and have only had real technology for a few decades. Give it some time. The universe has been at it for 14 billion years, we aren't going to unlock it that quickly.

Your argument sums up the major problem I have with religion. The worlds brightest scientists have looked at the evidence and agree that evolution is a fact. The pope even agrees. Yet because of the overwhelming desire for an after-life the devout will ignore the undeniable evidence and consensus in favor of virgin births, talking snakes, parting seas, prophecies, armageddon, etc. The fact that anyone could actually think favoring evidence and science is crazier than believing a 14 billion year old universe was conjured up and controlled by a super-deity is proof to just how brainwashed the religious are. There are 60 billion plus galaxies out there, each one containing astronomical numbers of star systems, containing the possibility for millions or billions of life supporting planets. How can anyone believe it is all under the control of a god, or even more infuriating, the christian god? The real problem is that the religious are programed to believe their salvation is tied to this issue, so they can never be objective.
__________________
2013 c63 Amg coupe p31, v7 tune, plm headers, armytrix downpipes, EflexFuel

2008 dct coupe, evolve engine/dct tune, ttp, ms intake, megan exhaust, cf ds. Sold.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 09-29-2015 at 11:55 PM..
Appreciate 2
      09-29-2015, 06:37 PM   #28
///WORK-F36
Captain
///WORK-F36's Avatar
United_States
268
Rep
823
Posts

Drives: Glacier silver F36
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

I believe in a higher power or creator, but it's not a white guy with long hair and a beard, and i don't believe that this creator spoke to someone on the top a mountain and gave him rules that everyone has to follow

I also believe in evolution, you'd be a fool not to....creationists who believe the earth is only like 5000 years old need to pick up a science text book
Appreciate 0
      09-29-2015, 06:58 PM   #29
Doc Oc
Captain Fatbelly
Doc Oc's Avatar
United_States
1357
Rep
2,026
Posts

Drives: C63 amg
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Upyourbuttandtotheleft

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I believe in a higher power or creator, but it's not a white guy with long hair and a beard, and i don't believe that this creator spoke to someone on the top a mountain and gave him rules that everyone has to follow

I also believe in evolution, you'd be a fool not to....creationists who believe the earth is only like 5000 years old need to pick up a science text book
I agree with that! I don't believe in a "creator" because to me that indicates a being or entity. I think its more of a force or process. Everything in this universe exists within the laws of physics. I don't know why the creation of it would be any different.
__________________
2013 c63 Amg coupe p31, v7 tune, plm headers, armytrix downpipes, EflexFuel

2008 dct coupe, evolve engine/dct tune, ttp, ms intake, megan exhaust, cf ds. Sold.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 09-29-2015 at 11:56 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 10:51 AM   #30
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
8114
Rep
7,533
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

Doc,

With that pesky law that nothing is faster than the speed of light, how are we going to find those other lifeforms on those vast numbers of other planets? And yes, I believe there are all those other planets out there, many of them capable of supporting life "as we know it"
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 12:29 PM   #31
///WORK-F36
Captain
///WORK-F36's Avatar
United_States
268
Rep
823
Posts

Drives: Glacier silver F36
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Doc,

With that pesky law that nothing is faster than the speed of light, how are we going to find those other lifeforms on those vast numbers of other planets? And yes, I believe there are all those other planets out there, many of them capable of supporting life "as we know it"
wormholes
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 01:04 PM   #32
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
8114
Rep
7,533
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
wormholes
Well all you #whippersnappers best hurry up and figure this shite out before I die. I want to see too!!!!
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 01:26 PM   #33
///WORK-F36
Captain
///WORK-F36's Avatar
United_States
268
Rep
823
Posts

Drives: Glacier silver F36
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Well all you #whippersnappers best hurry up and figure this shite out before I die. I want to see too!!!!
Just go watch The Martian with Matt Damon on Friday
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 01:27 PM   #34
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
8114
Rep
7,533
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

Didn't I already watch that in "The Red Planet"??

