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      10-02-2015, 11:06 PM   #67
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Strict gun control also has knock-on effects, such as changing societies perception of what is acceptable, in terms of the types of guns available to the average joe.
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      10-02-2015, 11:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
No one ever said to get rid of guns. Gun control does not equate to getting rid of them, it means better background checks, registration of gun purchases, limiting people having military spec AR 15's, etc....
Tell me, what is a military spec AR 15? And in the history of the US, can you tell me how many murders have been committed with them?

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Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
Gimme a break....we're talking about murders here, not just deaths. 75% of murders are committed by GUNS

And for your stats up there, how many of those 29k suicides were committed by guns I wonder?

I grew up around guns, my father is a gunsmith and lifetime member of the NRA, but it's easy for me to recognize that gun violence is a problem in this country. The US gun murder rate is around 20 times the average than any other developed country, but that's just all hunky dory in your eyes? Stuff happens right?
They aren't my stats.

So death isn't the problem, its the method of death that's a problem in your eyes?

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Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I don't see anyone's agenda being to completely get rid of guns, that's just a fictional exaggeration the NRA likes to promote. Every country has criminals, yet we don't see the insane gun violence that we see here. 70-80% of murders are committed by non gang members, so it's not just something to blame on the criminal element
Really?! So NON-CRIMINALS are committing the majority of the murders? You don't see anyone's agenda. Do you think the agenda of the law abiding citizen is to murder people with guns?

Why did you skirt my question about punishing all muslims due to the minority extremist? Was there too much logic in that comparison?

No mater what stats you "quote" your chances of dying by gunfire isn't any higher in America than any other modern country so long as you aren't affiliated with gangs and the drug trade or are forced to live among them. Your odds of being killed in a mass shooting is lower than being killed by a falling tree.


Look.... by and large, the majority of gun murders occur in major cities. By and large the strictest gun control measures are enacted in major cities. With regards to statistics, there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics. You can take the real gun homicide figures in this country and mold and spin them to the lefts agenda and the rights agenda. But when you use common sense and figure out where the majority of murders are occurring you'll see a patten emerge. The majority of them occur in and around impoverished communities. What else do you typically find in poor communities, drugs, gangs, criminal element, strife? Add in the fact that those areas also have the strictest gun control measures already in place tells you what? Tells me that gun control doesn't work. Why? Because gun control only works on law abiding citizens.


Baltimore has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. FAR more strict than most cities and states. Have a look at what the Baltimore Sun has done with regards to murders.

Before you get to that though, i'll point out that in 2013 (the latest year the MD Governer's office has published) there were 387 homicides in all of MD.
http://www.goccp.maryland.gov/msac/crime-statistics.php

In Baltimore alone there were 224 homicides. Of those 224 homicides, 181 of them were caused by a shooting.

In a city who's state has no such prevision in it's constitution to preserve it's residents right to bear arms. To purchase a hand gun, a license is required. Hand guns are required to be registered. It carries it's own ban on "assault" weapons. They have restricted all semi-automatic weapons to 10 round magazines as well. With regards to conceal carry, it s a MAY issue state which means they don't issue unless you know the sheriff.

http://data.baltimoresun.com/bing-ma...ck&article=all
The only reason i picked Baltimore is because the Sun has kept these figures in an interactive database made public for all. Check out the filters. You can filter by year, age, gender, race, type of homicide, etc...

There is a violence problem in America and while it exists most everywhere, that violence problem is well rooted in the large, poor, inner cities.
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      10-03-2015, 08:03 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
Whether you like it or not the gun related murder rate is glaring proof that there needs to be gun control in this country.
It's been dropping steadily for 30 years. Whether you like it or not. And the places with the highest gun control laws and toughest or no carry permits have the highest number of gun murders.



Looks pretty bad in Northeast, California, Chicago, DC, NJ, NY, .... Oh, wait. Don't they have the strongest gun restrictions?

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      10-03-2015, 08:16 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
Gimme a break....we're talking about murders here, not just deaths. 75% of murders are committed by GUNS

And for your stats up there, how many of those 29k suicides were committed by guns I wonder?

I grew up around guns, my father is a gunsmith and lifetime member of the NRA, but it's easy for me to recognize that gun violence is a problem in this country. The US gun murder rate is around 20 times the average than any other developed country, but that's just all hunky dory in your eyes? Stuff happens right?
So if you don't have a gun you grab a candlestick and whack them over the head. In England with no guns they just had the same debate, but over kitchen knives. They wanted to ban pointy kitchen knives because without guns they became the weapon of choice. Guess that's next?

Sorry, but you're not going to get rid of all gun . There's 300mm of them now. Obama has been the greatest gun salesman in history the US. Also, I'm glad. I don't want to have to outsource my families protection to the cops. I personally had an intruder breaking into houses, called the cops, who took 50 min to arrive, and had to defend my house. What did I use? An AR-15;with a 30 round magazine filled with 15 hollow tips and 15 armor piercing bullets.

Last edited by Fundguy1; 10-03-2015 at 08:24 AM..
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      10-03-2015, 09:04 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
It's been dropping steadily for 30 years. Whether you like it or not. And the places with the highest gun control laws and toughest or no carry permits have the highest number of gun murders.



Looks pretty bad in Northeast, California, Chicago, DC, NJ, NY, .... Oh, wait. Don't they have the strongest gun restrictions?
lol don't let population density get in the way of your argument.

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      10-03-2015, 09:24 AM   #72
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Wow it's pretty sad state of affairs that a country is so bad that one needs to say"I need a gun to protect my family"this clearly points to a fail in the system.
People are failing to recognize that it was this sick person that made the decision to kill innocents and the fact he did it with a gun is also pointing it's just too easy for people to kill another.
If people are too stupid to recognize that all these guns that are supposedly making you safer now turn against you.......well I feel comfortable saying you deserve to get shot because you got your wish which is for the right to bear arms......well so does your crazy brother and now he wants to kill you.
When will you guys learn.
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      10-03-2015, 09:40 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protecon View Post
lol don't let population density get in the way of your argument.
You can only explain so much with little red dots. While they do correlate with population density, those areas with high rates of gun homicides are located within the areas of the country which have the strictest gun control. Population density does play a major role in violent crimes and homicide rate. But with the super tough gun laws in those areas, one my assume the gun homicide rate would be lower than it is. But that isn't the case, which is the point.

Since you missed that point, i'm assuming that you also missed that population density IS part of the argument. There are few places in the world that rival the population density and population (culture) diversity than the US. Take Aus's most populous city, Sydney. Population density is 980/sq mile, VS Baltimore which is 7,671/sq mile. Even London at 14,200/sq mile pails in comparison to NYC at 27,857/sq mile.

Add to that dense population a thriving drug trade largely controlled by gangs and you'll get high murder rates. Since only law abiding people abide by the currently very strict gun laws in those areas, you still get high gun murder rates.

The US is a unique place with it's large population, densely populated areas, drug and gang problem. It's not an easy solution, but just as we shouldn't punish and chastise Muslim people for the actions of a few crazies, we shouldn't make blanket gun laws that punish the law abiding citizens or create a means to confiscation by being on a federal list.

I'd argue that if weed was decriminalized on a federal level that we'd see the gun murder rate drop significantly. Another thing that my city has done with public housing was to destroy the massive public housing projects which were stacks of multi family buildings crammed into a very small area. Now they have expanded them over a much larger geographical area, given them names like suburban neighborhoods, and filled them with smaller multi family buildings. The aim is to spread out the the rival gang members so that their paths won't cross as much. So far it's been working well. Over all from 2002 to now, crime has dropped by about 70%. Murders and assaults by about 50% and rapes by 80%. The gangs in town are built around the drug trade and if you could go buy weed at the corner, i think you'd see the gang violence dissipate sharply.

But its hard to tell what's responsible for the decline because as mentioned, crime in this country, in all facets has been on the decline for some years now. Many believe it's due to the lack of lead based materials being used in consumer products. Who knows, maybe it's just a later, slower evolution of our society. Either way, the media hypes all this up as if it's getting worse, but it's not; violent crimes in general are all on the decline.
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      10-03-2015, 09:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
Wow it's pretty sad state of affairs that a country is so bad that one needs to say"I need a gun to protect my family"this clearly points to a fail in the system.
People are failing to recognize that it was this sick person that made the decision to kill innocents and the fact he did it with a gun is also pointing it's just too easy for people to kill another.
If people are too stupid to recognize that all these guns that are supposedly making you safer now turn against you.......well I feel comfortable saying you deserve to get shot because you got your wish which is for the right to bear arms......well so does your crazy brother and now he wants to kill you.
When will you guys learn.
Wow. Pretty brutal. We in the states prefer to stand up to aggression. Not grab our ankles and and wait for people with guns to give us our country back. Your country surrendered to aggression. You are a coward, you were born of cowards. You stood around kissing Nazi ass while they butchered your disarmed Jewish countrymen. You are dirt. Your family is dirt.
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      10-03-2015, 09:58 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
Wow it's pretty sad state of affairs that a country is so bad that one needs to say"I need a gun to protect my family"this clearly points to a fail in the system.
People are failing to recognize that it was this sick person that made the decision to kill innocents and the fact he did it with a gun is also pointing it's just too easy for people to kill another.
If people are too stupid to recognize that all these guns that are supposedly making you safer now turn against you.......well I feel comfortable saying you deserve to get shot because you got your wish which is for the right to bear arms......well so does your crazy brother and now he wants to kill you.
When will you guys learn.
Wow. Pretty brutal. We in the states prefer to stand up to aggression. Not grab our ankles and and wait for people with guns to give us our country back. Your country surrendered to aggression. You are a coward, you were born of cowards. You stood around kissing Nazi ass while they butchered your disarmed Jewish countrymen. You are dirt. Your family is dirt.
I hope you don't own a gun.
It's this kind of aggressive mentality that is your greatest weakness....yet you do not realize what you do.....just sad!
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      10-03-2015, 10:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
I hope you don't own a gun.
It's this kind of aggressive mentality that is your greatest weakness....yet you do not realize what you do.....just sad!
You just suggested that innocent kids sitting in a classroom deserved to be shot in the head. And you call me aggressive? That's rich.
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      10-03-2015, 10:20 AM   #77
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As an outsider it is amazing to me that so many can't admit that there is a problem.
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      10-03-2015, 10:21 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
I hope you don't own a gun.
It's this kind of aggressive mentality that is your greatest weakness....yet you do not realize what you do.....just sad!
You just suggested that innocent kids sitting in a classroom deserved to be shot in the head. And you call me aggressive? That's rich.
You took my post out of its intended context entirely and with guns a blazing in typical hawkish nature......I merely suggested when you make everyday people have access to guns.....don't be surprised if shit like this happens(it's called cause and effect)
Then you continue to spew shit you have no idea what your talking about....you don't know me or where I come from.....for all you know I am a Nazi.

Peace man.
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      10-03-2015, 10:33 AM   #79
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I don't know anyone who doesn't believe we have a huge problem. We have a culture problem that exposes itself in crimes like these. We've had plenty of guns in this country for a few hundred years. Yet these types of mass shootings are mostly a new phenomenon. Our country is rotting, I admit.
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      10-03-2015, 10:39 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
You took my post out of its intended context entirely and with guns a blazing in typical hawkish nature......I merely suggested when you make everyday people have access to guns.....don't be surprised if shit like this happens(it's called cause and effect)
Then you continue to spew shit you have no idea what your talking about....you don't know me or where I come from.....for all you know I am a Nazi.

Peace man.
Give me a break. You stated that you feel comfortable saying that they deserved to get shot. Your words. Peace? Go fuck yourself.
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      10-03-2015, 10:40 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman
I don't know anyone who doesn't believe we have a huge problem. We have a culture problem that exposes itself in crimes like these. We've had plenty of guns in this country for a few hundred years. Yet these types of mass shootings are mostly a new phenomenon. Our country is rotting, I admit.
Now this is the start to a positive discussion....how to fix the culture is where the keys lie.
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      10-03-2015, 10:42 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
You took my post out of its intended context entirely and with guns a blazing in typical hawkish nature......I merely suggested when you make everyday people have access to guns.....don't be surprised if shit like this happens(it's called cause and effect)
Then you continue to spew shit you have no idea what your talking about....you don't know me or where I come from.....for all you know I am a Nazi.

Peace man.
Give me a break. You stated that you feel comfortable saying that they deserved to get shot. Your words. Peace? Go fuck yourself.
Guess you can't fix stupid
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      10-03-2015, 12:38 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
Wow it's pretty sad state of affairs that a country is so bad that one needs to say"I need a gun to protect my family"this clearly points to a fail in the system.
People are failing to recognize that it was this sick person that made the decision to kill innocents and the fact he did it with a gun is also pointing it's just too easy for people to kill another.
If people are too stupid to recognize that all these guns that are supposedly making you safer now turn against you.......well I feel comfortable saying you deserve to get shot because you got your wish which is for the right to bear arms......well so does your crazy brother and now he wants to kill you.
When will you guys learn.
If I had waited for the cops they would've been cleaning up the mess and trying to figure out who murdered my family and raped my wife. Cops are the after the fact, not the prevention. Guns are banned in Mexico but gun crime and murders are out of control. It's better to have and not need than need and not have. When are you people going to learn your and your families safety is your responsibility and not the cops. Remember, a Republican is a Democrat who's been mugged and woke up. Wake up you sheep. There's wolves out there.

This is entirely a separate issue from the mass shooter phenomenon. Every instance in those it's someone with mental health issues not being reported or stopped fromantic getting access to firearms. Want to stop the mass killers? Pass laws requiring mental health physicians and service people report who is in treatment and keep a list if the for background checks. Stop them and people who live with them from having firearms.

Second, ban the gun free zones. Each time it's in a gun free zone because the crazy knows he's safe there.

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      10-03-2015, 01:00 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz View Post
Wow it's pretty sad state of affairs that a country is so bad that one needs to say"I need a gun to protect my family"this clearly points to a fail in the system.
People are failing to recognize that it was this sick person that made the decision to kill innocents and the fact he did it with a gun is also pointing it's just too easy for people to kill another.
If people are too stupid to recognize that all these guns that are supposedly making you safer now turn against you.......well I feel comfortable saying you deserve to get shot because you got your wish which is for the right to bear arms......well so does your crazy brother and now he wants to kill you.
When will you guys learn.
I wasn't going to respond to your post and hopped that none else did either because it would turn into what it did, but since the can of worms is open...

The key element to your post is in bold. Why does he want to kill me? Do you actually believe that possessing a gun makes people want to kill other people? Why would law abiding people all of a sudden want to disregard the long standing law against murder? The media and many of our politicians would have you believe that it's because of guns. The people that believe that clearly haven't the capacity to think for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
As an outsider it is amazing to me that so many can't admit that there is a problem.
America has many problems. A major one is perception being different from reality.

But if guns didn't exist, and i mean snap a finger and all the guns in the world would vanish along with the history and technology that goes with them, yes, there would be less murders overall. But that's not going to happen and the law abiding people of this country aren't going to concede to stupid laws that only affect law abiding people. We can't even stop people and drugs from crossing our souther border, what's to stop guns being included in these shipments once a thriving black market is created?

There are over 300,000,000 guns in private sector of this country. You can't put the tooth past back in the tube and confiscation would be a disaster. So find some laws that prevent the murderous actions of an infinitesimally small percentage of people without sacrificing the rights of millions and we'll go forward. It's complex for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman View Post
I don't know anyone who doesn't believe we have a huge problem. We have a culture problem that exposes itself in crimes like these. We've had plenty of guns in this country for a few hundred years. Yet these types of mass shootings are mostly a new phenomenon. Our country is rotting, I admit.
Mass murders aren't a new phenomenon at all. Not even mass murders with guns. And murders and violent crimes as a whole are and have been decreasing over the last several years.

Stop watching the news, you'll be happier.

What ever the problem is, be it the lack of lead based consumer products, or just simple societal evolution, it's getting better, despite what the figure heads and media tell us.
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      10-03-2015, 01:03 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Tell me, what is a military spec AR 15? And in the history of the US, can you tell me how many murders have been committed with them?

They aren't my stats.

So death isn't the problem, its the method of death that's a problem in your eyes?
Really? So by your assertion murder isn't a problem at all, since more people die from natural causes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Really?! So NON-CRIMINALS are committing the majority of the murders? You don't see anyone's agenda. Do you think the agenda of the law abiding citizen is to murder people with guns?
Im looking at the stats, which point to 70-75% of murders being non-gang related. What do you want me to tell you? That the FBI and CDC statistics are made up? What's everyone's agenda? When did I ever say most people want to murder people? Doesn't change the fact that it happens all the time, and it's not the gangs doing the majority of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Why did you skirt my question about punishing all muslims due to the minority extremist? Was there too much logic in that comparison?
Because it's a stupid comparison. How are you being punished by having stricter background checks and registration of your firearms? Does that really punish you? If you're being issued something that was created to kill, you should need to register it, and you should have a background check done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
No mater what stats you "quote" your chances of dying by gunfire isn't any higher in America than any other modern country so long as you aren't affiliated with gangs and the drug trade or are forced to live among them. Your odds of being killed in a mass shooting is lower than being killed by a falling tree.
You gotta be kidding me...you're 20 times more likely to be killed by a gun than the average of any other modern country. Why don't you try telling this to the parents of family members of hte people that do get murdered. NO other country has mass shootings like this with the frequency of America.And pulling this odds crap is a cop out. The odds of you being killed by a gun is much more likely than being killed by a terrorist, but does that mean terrorism isn't a problem and we should just ignore it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Look.... by and large, the majority of gun murders occur in major cities. By and large the strictest gun control measures are enacted in major cities. With regards to statistics, there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics. You can take the real gun homicide figures in this country and mold and spin them to the lefts agenda and the rights agenda. But when you use common sense and figure out where the majority of murders are occurring you'll see a patten emerge. The majority of them occur in and around impoverished communities. What else do you typically find in poor communities, drugs, gangs, criminal element, strife? Add in the fact that those areas also have the strictest gun control measures already in place tells you what? Tells me that gun control doesn't work. Why? Because gun control only works on law abiding citizens.


Baltimore has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. FAR more strict than most cities and states. Have a look at what the Baltimore Sun has done with regards to murders.

Before you get to that though, i'll point out that in 2013 (the latest year the MD Governer's office has published) there were 387 homicides in all of MD.
http://www.goccp.maryland.gov/msac/crime-statistics.php

In Baltimore alone there were 224 homicides. Of those 224 homicides, 181 of them were caused by a shooting.

In a city who's state has no such prevision in it's constitution to preserve it's residents right to bear arms. To purchase a hand gun, a license is required. Hand guns are required to be registered. It carries it's own ban on "assault" weapons. They have restricted all semi-automatic weapons to 10 round magazines as well. With regards to conceal carry, it s a MAY issue state which means they don't issue unless you know the sheriff.

http://data.baltimoresun.com/bing-ma...ck&article=all
The only reason i picked Baltimore is because the Sun has kept these figures in an interactive database made public for all. Check out the filters. You can filter by year, age, gender, race, type of homicide, etc...

