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      09-23-2015, 12:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
I just read this and the rampant and trendy knee jerk movement is alive and kicking. Embarrassing. But you'll never hear any apologizing.

http://feeds.nydailynews.com/~r/Nydn...icle-1.2371026
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      09-23-2015, 12:15 PM   #90
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/23/middle...ion/index.html

Well this kid better be glad he didn't pull this shit in Saudi Arabia. The kid in the article above is facing decapitation and crucifixion for protesting. Yeah and we're the fucked up ones..
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      09-23-2015, 12:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
It is X a billion.

Holy nooseaphobia batman, there's three pieces of string in that tree!
I noticed it already Robin, simmer down, and have sent commissioner Gordon a bat signal!
Da- da- da da dull la la...BATMAN!
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      09-23-2015, 01:02 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
It is X a billion.

Holy nooseaphobia batman, there's three pieces of string in that tree!
I noticed it already Robin, simmer down, and have sent commissioner Gordon a bat signal!
Da- da- da da dull la la...BATMAN!
haha!

Quote:
Students noticed what looked like three nooses hanging from a tree near a residence hall around 10 p.m. and immediately started posting photos on social media.

Some immediately feared a violent bigot on campus, and several reportedly broke down in tears after seeing the tree.
Quote:
“I’ve been called the n-word multiple times. I’ve dealt with a lot of racial BS at this campus, but never, never in my wildest imagination did I think in my last year here ...that in the middle of the night, I would run up to a tree with three nooses hanging there,” senior Gerti Wilson, who is black, told DelawareOnline.

The furor came just days after a black University at Buffalo student sparked outrage by putting "Whites Only" signs around campus for an art project.
If only these students were aware of the absolute fairness that life will bestow upon them once they graduate. They'd be much happier people. lol
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      09-23-2015, 01:11 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Are you seriously telling us that what you find disturbing enough to highlight out of all those examples, including Master Mohamed's, is whether or not any of those kids got WH invitations or donations?...

...However tangentially connected with an academic pursuit be Master Mohamed's clock, it's certainly more scholarly than is chewing a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun, wearing a purchased t-shirt, folding one's fingers to make a finger gun
More or less, yes. The majority of the kids you linked to are white, and they were all punished on grounds relating to "guns", ie, they don't fit into the victim narrative the left likes to push. They got a couple short-lived news stories and then disappeared. No trendy companies tripping over themselves to make it up to them, no White House invites, no real outrage. But along comes Ahmed, a little bit of confusion and no lasting damage - and everyone loses their minds! It's the same white guilt phenomena that I was talking about earlier. Ahmed isn't white, he isn't Christian and he was inconvenienced by "The Man". He must be a victim!

This is a pattern that is emerging and happening more and more frequently that concerns me. We've stopped looking at situations rationally, now we just look for something to be offended about. We also have a POTUS who was better positioned to improve race relations than any man before him, but instead he has chosen to take every opportunity to exacerbate them.

Don't think I didn't notice how you conveniently ignored the kid who wrote a story for an assignment in your assertion of what is/isn't scholarly. Very telling bit of omission there. Swapping a clock out of the factory housing and into something else with the intention of making people think you built it = scholarly. Writing a story that involves a gun to fulfill a class assignment = not scholarly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony20009
Why stop at the school grounds? Why not check the whole city for hidden bombs? I bet they weren't sure if there was or was not a bomb lurking in a culvert or in a manhole somewhere either. The kid's Muslim. Did the police check to make sure he hadn't crafted a bio or chemical weapon and stored it in the school's biology or chemistry labs?
Probably because the school was the only reasonable place to look given the circumstances. Are you really saying you reject this idea because the cops didn't profile him enough?
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      09-23-2015, 01:38 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/23/middle...ion/index.html

Well this kid better be glad he didn't pull this shit in Saudi Arabia. The kid in the article above is facing decapitation and crucifixion for protesting. Yeah and we're the fucked up ones..
What do events in Saudi Arabia have to do with that boy in Irving, TX?

I have to wonder who here has any understanding of Sufism? It's a pacifist sect within Islam "Sufism has traditionally tended more towards interpreting the love of one's fellow man as an extension of one's love for Allah, and has thus been historically seen as a fundamentally pacifistic movement." (Boulding, Elise. Cultures of Peace: The Hidden Side of History (Syracuse Studies on Peace and Conflict Resolution). Syracuse University Press. 2000. Page 57). Therefore, why folks are grasping at straws to associate Mr. Elhassan and his son with radical, or even just strictly conservative Muslims is beyond me.