Opps, Off Topic
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 02:59 PM   #35
Doc Oc
Captain Fatbelly
Doc Oc's Avatar
United_States
1357
Rep
2,026
Posts

Drives: C63 amg
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Upyourbuttandtotheleft

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Doc,

With that pesky law that nothing is faster than the speed of light, how are we going to find those other lifeforms on those vast numbers of other planets? And yes, I believe there are all those other planets out there, many of them capable of supporting life "as we know it"
That's the question! Physics allows for the existence of wormholes, but I can't really get my head around how we could create/control them. What really bothers me is that one has to assume that other civilizations are out there and also that some of these civilizations have had a million or billion year evolutionary head start on us, yet they don't seem to be zooming around the universe (at least that we know of) like star trek, which might be proof that maybe no one will ever get around that interstellar speed limit. Interesting to think about for sure!
__________________
2013 c63 Amg coupe p31, v7 tune, plm headers, armytrix downpipes, EflexFuel

2008 dct coupe, evolve engine/dct tune, ttp, ms intake, megan exhaust, cf ds. Sold.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 09-30-2015 at 03:07 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 03:01 PM   #36
okusa
Major
okusa's Avatar
307
Rep
1,324
Posts

Drives: '11 E90 M3 - SSII
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Nothing comes from nothing. The only something that comes from nothing is...more nothing. Only a fool would think otherwise. Think about what you guys are saying! Are any you really suggesting that this complex universe appeared out of nothingness? That is true insanity.

Let me ask you a simple question: If you had to choose between something that was "hard to believe" vs. something that was "impossible to believe", which would you choose?
I'm always amused by this classical theist premise. So, if God exists, he did not come from nothing, i.e. he came from something. However, this is impossible given Isaiah's stated position.

So, Isaiah, which is it? Either God does not exist or "nothing comes from nothing" is false.
Appreciate 1
      09-30-2015, 04:17 PM   #37
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
706
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
I'm always amused by this classical theist premise. So, if God exists, he did not come from nothing, i.e. he came from something. However, this is impossible given Isaiah's stated position.

So, Isaiah, which is it? Either God does not exist or "nothing comes from nothing" is false.
That is one of the dimensions that gave rise to my surprise at his having even raised that question, be it rhetorically or authentically.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 05:50 PM   #38
bmwmsport
Captain
bmwmsport's Avatar
United_States
124
Rep
950
Posts

Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Jackson, MS

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
I'm always amused by this classical theist premise. So, if God exists, he did not come from nothing, i.e. he came from something. However, this is impossible given Isaiah's stated position.

So, Isaiah, which is it? Either God does not exist or "nothing comes from nothing" is false.
You're assuming God has to obey the same laws we do, which is incorrect.

God needs no cause (hence the name Uncaused Cause). We (this universe, everything in it) is an effect, where he is the cause. God has always existed. In fact, he can't not exist.

The fact that we are arguing over whether or not something can come from nothing is absolutely absurd. That fact itself should show anyone how lost we are.

Out of nothing, nothing comes. Case and point. If I have a room of nothing, it will never be something. It will always be nothing. If you don't believe me, try it.

Tony, the articles you point to that "prove" something can come from nothing are great and all, but they're just incorrect based on the premise. Sure, particles can change state. Light can be a wave. It can be a particle. That doesn't mean light ceases to exist when we aren't thinking of it as a particle. If something changes from matter to energy, that's not being deleted from the universe.
__________________
2010 E90 335i Le Mans Blue Metallic // Saddle Brown // M Sport // iDrive // Comfort Access // Blown By Twins
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 05:55 PM   #39
bmwmsport
Captain
bmwmsport's Avatar
United_States
124
Rep
950
Posts

Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Jackson, MS

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I believe in a higher power or creator, but it's not a white guy with long hair and a beard, and i don't believe that this creator spoke to someone on the top a mountain and gave him rules that everyone has to follow

I also believe in evolution, you'd be a fool not to....creationists who believe the earth is only like 5000 years old need to pick up a science text book
Sounds like you just believe that by faith

No one knows what God looks like, we only know of him what he's told us.

I'll try to avoid the inevitable creationism vs evolutionism debate, but I can't stand it when people just assume evolution is truth and science cause it's printed in a textbook. I've read plenty on the theory of evolution. If you could just tell me how intelligence is gained over time (since that clearly contradicts a known law of science) I'll gladly subscribe to evolution. Unfortunately, it has more holes in it than a redneck's target after an ammo sale.

Not saying the world is 5000 years old but the idea that all this came from a primordial ooze is just absurd.
__________________
2010 E90 335i Le Mans Blue Metallic // Saddle Brown // M Sport // iDrive // Comfort Access // Blown By Twins
Appreciate 0
      09-30-2015, 06:17 PM   #40
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1987
Rep
8,340
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

They can track the universe back to a single point to the big bang. Theorists have gone farther to other dimensions etc before the big bang. Something intelligent taking over after the big bang I doubt. But it all had to come from somewhere prior which still leads the door open to god. Would he care about us anymore than we care about bacteria? Doubtful. Just cause you can't comprehend coming from ooze doesn't mean it didn't happen over billions of years of mutation. Science is still new learning things. It wasn't long ago we believe a viking with a hammer caused thunder.
Appreciate 1
      09-30-2015, 06:28 PM   #41
Doc Oc
Captain Fatbelly
Doc Oc's Avatar
United_States
1357
Rep
2,026
Posts

Drives: C63 amg
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Upyourbuttandtotheleft

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Sounds like you just believe that by faith

No one knows what God looks like, we only know of him what he's told us.