There is a violence problem in America and while it exists most everywhere, that violence problem is well rooted in the large, poor, inner cities.
If gun control didn't work, countries that have stricter gun laws would have the same murder rate as the US. But they don't....it's not even close.
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      10-03-2015, 01:05 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
If I had waited for the cops they would've been cleaning up the mess and trying to figure out who murdered my family and raped my wife. Cops are the after the fact, not the prevention. Guns are banned in Mexico but gun crime and murders are out of control. It's better to have and not need than need and not have. When are you people going to learn your and your families safety is your responsibility and not the cops. Remember, a Republican is a Democrat who's been mugged and woke up. Wake up you sheep. There's wolves out there.

This is entirely a separate issue from the mass shooter phenomenon. Every instance in those it's someone with mental health issues not being reported or stopped fromantic getting access to firearms. Want to stop the mass killers? Pass laws requiring mental health physicians and service people report who is in treatment and keep a list if the for background checks. Stop them and people who live with them from having firearms.

Second, ban the gun free zones. Each time it's in a gun free zone because the crazy knows he's safe there
.
So long as that list is only used for background checks upon firearm purchases that's a great start. The slippery portion of that is what if employers get their hands on that list and use it to terminate or not hire people. Then we create another problem and exacerbate the original one.

This most recent cowardly murderer was even given advice one line to choose an easy target once he eluded to his intentions. The told him to target a girls school because it's less likely to have any that will try and stop him. There are a lot of ill people out there and it's getting more and more difficult to tell the difference between sarcasm and genuine intentions.
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      10-03-2015, 01:09 PM   #87
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When people argue that another Assault weapon ban is needed you can look at the fact that it didn't stop columbine 1999. They where able to inflict a lot of damage still. I do realize they could have done more with a AR but it did not stop anything. Then you can look at Virginia Tech 2007 where a single person killed 32 with a 9mm and 22lr pistol. Then there was the Oikos U shooting 2012 where the person killed 7 with a 45 handgun. So what have a continued AR ban have prevented? what would a 10 round magazine limit have prevented? Yes I admit there is a issue. But look at if the Government where to heavily profile every gun purchase. I guarantee that it would become a big racial debate. just look at the fact that 2 of these 3 where done by south Korean descent. Is that a factor, no. but you look at the US track record of profiling, somebody going to use it as a excuse. Oh you live in a neighborhood that has a high crime rate? Oh we wont sell to you. oh and that neighbor hood is mostly black or Hispanic, now that's racist.
What they need to do is revamp the criminal record system to where all they would need to do is put in a social and see on all databases weather or not you a clear or not, should not take anymore then a hour to complete a background check in this tech age. On states where there are 10+/- day waiting periods for background checks did not stop anything. you can look at the Virginia tech person for that. If they had it where you had to have a ATF form 4 or equivalent per purchase of any type of firearm its going make it where only the rich can afford to defend themselves.
rounding up all guns is only going to lead to chaos. criminals are still going to hold on to there's. people who commit suicide are still going to commit suicide gun or no gun. increasing bullet prices is going to make it hard for people to learn how to properly use there firearm and maintain there skills and you will probably have more stolen ammo from the military which already happens.
so the question is how would the government create a system that would be fair to law abiding citizens and stop the crazies? how many of these guys would have honestly been stopped by a bigger back ground check that didn't take thorough research into there lives like when one applies for a security clearance for a secrete or top secrete gov job that cost $100K +/-. Like a said earlier, I clearly understand there is a major issue, but how do we ethically do something with such a divided population and government?
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      10-03-2015, 01:14 PM   #88
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Yet another thread that has derailed into a political debate with personal attacks in the wake of a tragedy.

It's odd to me that the mods let trolling for arguments like this happen, even in OT...
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