From what I've read, the teachings and approach of Sufism is to Islam and political activism are more akin to MLK's teachings and approach were to Christianity and political activism than they are to KKK. Christianity has its radical, fundamentalist, right-wing sects just like Islam does.
  • The Christian Identity Movement
  • The Aryan Nations
  • The Orange Volunteers
  • Catholic Reaction Force/Protestant Action Force
  • KKK
  • Army of God
Conservatives champion conservative Christian values, yet they are practically mum when it comes to heinous acts of violence perpetrated in defense of their god. (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-an...ight-white-men) Fox and other conservative outlets are quick and vociferous in their mentioning and ranting about Muslims, non-conservatives, or whatever else be their pet theme of the moment.

Time and time again I see conservative members on B-post ranting on about rights. For example, they are quick to defend 2nd Amendment rights. Did anyone here speak up for the 1st Amendment rights of the Muslims whom Robert Doggart, a member of the Christian National Church, sought to attack a bunch of Musilms using a "military-tested M4," machete and pistol? Where is the Fox editorial decrying his intentions?
  1. Doggart
  2. Doggart
  3. Doggart
Merely being Muslim is neither more nor less indicative of an individual's propensity for being a threat than is being a Christian, Athiest or Jew.
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      09-23-2015, 01:48 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
What do events in Saudi Arabia have to do with that boy in Irving, TX?

I have to wonder who here has any understanding of Sufism? It's a pacifist sect within Islam "Sufism has traditionally tended more towards interpreting the love of one's fellow man as an extension of one's love for Allah, and has thus been historically seen as a fundamentally pacifistic movement." (Boulding, Elise. Cultures of Peace: The Hidden Side of History (Syracuse Studies on Peace and Conflict Resolution). Syracuse University Press. 2000. Page 57). Therefore, why folks are grasping at straws to associate Mr. Elhassan and his son with radical, or even just strictly conservative Muslims is beyond me.

From what I've read, the teachings and approach of Sufism is to Islam and political activism are more akin to MLK's teachings and approach were to Christianity and political activism than they are to KKK. Christianity has its radical, fundamentalist, right-wing sects just like Islam does.
  • The Christian Identity Movement
  • The Aryan Nations
  • The Orange Volunteers
  • Catholic Reaction Force/Protestant Action Force
  • KKK
  • Army of God
Conservatives champion conservative Christian values, yet they are practically mum when it comes to heinous acts of violence perpetrated in defense of their god. (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-an...ight-white-men) Fox and other conservative outlets are quick and vociferous in their mentioning and ranting about Muslims, non-conservatives, or whatever else be their pet theme of the moment.

Time and time again I see conservative members on B-post ranting on about rights. For example, they are quick to defend 2nd Amendment rights. Did anyone here speak up for the 1st Amendment rights of the Muslims whom Robert Doggart, a member of the Christian National Church, sought to attack a bunch of Musilms using a "military-tested M4," machete and pistol? Where is the Fox editorial decrying his intentions?
  1. Doggart
  2. Doggart
  3. Doggart
Merely being Muslim is neither more nor less indicative of an individual's propensity for being a threat than is being a Christian, Athiest or Jew.
The movements you listed are insignificant and highly looked down upon by Christians. On the other hand, those who openly speak out against Jihadists in the Muslim community are in the minority.
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      09-23-2015, 02:22 PM   #96
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I don't know if I am sad or angry. Both I suppose, in a strange way.
That is so messed up.

http://feeds.nydailynews.com/~r/Nydn...icle-1.2371231
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      09-23-2015, 02:26 PM   #97
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And the KKK was the militant arm of the Democrats in the south.

Who says writing about a gun is not scholarly? I wrote about how the US rifles of world War 2 were one of the main reasons we were able to defeat the nazis. The gun won all our wars and allowed us to expand as a country to the west. It put food on our ancestors tables allowing them to have us. It protects us from criminals and hostile governments. It is undeniably one of the major shapers of world history for hundreds of years. Shooting was taught in high schools everywhere until the 70s unfortunately changed that. Every home in Israel is required by law to keep a full auto assault rifle. You don't see mass shootings there as a result. Even the boy scouts have shooting merit badges. Learning about guns, gun safety, and gun responsibility is like learning how to swim or how to drink responsibly. It can save you or your children's lives. Just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean they won't be exposed to them in the future by someone less responsible than you.
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      09-23-2015, 02:29 PM   #98
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I am a diabetic. Part of my burden is carrying a "kit" that contains my blood test meter, with a battery. Surrounding it are typically 2 small containers that contain my new test strips, and a similar bottle that I put the bloody used ones in.

