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      07-18-2017, 12:54 AM   #111
JamesNoBrakes
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
There's the stupid horse analogy again. It's really silly. If EVs were better in any way than ICE you could start to make that claim, but the simple fact is they aren't, so why is this "progress"?
And yet there are EVs being used on golf courses for golf carts, in industrial applications from moving pallets to trucks, and elsewhere, because they make more sense. They offer more torque, instant torque, and can be recharged when not in use, never needing to be filled up, rebuilt, started, have belts wear out, etc. The more you keep posting, the crazier and further out you get. I'll admit that EVs don't offer advantages in every case or across the board, there are promising developments and research going on in many of these areas, but one would have to be pretty blind to not see the advantages that EVs currently offer. You do realize that there are more EVs than just the Teslas and Leaf, right? You do realize there are more EVs than just passenger cars, right? You do realize that this technology is being used in many industries and areas, right? But with your post, we are back to the horse and horseless carriage analogies. Neither future technology of airplanes or horseless carriages was any better than a horse, in fact, significantly worse, so why ever try to develop anything? It's not a silly analogy, it's exactly what you are trying to argue. Even though it's not true, there are areas where EVs have advantages, just the concept alone that "there are no advantages, it should be dropped" is ridiculous in the sense of pushing technology and developing it. A far better idea would be to look at the rate of improvement with a certain technology as it's developed, so EVs have significant improved in terms of range and practicality in the last 10 years and from this point on, we'll likely see improvements in many areas that are not linear, based on tech that's being developed and on the horizon. One can stand around with their fingers in their ears I suppose and pretend the world can stand still for them, but many of us want to see things continue to improve.
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      07-18-2017, 03:26 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Dont get me started on the USPS let alone the bloated costs
What's wrong with the post office? They deliver six days a week in the rain, sleet, snow. My mail shows up every day, never lost. USPS employees work hard, for life. The post office operates at a loss because of their retirement costs.
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      07-18-2017, 05:46 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
And yet there are EVs being used on golf courses for golf carts, in industrial applications from moving pallets to trucks, and elsewhere, because they make more sense. They offer more torque, instant torque, and can be recharged when not in use, never needing to be filled up, rebuilt, started, have belts wear out, etc. The more you keep posting, the crazier and further out you get. I'll admit that EVs don't offer advantages in every case or across the board, there are promising developments and research going on in many of these areas, but one would have to be pretty blind to not see the advantages that EVs currently offer. You do realize that there are more EVs than just the Teslas and Leaf, right? You do realize there are more EVs than just passenger cars, right? You do realize that this technology is being used in many industries and areas, right? But with your post, we are back to the horse and horseless carriage analogies. Neither future technology of airplanes or horseless carriages was any better than a horse, in fact, significantly worse, so why ever try to develop anything? It's not a silly analogy, it's exactly what you are trying to argue. Even though it's not true, there are areas where EVs have advantages, just the concept alone that "there are no advantages, it should be dropped" is ridiculous in the sense of pushing technology and developing it. A far better idea would be to look at the rate of improvement with a certain technology as it's developed, so EVs have significant improved in terms of range and practicality in the last 10 years and from this point on, we'll likely see improvements in many areas that are not linear, based on tech that's being developed and on the horizon. One can stand around with their fingers in their ears I suppose and pretend the world can stand still for them, but many of us want to see things continue to improve.
Yes, they have been around as golf carts etc for decades. Because tgey make sense in those applications. Golf carts travel small distances so never need to worry about range. They are also quiet which is a priority. That's why they gave been in that role for over half a century but not in the role of daily driver. They've come a long way but aren't yet near an ice for family transport. What you are saying is someday it may surpass ice, so ice is obsolete. Make that argument when it happens. Not decades before it might.
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      07-18-2017, 06:19 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
And yet there are EVs being used on golf courses for golf carts, in industrial applications from moving pallets to trucks, and elsewhere, because they make more sense. They offer more torque, instant torque, and can be recharged when not in use, never needing to be filled up, rebuilt, started, have belts wear out, etc. The more you keep posting, the crazier and further out you get. I'll admit that EVs don't offer advantages in every case or across the board, there are promising developments and research going on in many of these areas, but one would have to be pretty blind to not see the advantages that EVs currently offer. You do realize that there are more EVs than just the Teslas and Leaf, right? You do realize there are more EVs than just passenger cars, right? You do realize that this technology is being used in many industries and areas, right? But with your post, we are back to the horse and horseless carriage analogies. Neither future technology of airplanes or horseless carriages was any better than a horse, in fact, significantly worse, so why ever try to develop anything? It's not a silly analogy, it's exactly what you are trying to argue. Even though it's not true, there are areas where EVs have advantages, just the concept alone that "there are no advantages, it should be dropped" is ridiculous in the sense of pushing technology and developing it. A far better idea would be to look at the rate of improvement with a certain technology as it's developed, so EVs have significant improved in terms of range and practicality in the last 10 years and from this point on, we'll likely see improvements in many areas that are not linear, based on tech that's being developed and on the horizon. One can stand around with their fingers in their ears I suppose and pretend the world can stand still for them, but many of us want to see things continue to improve.
I'd like to counter. I've worked in a few factories in my time and I recently bought a golf cart (electric) for my wife to get around the property, so I looked over the various golf cart models availble. The factories I worked in the majority of the movement equipment, fork trucks and such were propane fueled, not electric. The reason why movement equipment in factories are fueled other than with gasoline (electric and propane) is due to exhaust emissions and fire hazard, not because electric drive is better. There are plenty of golf cart models that are petroleum fueled.