I'll try to avoid the inevitable creationism vs evolutionism debate, but I can't stand it when people just assume evolution is truth and science cause it's printed in a textbook. I've read plenty on the theory of evolution. If you could just tell me how intelligence is gained over time (since that clearly contradicts a known law of science) I'll gladly subscribe to evolution. Unfortunately, it has more holes in it than a redneck's target after an ammo sale.

Not saying the world is 5000 years old but the idea that all this came from a primordial ooze is just absurd.
But he hasn't told us anything. You are speaking about this being as if he is a tangible thing that we have tangible proof of. He is not, he's a hope, an idea, presented thousands of years ago without a shred of evidence or proof. We have one old book of dubious origin full of unbelievable stories and are expected to blindly follow that even when it is completely contradicted by provable, testable facts? It is absured and serves no purpose but to keep us ignorant. All we know is we don't have all the answers yet. Chalking it all up to a supernatural being who lives outside the laws of physics, who was never created and has always existed (that makes a lot of sense) who uses magic to create us and listen to our thoughts, and I am assuming the thoughts of the trillions of other species that are sure to exist on other planets, is ridiculous. So is your assertion that intelligence is not gained over time. Not even sure what that means? We are clearly more intelligent than early humans. That can not be debated.
__________________
2013 c63 Amg coupe p31, v7 tune, plm headers, armytrix downpipes, EflexFuel

2008 dct coupe, evolve engine/dct tune, ttp, ms intake, megan exhaust, cf ds. Sold.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 09-30-2015 at 07:02 PM..
Appreciate 1
      09-30-2015, 06:53 PM   #42
1smokehouse
Second Lieutenant
1smokehouse's Avatar
Guam
131
Rep
248
Posts

Drives: 2013 135i DCT
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Guam

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW 135i  [0.00]
2013 BMW 128i LE  [4.50]
This is all the proof I will ever need.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. John 14:18-24.


The disclosure is personal, not to the world as a whole. The world has rejected Him since the beginning, but He opens the door to those who knock. Personal disclosure is the reward of faith. Along with that disclosure comes wisdom (not of this world) and understanding. This is also why I see that faith is becoming more absurd (foolish - 1 Cor 1:18) to those who need proof that is universal (that the whole world can see and not reject). That proof will come, when He returns as predicted in Revelation.
__________________


// '13 SGM 135i M-Sport DCT PPK //
Appreciate 1
      09-30-2015, 06:56 PM   #43
///WORK-F36
Captain
///WORK-F36's Avatar
United_States
268
Rep
823
Posts

Drives: Glacier silver F36
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Sounds like you just believe that by faith

No one knows what God looks like, we only know of him what he's told us.

I'll try to avoid the inevitable creationism vs evolutionism debate, but I can't stand it when people just assume evolution is truth and science cause it's printed in a textbook. I've read plenty on the theory of evolution. If you could just tell me how intelligence is gained over time (since that clearly contradicts a known law of science) I'll gladly subscribe to evolution. Unfortunately, it has more holes in it than a redneck's target after an ammo sale.

Not saying the world is 5000 years old but the idea that all this came from a primordial ooze is just absurd.
There's zero proof "he" has told us anything. All you have is the interpretations of early man trying to explain what he doesn't understand. Just because someone wrote in a book that God spoke to them does not in any way make it true in the least. People that say God speaks to them today are labeled crazy....yet when it happens a few thousand years ago it's suddenly supposed to be legitimate?
Appreciate 2
      09-30-2015, 06:58 PM   #44
///WORK-F36
Captain
///WORK-F36's Avatar
United_States
268
Rep
823
Posts

Drives: Glacier silver F36
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Irvine

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1smokehouse View Post
This is all the proof I will ever need.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. John 14:18-24.


The disclosure is personal, not to the world as a whole. The world has rejected Him since the beginning, but He opens the door to those who knock. Personal disclosure is the reward of faith. Along with that disclosure comes wisdom (not of this world) and understanding. This is also why I see that faith is becoming more absurd (foolish - 1 Cor 1:18) to those who need proof that is universal (that the whole world can see and not reject). That proof will come, when He returns as predicted in Revelation.
The world has not rejected God, most people do believe in some form of God. But the writings of MEN from a few thousand years ago do not equate to proof of the existence of Christian god
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 PM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST