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      09-17-2019, 03:02 PM   #1
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Trump administration to revoke California's authority to set stricter auto emissions

The move sets up a massive legal fight between the federal government and the nation's most populous state, which for decades has exercised authority to put in place more stringent fuel economy standards.

Thirteen states and the District of Columbia have vowed to adopt California's standards if they diverge from the federal government, as have several major automakers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ons-standards/
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      09-17-2019, 03:20 PM   #2
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The administration doesn't have a chance in hell to revoke this authority. States have full written authority to enact environmental regulations that are more stringent that Federal regulations. They can't be less strict, but they can be more strict.

CA is going to do what is best for it's people, their health, and the state's environment. Largely because of geography and population density, many of its cities fail federal and state air quality requirements. People get sick and have lingering/long-term effects. There's a huge human and financial cost. Cars are still one of the major contributors of air pollution in CA. It's not their fault that so many people like living in CA.

If automakers want to sell cars in CA, then they can work with CA so that the cars either meet the CA-specific regs or the parties work towards a compromise. This a fight between CA and the automakers and the administration should stay out of it.
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      09-17-2019, 03:26 PM   #3
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I have mixed emotions on this. On the one hand, having CARB requirements makes vehicles more expensive for everyone, since they have to abide by different sets of regulations for the same country.

On the other hand, the States should have the authority to do pretty much whatever they want, barring the printing of currency or establishing treaties.

I doubt this will ultimately go anywhere.
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      09-17-2019, 03:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
The administration doesn't have a chance in hell to revoke this authority. States have full written authority to enact environmental regulations that are more stringent that Federal regulations. They can't be less strict, but they can be more strict.

CA is going to do what is best for it's people, their health and the states environment. Because of geography, many of its cities fail federal and state air quality requirements. People get sick and have lingering/long-term effects. Cars are still one of the major contributors of air pollution in CA. It's not their fault that so many people like living in CA.

If automakers want to sell cars in CA, then they can work with CA so that the cars meet the CA-specific regs. This a fight between CA and the automakers and the administration should stay out of it.
Without getting too far into the weeds, State laws only prevail over Federal if the State law gives the public MORE rights, NOT LESS rights, as would be the case in the above.

More stringent = less rights.
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      09-17-2019, 03:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Without getting too far into the weeds, State laws only prevail over Federal if the State law gives the public MORE rights, NOT LESS rights, as would be the case in the above.

More stringent = less rights.
The problem with your argument, is that both sides of the equation can argue "more rights".

The more stringent regulations gave California citizens "more" rights to clean air, "more" rights less pollution, and so forth.

Not saying I don't agree with you, just playing devils' advocate. Bottom line, though, is that I don't really have a problem with CARB. States can choose to be as nuts as they want. Folks can choose to move. This is why I don't live in CA or any other liberal bastion.
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      09-17-2019, 04:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Without getting too far into the weeds, State laws only prevail over Federal if the State law gives the public MORE rights, NOT LESS rights, as would be the case in the above.

More stringent = less rights.
That's not true the more strict is what is applied. If your state is more strict than federal you cant just obey federal and not be in violation of the law.
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      09-17-2019, 04:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Without getting too far into the weeds, State laws only prevail over Federal if the State law gives the public MORE rights, NOT LESS rights, as would be the case in the above.

More stringent = less rights.
The problem with your argument, is that both sides of the equation can argue "more rights".

The more stringent regulations gave California citizens "more" rights to clean air, "more" rights less pollution, and so forth.

Not saying I don't agree with you, just playing devils' advocate. Bottom line, though, is that I don't really have a problem with CARB. States can choose to be as nuts as they want. Folks can choose to move. This is why I don't live in CA or any other liberal bastion.
https://theconversation.com/why-cali...answered-94379

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Without getting too far into the weeds, State laws only prevail over Federal if the State law gives the public MORE rights, NOT LESS rights, as would be the case in the above.

More stringent = less rights.
That's not true the more strict is what is applied. If your state is more strict than federal you cant just obey federal and not be in violation of the law.
Check your sources when it comes to the Supremacy Clause

Suggest you also read this 2014 Huffington Post opinion.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state...9?guccounter=1
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      09-17-2019, 04:33 PM   #8
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ah the law and how grey it is
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      09-17-2019, 05:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
https://theconversation.com/why-cali...answered-94379


Check your sources when it comes to the Supremacy Clause

Suggest you also read this 2014 Huffington Post opinion.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state...9?guccounter=1

So - just so I can be clear - you want the Federal Government to be able to overrule states rights? Cause if so, dammit man - that is one slippery ass slope.