The element of your diatribe you leave out is cost. There are Tesla's, Leafs, Bolts, i3s, iMEVs, sure, but their market share is minuscule even after the technology has been available for over a decade. Bolts and Tesla's have big-ass batteries, which gives them their range. All of those vehicles pretty much exist because of the plug-in EV ($7,500) tax credit. Tesla's are $100,000 cars (nominal transaction price per Musk). The take up rate on Bolts is not game-changing even though it's a damned good car. The EV market is somewhat artificial because it is supported by monetary and guilt-laden environmental incentives offered by Government that play off the hologram that is globalwarmingclimatechange fear.

The horse analogy is based on the fact that the automobile was a replacement technology to the horse because it offered better performance, more range, less maintenance, and at a lower cost. The BEV is competing with a same transportation technology and offers none of what the automobile offered vs. the horse, save maintenance probably; but cars are pretty much maintenance free anyway.
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      07-18-2017, 06:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Fixed that for you

Well, I didn't what to drop the f-bomb
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      07-18-2017, 06:32 AM   #116
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What's wrong with the post office? They deliver six days a week in the rain, sleet, snow. My mail shows up every day, never lost. USPS employees work hard, for life. The post office operates at a loss because of their retirement costs.
Not to flame, but I think that is fbsm's point.
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      07-18-2017, 07:06 AM   #117
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Not to flame, but I think that is fbsm's point.
The loss is because of the union. My wife works there. She says 1/2 to 2/3 just go through the motions, do minimal work, and hide behind the union to stop frim being fired. Personal calls, phone surfing, heck one clerk tried to run over another she was mad at and they only moved them to different locations. Then throw in the Cadillac healthcare for pennies, which I enjoy, and all the retirement benefits, etc, and there's no way they can operate at a profit. Just another reason government unions should be repealed. They didn't exist until the 60s. There was never a reason for them. One of the government's jobs is to protect workers. Unions were created to protect workers from employers before there were laws to do so like minimum wages, worker safety, etc. So why would you need a union to protect yourself from the government? Zero reason. They exist only to increase government workers pay and benefits , not to protect workers from an oppressive employer. And since the law was passed in the 60s, government union workers outnumber private sector workers. The usps is paralyzed by the unions. Until its gone, expect it to operate at a loss.
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      07-18-2017, 08:46 AM   #118
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The horse analogy is based on the fact that the automobile was a replacement technology to the horse because it offered better performance, more range, less maintenance, and at a lower cost. The BEV is competing with a same transportation technology and offers none of what the automobile offered vs. the horse, save maintenance probably; but cars are pretty much maintenance free anyway.
This......so few people pick up on this point.....