EVERY SINGLE TIME I go to the airport, I am fully prepared that TSA should ask me to open said kit and peruse the contents, and have me explain them. Why, because in today's world, it is suspicious.

Master Ahmed has said he had reservations, he himself recognized that case looked suspicious. Why, then, is he raising a stink?

While I have never been cuffed, early in my childhood my father took me to the local jail. He had been the ADA for the city when he first started practicing law. With one of his contacts in the PD, he arranged for me to "see" the inside of a jail cell, complete with closed door. Every single time I consider bending a law, I remember that experience. I have to say it has probably kept me on the straight and narrow, a la Scared Straight.
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      09-23-2015, 02:43 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
More or less, yes. The majority of the kids you linked to are white, and they were all punished on grounds relating to "guns", ie, they don't fit into the victim narrative the left likes to push. They got a couple short-lived news stories and then disappeared. No trendy companies tripping over themselves to make it up to them, no White House invites, no real outrage. But along comes Ahmed, a little bit of confusion and no lasting damage - and everyone loses their minds! It's the same white guilt phenomena that I was talking about earlier. Ahmed isn't white, he isn't Christian and he was inconvenienced by "The Man". He must be a victim!

This is a pattern that is emerging and happening more and more frequently that concerns me. We've stopped looking at situations rationally, now we just look for something to be offended about. We also have a POTUS who was better positioned to improve race relations than any man before him, but instead he has chosen to take every opportunity to exacerbate them.

Don't think I didn't notice how you conveniently ignored the kid who wrote a story for an assignment in your assertion of what is/isn't scholarly. Very telling bit of omission there. Swapping a clock out of the factory housing and into something else with the intention of making people think you built it = scholarly. Writing a story that involves a gun to fulfill a class assignment = not scholarly.

Probably because the school was the only reasonable place to look given the circumstances. Are you really saying you reject this idea because the cops didn't profile him enough?
Red:
??? What happened to those kids is no more nor less indicative of the stupidity of the teachers and/or officials who levied suspensions against them that was the stupidity that lead to the events in Irving, TX. The problem is not whether any of them received notoriety or donations. The problem is that people who have leadership roles have those roles, yet they haven't the enough mental acuity to merit having them. I don't think every cop or every teacher is downright stupid, fails to put things in perspective, acts before thinking, and is deserving of our ridicule, but the ones who played key roles in the stories we've been discussing sure are. I am sure of that with regard to each of those children/events.

Blue:
There was nothing convenient about it. There were two express reasons I didn't. First, I couldn't find anything indicating what the kid wrote beyond the noted two sentences. Indeed, I can't find anything suggesting the kid wrote more than those two sentences. Call me unfair, but were I President, of U.S., Microsoft, or Facebook, or anything else, I would not make any sort of "noise" over two sentences unless perhaps a two year-old or younger child writes them.

So, yes, I didn't mention Master Stone. I also didn't mention him because I don't see that the kid took any initiative of any sort to write a paper (or just two sentences). He was told to write something and he did. Master Mohamed did whatever it is he did with the clock and briefcase of his own volition; he wasn't assigned to do so. The fact that he exhibited some degree initiative (no matter how little) makes it more notable than never stepping up to do something beyond what the teachers have assigned. At the very least he had to do it on his own time, outside of class. Also, I don't see anything wrong with what Master Stone wrote. I don't use Facebook, so I don't know how closely his two sentences resemble "a social media post." Even if his two sentences perfectly resemble such a post, I'm hardly going to commend him for the two he wrote; it's not as though he wrote an outstanding haiku.

Second, unlike some frequent posters on the OT sub-forums, I had no recollection of having read your comments before. So I also didn't mention Master Stone because I wanted to discover just where you stand and what level of critical, circumspective analysis you pursue when arguing a point. I wondered too if you would be gullible enough to try and make a case about my having omitted the instance of what, on the surface, might be labeled as having some sort of noteworthy academic merit. I was curious too to learn whether, seeing the omission and thinking there must be something that's "up," you'd actually check into the story and raise any relevant facts or plausible considerations questions about it. (http://www.live5news.com/story/26319...-on-assignment)
  • The Summerville police stated that the boy wasn't arrested because of the two sentences, but rather because he was being "disruptive."
  • Given that the teacher instructed the kids in the class to write a fictional story, should the police have ever been called to begin with? Should the teacher have had any concern whatsoever given the fictional nature of the sentences?
  • Might it be that the boy's behavior with the police have been the result of his being scared?
  • The boy's mother/father was not summoned to the school. All the events reported appear to have occurred absent the child's parents. That might be appropriate had the boy actually had a gun, but he didn't. All he had was an idea of a gun that was used to shoot a dinosaur.
  • What was threatening, so disturbing, about the boy's comments such that the police needed to have been summoned, but not the boy's mother?
But you didn't so much as raise one relevant or potentially exculpating or "incriminating" fact, not even one that might have been taken out of context in the hope of supporting an assertion that Master Stone deserved at least some sort of public acclaim (beyond his 15 minutes). So now I have at least one data point regarding your commitment to critically, objectively evaluating the content (both what's included and what's not) of a story/argument that comes to your attention.