Gonna be a no for me, dog.
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      09-17-2019, 05:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
https://theconversation.com/why-cali...answered-94379


Check your sources when it comes to the Supremacy Clause

Suggest you also read this 2014 Huffington Post opinion.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state...9?guccounter=1

So - just so I can be clear - you want the Federal Government to be able to overrule states rights? Cause if so, dammit man - that is one slippery ass slope.

Gonna be a no for me, dog.
I have not expressed what I want....only facts and the law.

This was posted in Automotive News and mods immediately moved to the politics topic and that's not where I posted it.

As if this isn't automotive news.
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      09-17-2019, 05:16 PM   #11
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[personal thought]I think this is an interesting case and I'm not sure which way I'm leaning. I never really considered this scenario for myself. For something as specific as this I'm not sure if this should be a federal or a state thing.

This is why I like the US system. It's complex, yet interesting[/personal thought]

Sorry, just dumping this here as a bit of a note to self, not so much to start a discussion (but don't let that stop you) /ramble
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      09-17-2019, 05:29 PM   #12
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And yet marijuana, still a federal schedule 1, is legal here.

Much like the recent state rent-control issue, "As California goes, so goes the nation"
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      09-17-2019, 05:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
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And yet marijuana, still a federal schedule 1, is legal here.

Much like the recent state rent-control issue, "As California goes, so goes the nation"
Read what I posted above about expanding people's rights in the 4th post.

Also read the Huffington Post link above.
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      09-17-2019, 05:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Read what I posted above about expanding people's rights in the 4th post.

Also read the Huffington Post link above.
Ain't nobody got time for readin
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      09-17-2019, 05:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Read what I posted above about expanding people's rights in the 4th post.

Also read the Huffington Post link above.
Ain't nobody got time for readin
That's why you don't get the law.

Spoken like a true Californian.
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      09-17-2019, 05:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
That's why you don't get the law.

Spoken like a true Californian.
If only you knew.

Even better, born in DC before moving to Cali when less than 2yo, 50+ years ago. Only moved here once my dad passed the bar.
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      09-17-2019, 05:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
That's why you don't get the law.

Spoken like a true Californian.
If only you knew.

Even better, born in DC before moving to Cali when less than 2yo, 50+ years ago. Only moved here once my dad passed the bar.
Clearly you did not take after your Father....reading before speaking nor understanding the law.

That obviously did pass down to the next generation.
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      09-17-2019, 05:50 PM   #18
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I thought we agreed that = sarcasm icon

In all seriousness, I had to be his intern/secretary at an early age, and decided there was no way on God's green Earth I was going into law. So I'm a computer geek instead. Not that ANY of this is germane to the discussion at hand, so I will see myself out
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      09-17-2019, 05:51 PM   #19
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States Rights !!!!! .....oh wait. Uhhh..hmmm Oh look over there! It's a squirrel!
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      09-17-2019, 06:35 PM   #20
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If they are preventing cars from other states entering their state via purchases or transportation then i believe trump has a case if it just a law for intrastate sales then i think cali will win

I believe this is the key point
"Ford, Honda, Volkswagen and BMW of North America — under which they pledged to produce fleets averaging nearly 50 mpg by model year 2026."

By them forcing companies that work outside their jurisdiction to have their entire manufacturing to comply with california standard the a breach of interstate regualation and environmental regulations that falls under the fed at the moment. If they simple said you can't sell vehical that doesn't meet this standard then that within California jurisdiction but with them saying all production that them over stepping.

While they are at it they can sue califormia for going below the federal standard on driver licenses, drug laws, and immigration laws.

Last edited by NormanConquest; 09-17-2019 at 06:48 PM..
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      09-17-2019, 06:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post

I believe this is the key point
"Ford, Honda, Volkswagen and BMW of North America — under which they pledged to produce fleets averaging nearly 50 mpg by model year 2026."
50 mpg by 2026?

It's 55mpg by 2025 Model Year which could be as early as 1/1/2024 (unless it's been changed).

https://www.npr.org/2012/08/28/16019...nder-new-rules


Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post

While they are at it they can sue califormia for going below the federal standard on driver licenses, drug laws, and immigration laws.
As noted previously, the things you have listed give more rights, not less, so State should prevail in those cases.
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      09-17-2019, 07:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
50 mpg by 2026?

It's 55mpg by 2025 Model Year which could be as early as 1/1/2024 (unless it's been changed).

https://www.npr.org/2012/08/28/16019...nder-new-rules


As noted previously, the things you have listed give more rights, not less, so State should prevail in those cases.
Total manufacture effect outside of California
Total intrastate sale mpg will effect california only which is within their right
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