The EV doesnt even come close to matching the functionality of the conventional motor vehicle.......and its more expensive
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      07-18-2017, 10:22 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post

The horse analogy is based on the fact that the automobile was a replacement technology to the horse because it offered better performance, more range, less maintenance, and at a lower cost. The BEV is competing with a same transportation technology and offers none of what the automobile offered vs. the horse, save maintenance probably; but cars are pretty much maintenance free anyway.
Huh? This is so far out in left field it's simply amazing that people will say anything to protect their beliefs.

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Early experimenters used gases. In 1806, Swiss engineer François Isaac de Rivaz built an engine powered by internal combustion of a hydrogen and oxygen mixture. In 1826, Englishman Samuel Brown tested his hydrogen-fuelled internal combustion engine by using it to propel a vehicle up Shooter's Hill in south-east London. Belgian-born Etienne Lenoir's Hippomobile with a hydrogen-gas-fuelled one-cylinder internal combustion engine made a test drive from Paris to Joinville-le-Pont in 1860, covering some nine kilometres in about three hours.[16] A later version was propelled by coal gas. A Delamare-Deboutteville vehicle was patented and trialled in 1884.
Better performance, more range, better maintenance, and all that stuff, didn't come until long after horseless carriages started showing up. Horses weren't replaced by them until many many years later (30-40 years for mass produced ICE?) and longer I'm sure in more rural areas. You seem to have this perception that as soon as horseless carriages showed up they were all toyota corollas or something...I'm not sure how many times I can explain this to you. At the time of course, people saw the potential of the ICE engine vs. horses, that eventually the technology would offer better performance, better range, better reliability, etc., but that didn't come until much later.

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Popular histories of technology typically tell the stories of intrepid inventors whose clever machines changed the world by dint of their manifest usefulness or their inherent fascination. But no machine, no matter how clever, can conquer the world by itself. It needs promoters and enthusiasts. As it turned out, there was a vast market for automobiles as practical vehicles for transporting people and goods, but that market did not exist at the outset of the automobile age. The machines were too inefficient, unreliable, and expensive, and, more important, the established vectors of transportation had to be rearranged before the new machines could take control. Above all, this meant that roads—and ultimately cities—had to be rebuilt to accommodate the new vehicles. What bridged the gap between the invention and its practical, everyday use were the enthusiasts.

They appeared during the 1890s, especially in France, where the firm of Panhard & Levassor licensed Daimler’s engine. Paris and the French Riviera were the first places where cars became fashionable. (The French influence is apparent in the fact that many languages have adopted the French word “automobile,” not to mention “chauffeur” and “garage”—although speakers of other tongues stopped short of calling their motor fuel “essence.” In the early years, there also seems to have been less opposition to car use in France than in neighboring lands.) As the first cars wheezed down city streets, they drew crowds of the curious and the enthralled, and early auto races demonstrated the thrilling possibilities of road travel at breathtaking speeds—as fast as a train, but free of tracks, locomotives, and engineers. Wealthy and adventurous men (and a few women) in many lands began to acquire their own automobiles and to venture around town and across the countryside in them.

For the early enthusiasts, speed was the key attraction, coupled with the sense of individual mastery that came with driving. The railroad had long given people the chance to move across the earth at breathtaking speeds, but its path was restricted to its rails and its control to a professional engineer, with passengers confined to a passive role. Cars promised a different experience—not, for many years to come, a more comfortable journey, but rather a more exhilarating one. In the 1890s, when most people were no more likely to drive a car than to ride a racehorse, auto races promised thrills for a few drivers as well as crowds of onlookers. Crashes were common, often fatal, and part of the excitement of the race. The machine’s power—the power of life and death—depended on an individual driver, a role to which anyone could aspire. Soon the airplane would come along to offer some of the same thrills, but only for a select few, and not in the narrow confines of city streets or country lanes. The automobile, by contrast, let ordinary people (or at least ordinary people with money) take control of a speeding vehicle on familiar roads, with exciting and often disastrous results.
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      07-18-2017, 10:33 AM   #120
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      07-18-2017, 10:35 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post



Better performance, more range, better maintenance, and all that stuff, didn't come until long after horseless carriages started showing up. Horses weren't replaced by them until many many years later (30-40 years for mass produced ICE?) and longer.
Didnt you just refute your own argument FOR EV's and reinforce the argument we've all been putting forth as to WHY we're not interested in EV's for the forseeable future?