Purple:
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there was no place that merited looking for explosives because there was nothing to have feared in the first place. You have a cellphone, don't you? Should I look for bombs at your place of work, or gym perhaps, merely because a cellphone can be used to trigger a bomb, even though you haven't attached the phone to one? Of course, the answer is no, and for very much the same reasons that the answer to a similar question I posed to bbbbmw is also "no."

All the best.
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      09-23-2015, 02:51 PM   #100
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Would it be possible for you to post in white?
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      09-23-2015, 03:02 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Red:
??? What happened to those kids is no more nor less indicative of the stupidity of the teachers and/or officials who levied suspensions against them that was the stupidity that lead to the events in Irving, TX. The problem is not whether any of them received notoriety or donations. The problem is that people who have leadership roles have those roles, yet they haven't the enough mental acuity to merit having them. I don't think every cop or every teacher is downright stupid, fails to put things in perspective, acts before thinking, and is deserving of our ridicule, but the ones who played key roles in the stories we've been discussing sure are. I am sure of that with regard to each of those children/events.

Blue:
There was nothing convenient about it. There were two express reasons I didn't. First, I couldn't find anything indicating what the kid wrote beyond the noted two sentences. Indeed, I can't find anything suggesting the kid wrote more than those two sentences. Call me unfair, but were I President, of U.S., Microsoft, or Facebook, or anything else, I would not make any sort of "noise" over two sentences unless perhaps a two year-old or younger child writes them.

So, yes, I didn't mention Master Stone. I also didn't mention him because I don't see that the kid took any initiative of any sort to write a paper (or just two sentences). He was told to write something and he did. Master Mohamed did whatever it is he did with the clock and briefcase of his own volition; he wasn't assigned to do so. The fact that he exhibited some degree initiative (no matter how little) makes it more notable than never stepping up to do something beyond what the teachers have assigned. At the very least he had to do it on his own time, outside of class. Also, I don't see anything wrong with what Master Stone wrote. I don't use Facebook, so I don't know how closely his two sentences resemble "a social media post." Even if his two sentences perfectly resemble such a post, I'm hardly going to commend him for the two he wrote; it's not as though he wrote an outstanding haiku.

Second, unlike some frequent posters on the OT sub-forums, I had no recollection of having read your comments before. So I also didn't mention Master Stone because I wanted to discover just where you stand and what level of critical, circumspective analysis you pursue when arguing a point. I wondered too if you would be gullible enough to try and make a case about my having omitted the instance of what, on the surface, might be labeled as having some sort of noteworthy academic merit. I was curious too to learn whether, seeing the omission and thinking there must be something that's "up," you'd actually check into the story and raise any relevant facts or plausible considerations questions about it. (http://www.live5news.com/story/26319...-on-assignment)
  • The Summerville police stated that the boy wasn't arrested because of the two sentences, but rather because he was being "disruptive."
  • Given that the teacher instructed the kids in the class to write a fictional story, should the police have ever been called to begin with? Should the teacher have had any concern whatsoever given the fictional nature of the sentences?
  • Might it be that the boy's behavior with the police have been the result of his being scared?
  • The boy's mother/father was not summoned to the school. All the events reported appear to have occurred absent the child's parents. That might be appropriate had the boy actually had a gun, but he didn't. All he had was an idea of a gun that was used to shoot a dinosaur.
  • What was threatening, so disturbing, about the boy's comments such that the police needed to have been summoned, but not the boy's mother?
But you didn't so much as raise one relevant or potentially exculpating or "incriminating" fact, not even one that might have been taken out of context in the hope of supporting an assertion that Master Stone deserved at least some sort of public acclaim (beyond his 15 minutes). So now I have at least one data point regarding your commitment to critically, objectively evaluating the content (both what's included and what's not) of a story/argument that comes to your attention.



Purple:
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there was no place that merited looking for explosives because there was nothing to have feared in the first place. You have a cellphone, don't you? Should I look for bombs at your place of work, or gym perhaps, merely because a cellphone can be used to trigger a bomb, even though you haven't attached the phone to one? Of course, the answer is no, and for very much the same reasons that the answer to a similar question I posed to bbbbmw is also "no."

All the best.
Ahmed did not build a clock. He just took the damn case off and stuck the components into something else. And why was he showing it to his English teacher? Did he show his electronics teacher his thesis on "Romeo and Juliet"? I would not be least bit surprised if all this shit was his dads idea.
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      09-23-2015, 03:27 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Red:
There was nothing convenient about it. There were two express reasons I didn't. First, I couldn't find anything indicating what the kid wrote beyond the noted two sentences. Indeed, I can't find anything suggesting the kid wrote more than those two sentences. Call me unfair, but were I President, of U.S., Microsoft, or Facebook, or anything else, I would not make any sort of "noise" over two sentences unless perhaps a two year-old or younger child writes them.
This is exactly my point. None of these children did anything (nor were they the victims of anything) that warrants the response Ahmed has got. I'm trying to understand what makes Ahmed's case so special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
Second, unlike some frequent posters on the OT sub-forums, I had no recollection of having read your comments before. So I also didn't mention Master Stone because I wanted to discover just where you stand and what level of critical, circumspective analysis you pursue when arguing a point...
I read the links you provided, it told me what I needed to know for the question I'm pursuing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
But you didn't so much as raise one relevant or potentially exculpating or "incriminating" fact, not even one that might have been taken out of context in the hope of supporting an assertion that Master Stone deserved at least some sort of public acclaim (beyond his 15 minutes). So now I have at least one data point regarding your commitment to critically, objectively evaluating the content (both what's included and what's not) of a story/argument that comes to your attention.
Again, I didn't make any of these assertions because that isn't my intention. I want to know why Ahmed is so deserving while all these other kids aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there was no place that merited looking for explosives because there was nothing to have feared in the first place.
We know that now, but hindsight is 20/20. What harm was done by being cautious about this?

Ohh, and was Doggart a government official? I don't see anything indicating he is/was; assuming he was not, your remarks about 1st Amendment Rights are woefully off the mark.

EDIT: National Review has a great article that sums up my position on this pretty well.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ive-ian-tuttle
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      09-23-2015, 03:54 PM   #103
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The movements you listed are insignificant and highly looked down upon by Christians. On the other hand, those who openly speak out against Jihadists in the Muslim community are in the minority.
Excuse me? Just because whether there are any such recriminations against Jihadists is not shared widely on Fox News doesn't mean they don't happen. That's one problem with Fox News and other conservative news outlets. What they don't share with their viewers results in those viewers espousing beliefs for which there is plenty of evidence that they should not, or at least that if they are going to have them, they need to find alternate bases for having them. Seeing as the Muslim denunciation of violence is ample and worldwide, I'd ask you why don't you know about them? Do you not read the Wall Street Journal? Perhaps other news outlets from which you get your news don't report them? Have you ever looked to see if Muslim leaders ever have denounced violence or various radical Islamic organizations?

Red:
In number or by percentage, they are neither materially more nor less significant than are radical Muslims are in the Islamic community. It's possible that you have come across some Pew Research Center reports that cite percentages well above 5% for Muslims "concerned" about extremism (or other terms). I'm not discrediting those surveys, but I will note that all the people surveyed live in Muslim countries. I'm saying they have no relevant applicability to the facts of Mr. Elhassan. Why? Because Pew didn't survey American Muslims.

Muslims in the Middle East are not terribly concerned about Muslim extremism/violence/radicals quite likely for the same reasons most Americans are not concerned about Christian radicals in U.S. I'm a moderate Christian; I really don't have any reason to be concerned about radical Christians. I'm pretty sure moderate Muslims feel the same way about radical Muslims as do I about radical Christians. Make no mistake, however. Were I, say, in Ireland in the 1970s, I'd be concerned about Christian radicals, but as an American Christian in the 1970s, those crazies in Ireland didn't concern me in the least. All the best.
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      09-23-2015, 04:37 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
This is exactly my point. None of these children did anything (nor were they the victims of anything) that warrants the response Ahmed has got. I'm trying to understand what makes Ahmed's case so special....
Well, you can stop looking. There's nothing special about his case other than that, like those other kids' cases, teachers and/or police made a mountain out of a molehill. Beyond that, Master Mohamed's having received an invitation to visit the White House, Facebook or Google is nothing more than an anomaly.

All three of my kids produced science project results more impressive than is Master Ahmed's, and not one of them got any recognition for it. One of them even did one that involved an explosion, and nobody called the police. One of my kids even did the aerosol can and cigarette lighter thing in 9th grade chemistry class. Another one of them did something very similar to this. I'm not disturbed by my kids' not having gotten White House invitations and so on. And I'm thrilled that nobody called the cops, or me to complain about it, for that matter.

Master Ahmed didn't do anything incredible, but neither did he do anything that should be discouraged.

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      09-23-2015, 05:10 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
The two of you need something that's going to help you figure out that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can expect to hold any credibility by putting everyone into tidy little boxes with labels on them. There's just no sense to that way of thinking. Both of you are leaping to conclusions and there is nothing militating for doing so.

Presumably you are Christians. If there were an abortion clinic bombing in your city, using your approach to reasoning, I should thus assume you had something to do with it simply because you live in that city too? If, furthermore, you have a leadership position in your church, I should be all the more convinced you had something to do with it. If in addition, if you happen to be a Catholic Christian, I guess I should infer further that the Pope supported the bombing.

Clearly that's not what I would think, not because I know a damn thing about either of you beyond what you've written on B-post, but rather because I have better sense than to leap to conclusions on the basis of thin, circumstantial correlations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
...
Master Mohamed's case isn't the first such knee jerk instance of people in U.S. responding irrationally toward children and their puerile behavior:
So, no, racism has nothing to do with what's gone on with Ahmed Mohamed. It's stupidity. If there's any connection with racism in this story, it's that stupidity and racism are often found in the same places and that stupidity can enable racism and it is without question the cause of irrational fear.

All the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
...You've forgotten about balloon boy, haven't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_boy_hoax

Kids maybe, but I wouldn't put it past his parents. The more I read about it the more I'm convinced it was a ploy to get their 15 min. of fame. I don't think they could have possibly known the full extent of what would happen, but I do think they manipulated the situation to get attention.

...
So why didn't any of these kids get White House invites or thousands of dollars in donations? Surely the kid who wrote the story deserves a Pulitzer or something now, right?

You have.
Red:
I haven't forgotten. I'm merely able to see the circumstances are radically different from square one. There's nothing that's even remotely typical about a 6 year-old being associated with a weather balloon, much less carried off by one.

Blue:
Wait a minute.

Are you seriously telling us that what you find disturbing enough to highlight out of all those examples, including Master Mohamed's, is whether or not any of those kids got WH invitations or donations?

The kid has generated ~$15K in crowd funding. Did those other kids/families set up crowd funding? Did they not receive private donations? I don't know. What I do know is that the crowd funding Master Mohamed has received is a publicly communicated thing. If you want someone to blame, for that, blame the people who have given to the crowd funding campaign, although it is the donor's money to give.

I don't see why you or I should have anything to say about people giving charity donations to the boy. Are you the donors' money manager or financial guardian? If you don't want to give the kid money, don't. I don't and won't. But don't complain because other people have; don't deride the kid or his family because others have. Whether they did or did not donate to Master Mohamed has zero affect on you; it has nothing to do with you.

At least the boy had something to gripe about. You're just bitching and moaning and have nothing to do with the situation, the boy, the money, the White House, Facebook, Google, etc. Give me a few minutes; I'll try to find you another windmill at which you can tilt.

However tangentially connected with an academic pursuit be Master Mohamed's clock, it's certainly more scholarly than is chewing a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun, wearing a purchased t-shirt, folding one's fingers to make a finger gun,

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And to add to this, the police were unsure there wasn't an explosive hidden somewhere on the school grounds. So in order to keep everyone safe, they cuffed the kid and conducted a search. If my kid went to that school I would applaud the police.
Red:


Why stop at the school grounds? Why not check the whole city for hidden bombs? I bet they weren't sure if there was or was not a bomb lurking in a culvert or in a manhole somewhere either. The kid's Muslim. Did the police check to make sure he hadn't crafted a bio or chemical weapon and stored it in the school's biology or chemistry labs?