Just curious....were there subsidies for horseless carriages 100 years ago?

We're back to the notion that people readily adopt "Good Ideas'

When the next modality of transportation comes along that is:

Less Expensive
More convenient
Faster
More Efficient]
More Fun
etc etc et

THEN and ONLY then will the majority of folks give that widget any consideration
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      07-18-2017, 10:59 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post



Better performance, more range, better maintenance, and all that stuff, didn't come until long after horseless carriages started showing up. Horses weren't replaced by them until many many years later (30-40 years for mass produced ICE?) and longer.
Didnt you just refute your own argument FOR EV's and reinforce the argument we've all been putting forth as to WHY we're not interested in EV's for the forseeable future?

Just curious....were there subsidies for horseless carriages 100 years ago?

We're back to the notion that people readily adopt "Good Ideas'

When the next modality of transportation comes along that is:

Less Expensive
More convenient
Faster
More Efficient]
More Fun
etc etc et

THEN and ONLY then will the majority of folks give that widget any consideration
Sort of the beauty of the Model S. It's compares very favorably to the 7er, S and A8. It's certainly quicker than any near its price and even the much costlier versions.

None of those cars is particularly fun, or about that, so it competes favorably there too.

It's almost amazingly humorous that the anti EV set doesn't get that the six seconds of plugging your car in inside your garage is a wee bit more convenient than hanging out for five plus minutes at a gas station with the lotto ticket and cigarette buying riff raff.

For many of us lefties, our utilities are cleaner than what a low 20's mpg large German sedan would ever hope to achieve.

So the S ticks all of your boxes compared to the Germans. Sure parts of the interior are chintzy, but each of the Germans has a kludgy interface, requires trips to the dealer for service, updates and even some functionality changes that they won't trust the owner to do themselves.

Now to be fair, the Model 3 will have a tougher fight, as its competing against much sportier cars and won't have quite the price advantage of the Model S.

As for range, my wife hasn't driven more than 300 miles in a week in maybe five years. So that's one night's charge. Range is an absolute non issue for probably 95% of folks living in urban areas.
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      07-18-2017, 11:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Sort of the beauty of the Model S. It's compares very favorably to the 7er, S and A8. It's certainly quicker than any near its price and even the much costlier versions.

None of those cars is particularly fun, or about that, so it competes favorably there too.

It's almost amazingly humorous that the anti EV set doesn't get that the six seconds of plugging your car in inside your garage is a wee bit more convenient than hanging out for five plus minutes at a gas station with the lotto ticket and cigarette buying riff raff.

For many of us lefties, our utilities are cleaner than what a low 20's mpg large German sedan would ever hope to achieve.

So the S ticks all of your boxes compared to the Germans. Sure parts of the interior are chintzy, but each of the Germans has a kludgy interface, requires trips to the dealer for service, updates and even some functionality changes that they won't trust the owner to do themselves.

Now to be fair, the Model 3 will have a tougher fight, as its competing against much sportier cars and won't have quite the price advantage of the Model S.

As for range, my wife hasn't driven more than 300 miles in a week in maybe five years. So that's one night's charge. Range is an absolute non issue for probably 95% of folks living in urban areas.
I get that you're fascinated with EV's

But you seem to miss all of the correllaries

You need to massively plan according to charging stations/range from home.....especially on non local trips

Finding someone to work on the vehicle is a royal pain in the arse.....to say the least....parts are even worse when needed.

It has half the range as my daily driver which I can push 600 miles from if I want.....doesnt matter whether its summer or winter

It costs a shitload more than my ICE/CI vehicle

The list goes on....

Like I said....people readily adopt good ideas.....EV's are a novelty rather than a good idea for the vast majority of folks.