Blue:
Based on the stuff I've seen you write, I do believe you would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
He's the leader (president) of the al Sufi mosque in Irving TX. Dude - what does it take? Pull your head out and look around.
Red:
I did look around, but I don't appreciate you insisting I do so merely because you haven't. "What does it take?", you asked. It takes doing more than listening to inflammatory jerks like Glen Beck and Beth Van Duyne. If you were to look at the website of the Islamic Tribunal (IT) in Irving, TX, you'd see that Mr. Elhassan isn't a part of it. You'd also find that the IT is not a Sharia Court at all.
Some media speculation has led members of the local community to wonder if the Islamic Center of Irving is facilitating “Shariah Courts” at the Mosque. The management of the Islamic Center of Irving categorically declares that no such court operates on the center’s premises. No other mosque in the area operates such courts. However, the Islamic Tribunal that operates in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, independent of the mosques.
(http://www.islamictribunal.org/)
Dude....How dare you make such vulgar insinuations and behests of me! (or anyone else) You, who have no discernible measure of circumspection with regard to anything you don't encounter from whatever reactionary sources feed their slander your way, have not the shakiest footing from which to suggest my head is stuck up my ass. You made zero effort to confirm whether the calumny you heard/read had anything more than the most oblique, circumstantial possibility of holding water. One minute's worth of checking would have shown you the IT and Mr. Elhassan have no apparent or verifiable connection other than that they both are Muslim.

Sincerely yours.
Only a fool couldn't connect these dots.
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      09-23-2015, 05:13 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by tony20009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
The movements you listed are insignificant and highly looked down upon by Christians. On the other hand, those who openly speak out against Jihadists in the Muslim community are in the minority.
Excuse me? Just because whether there are any such recriminations against Jihadists is not shared widely on Fox News doesn't mean they don't happen. That's one problem with Fox News and other conservative news outlets. What they don't share with their viewers results in those viewers espousing beliefs for which there is plenty of evidence that they should not, or at least that if they are going to have them, they need to find alternate bases for having them. Seeing as the Muslim denunciation of violence is ample and worldwide, I'd ask you why don't you know about them? Do you not read the Wall Street Journal? Perhaps other news outlets from which you get your news don't report them? Have you ever looked to see if Muslim leaders ever have denounced violence or various radical Islamic organizations?

Red:
In number or by percentage, they are neither materially more nor less significant than are radical Muslims are in the Islamic community. It's possible that you have come across some Pew Research Center reports that cite percentages well above 5% for Muslims "concerned" about extremism (or other terms). I'm not discrediting those surveys, but I will note that all the people surveyed live in Muslim countries. I'm saying they have no relevant applicability to the facts of Mr. Elhassan. Why? Because Pew didn't survey American Muslims.

Muslims in the Middle East are not terribly concerned about Muslim extremism/violence/radicals quite likely for the same reasons most Americans are not concerned about Christian radicals in U.S. I'm a moderate Christian; I really don't have any reason to be concerned about radical Christians. I'm pretty sure moderate Muslims feel the same way about radical Muslims as do I about radical Christians. Make no mistake, however. Were I, say, in Ireland in the 1970s, I'd be concerned about Christian radicals, but as an American Christian in the 1970s, those crazies in Ireland didn't concern me in the least. All the best.
Perhaps you missed the Pew study showing 88% of Egyptian Muslims and 62% of Pakistani Muslims support the death penalty for anyone leaving the Muslim faith?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...leaving-islam/
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      09-23-2015, 05:25 PM   #107
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Or this. Unlike other immigrants, muslims don't assimilate to our collective culture.
June 25, 2015
Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims
By Sierra Rayne
The Center for Security Policy (CSP) has released the results of a poll showing alarmingly high levels of support for sharia law and violence among the American Muslim community.

According to the nationwide survey, "significant minorities embrace supremacist notions that could pose a threat to America's security and its constitutional form of government."

A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."

Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."

One quarter of Muslims said that "violence against Americans here in the United States can be justified as part of the global jihad."

Even more ominous, "nearly one-fifth of Muslim respondents said that the use of violence in the United States is justified in order to make shariah the law of the land in this country," the CSP polling data showed.

When asked "if shariah conflicts with the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which law should be considered supreme?," one third of Muslim respondents said sharia.

As for their political views, 48 percent of the Muslims surveyed said they are Democrats, 19 percent are independents, and just 19 percent are Republicans.

This is not a small minority or fringe element as was suggested by the Christian groups listed which accounts for almost zero percent of Christians in the US. It's a majority.