If it floats your boat thats great....but dont expect the rest of us to subsidize you
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      07-18-2017, 11:29 AM   #124
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Let's be honest for a moment. EVs are happening and will continue to happen. Technology, infrastructure, and cost will all continue to improve. Even BMW is dumping a ton of money into electrification. Are we there yet? No. I have an i3 as well and I can't recommend it. I love ICE cars, but I realize those have a shelf life and will expire. 10 years, doubt it. 50 years, almost definitely.
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      07-18-2017, 11:37 AM   #125
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Let's be honest for a moment. EVs are happening and will continue to happen. Technology, infrastructure, and cost will all continue to improve. Even BMW is dumping a ton of money into electrification. Are we there yet? No. I have an i3 as well and I can't recommend it. I love ICE cars, but I realize those have a shelf life and will expire. 10 years, doubt it. 50 years, almost definitely.
If EV's are so wonderful then they dont need to be subsidized by taxpayers.....they should be successful based on their own merits right?
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      07-18-2017, 11:45 AM   #126
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If EV's are so wonderful then they dont need to be subsidized by taxpayers.....they should be successful based on their own merits right?
People don't like change and the technology needs a boost to get adoption. It's expensive. My i3 received about $10k in lease subsidies on top of a whopping 67% lease residual. Truthfully the only way I would accept it was because of the $170/month payment with $0 down. It's an interesting car, but not particularly great. As the technology develops the need for subsidies will drop.

Let's say the Tesla 3 delivers a quality car for $35k. I agree, the subsidies can drop because the car can stand on it's own merits.
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      07-18-2017, 11:50 AM   #127
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People don't like change and the technology needs a boost to get adoption. It's expensive. My i3 received about $10k in lease subsidies on top of a whopping 67% lease residual. Truthfully the only way I would accept it was because of the $170/month payment with $0 down. It's an interesting car, but not particularly great. As the technology develops the need for subsidies will drop.

Let's say the Tesla 3 delivers a quality car for $35k. I agree, the subsidies can drop because the car can stand on it's own merits.
Either its a "Good Idea" that people will readily adopt based on its own merits OR its not

If it requires government to step in and steal from one group to give to others in order to sufficiently incentivize sales then its a "Bad Idea"
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      07-18-2017, 11:58 AM   #128
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Either its a "Good Idea" that people will readily adopt based on its own merits OR its not

If it requires government to step in and steal from one group to give to others in order to sufficiently incentivize sales then its a "Bad Idea"
Yeah, going to have to disagree here, but I can understand your point. Some good ideas need help getting off the ground. Nature of the beast. EV subsidies, limited in nature (time), is one I can agree with. Part of my viewpoint is living in LA during the 80s. Cleaner air is important to me, but probably less so in other areas.
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      07-18-2017, 12:17 PM   #129
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Oil has it's own subsidies-- not to mention decades of wars to ensure an ongoing supply. Sure would be great to be sending less money to the middle east
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      07-18-2017, 12:29 PM   #130
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Yeah, going to have to disagree here, but I can understand your point. Some good ideas need help getting off the ground. Nature of the beast. EV subsidies, limited in nature (time), is one I can agree with. Part of my viewpoint is living in LA during the 80s. Cleaner air is important to me, but probably less so in other areas.
Totally agree

But the job of government isnt to steal from one group of taxpayers to get a business/idea off the ground

Thats what Investors are for.......

Every time governments try to pick winners/losers we end up with perverted markets, increased cost and everything turns to shit and requires additional taxpayer costs in the form of bailouts

People readily adopt good ideas on their own free of coercion

You want an electric car thats great.....but dont expect the rest of us to subsidize your decisions
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      07-18-2017, 12:34 PM   #131
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Oil has it's own subsidies-- not to mention decades of wars to ensure an ongoing supply. Sure would be great to be sending less money to the middle east
I think you're referring to tax deductions....and those deductions are the same ones that every other company in the US has avail to them
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      07-18-2017, 12:54 PM   #132
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This thread is a shit show.

I hope electric vehicles grow and thrive because the world needs to curb its oil demand substantially or there won't be much of a world left in 100 years. Natural gas is a good start. EVs are a good start. Solar is a good start. But, people who can't see that we need to make a change now should be castrated.
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