Last edited by Fundguy1; 09-23-2015 at 05:36 PM..
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      09-23-2015, 06:12 PM   #108
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And don't tell me democratic politicians aren't at least sympathetic. Hillary Clintons top aide, who also used a personal server, and is married to anthony weiner, discraced congressman from NY, has parents that are in the Muslim Brotherhood and pledged to bringing Sharia law to America.
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      09-23-2015, 06:51 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Perhaps you missed the Pew study showing 88% of Egyptian Muslims and 62% of Pakistani Muslims support the death penalty for anyone leaving the Muslim faith?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...leaving-islam/
Are you telling us that there is freedom of religion in those countries, and thus one should.....what?

I didn't miss it because I didn't look for it. I didn't look for or at it because it's not apparent to me how what Muslims in the countries represented in the study has any direct bearing on (1) how Muslims treat/respond to people outside of their faith, or (2) Mr. Elhassan, his son or his bid for the Presidency of Sudan, or (3) what Muslims in U.S. think. Moreover, what Pakistani or Egyptian Muslims think about how to deal with other Muslims who leave the faith is even less relevant to the topic at hand and the points I was making which, to remind you, were:
  • Master Ahmed did nothing wrong.
  • What Master Ahmed did is typical of something a 14 year-old might do, even if it isn't precisely what all or even most 14 year-old actually do.
  • Mr. ElHassan, his father, is not part of a radical Muslim sect.
  • One's spiritual belief system has nothing to do with whether one should be condemned or praised in U.S.
  • Muslims, even those outside U.S. overwhelmingly reject extremism. (Pew study linked below, PDF page 29.)
BTW, the link you provided was not the study to which you referred. This is.

As is typical for most of the political posts of yours that I've read, you've failed to provide the full context. Mr. Fisher, in his article expressly wrote, "It's important to note, though, that this view is not widely held in all Muslim countries or even among Muslims in these regions." So why it is that you even mentioned the study with regard to my earlier post is unclear. Did you merely want to share arbitrary and otherwise off-point information?

Additionally, you didn't even accurately represent the information in the newspaper article to which you linked. If you look at the chart, you'll see clearly that the segment of Muslims who are of the opinion you cited are those Muslims who also believe Sharia law "should be the law of the land."

FWIW, the writer of the Post article also misrepresented the data in the chart he included with and referred to in his article. If you look at PDF page 15 in the actual study, you'll find that the figures noted in the original chart aren't even the ones cited in the study itself, even though the chart is the same one.

I didn't read the whole Pew study, but I did read the newspaper article, and I don't even see anything attesting to which "land" they had in mind when answering the question Pew asked them. All land? The land of the country in which they live? The lands comprising some or all Middle Eastern countries? All land that happens to have Muslims inhabiting it? All land on the planet? I have no idea....do you?



Note:
I presume the 88% and 62% figures are typos, in spite of the correction found at the start of the article. I don't know if they really are, but they are close enough to the figures in Pew's chart that I don't consider them materially different, so I don't care if they are typos or not. The correction for the Post article says the author extrapolated the figures he cited. Neither the article nor the correction tells us what methodology he used to perform his extrapolation, so I don't know how he got to those percentages.


Sincerely yours.

P.S./Edit
From the actual Pew study:
In most countries, Muslims are much more worried about Islamic extremists than Christian extremists. Substantial proportions in some countries, including countries surveyed in the Middle East and North Africa, express concern about both Muslim and Christian extremist groups.
Pew Study linked above, Study page 68
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      09-23-2015, 06:57 PM   #110
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Or this. Unlike other immigrants, muslims don't assimilate to our collective culture.
June 25, 2015
Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims
By Sierra Rayne
The Center for Security Policy (CSP) has released the results of a poll showing alarmingly high levels of support for sharia law and violence among the American Muslim community.

According to the nationwide survey, "significant minorities embrace supremacist notions that could pose a threat to America's security and its constitutional form of government."

A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."

Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."

One quarter of Muslims said that "violence against Americans here in the United States can be justified as part of the global jihad."

Even more ominous, "nearly one-fifth of Muslim respondents said that the use of violence in the United States is justified in order to make shariah the law of the land in this country," the CSP polling data showed.

When asked "if shariah conflicts with the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which law should be considered supreme?," one third of Muslim respondents said sharia.

As for their political views, 48 percent of the Muslims surveyed said they are Democrats, 19 percent are independents, and just 19 percent are Republicans.

This is not a small minority or fringe element as was suggested by the Christian groups listed which accounts for almost zero percent of Christians in the US. It's a majority.
Links to the sources for the information shared above?

Red:
What does that mean? In what ways do you (someone) find Muslims don't "assimilate" into American culture upon becoming citizens or permanent residents? Could you be specific in detailing what qualifies as "assimilation" and what does not?

All the best.
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