[MilehighM3]

I'm not positive but I believe Tesla is using permanent magnet motors in all of their models still. BMW went to an electromagnet in the iX and i4 for better control of the performance in mid to higher speed ranges. Not to mention it's more sustainable since there's no mining for rare materials. It'll be interesting to see a roll race between the direct competitors. We know Tesla is great off the line but not so much from a roll. The deciding factor for me would be the interior quality. The BMW is so far ahead that Stevie Wonder can see the difference.

[M3lbournE92]

Lots of hate on the model 3, but understandable coming from petrol heads. That said, you guys are missing out on a terrific commuter car. I have the best of both worlds, Tesla model 3 performance as a daily and a E92 M3 Harrop Supercharged as a weekend warrior. I am actually happy BMW is making high performance electric cars. All this competition should push manufactures to make better EV's.

As per this thread, I think the Tesla you used was a little slow. I ran my car at the drag strip and constantly ran 1/4 mile times in the low 11.4's @ 118-119. My speedo is accurate as I verified it using the gps on my phone, but if this new bmw is anything like my bmw from the past, the speedo may be reading a little higher speed than your actual speed. Feel free to use my video if you want, but it is in MPH not KPH.

[JCLBoston]

Originally Posted by M3lbournE92

Lots of hate on the model 3, but understandable coming from petrol heads. That said, you guys are missing out on a terrific commuter car. I have the best of both worlds, Tesla model 3 performance as a daily and a E92 M3 Harrop Supercharged as a weekend warrior. I am actually happy BMW is making high performance electric cars. All this competition should push manufactures to make better EV's.

Haha, it's not hard at all to find toxic haters everywhere. I also have both BMW and Tesla and hear the worst from all extremists: petrol heads, greenpeace environmentalists, Tesla fanbois, BMW fanbois, etc.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

The current reviews have the M50 at 3.6/7.
Plenty fast enough for reaction time to matter a lot.

The TM3P is 3.1. The power to weight/torque is almost identical between the cars

A car is more than 0-60 times.

Stand a peeled boiled egg.on end, slice straight down, then lay it on the cut you just made..... Model 3/Y.

Yuck.

Right, it is more than 0-60

So what about the range?
What about self driving?
What about fast charging stations?

The i4 is a good effort and looks very nice for an EV but by most specs it can't even match/beat the M3P :

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by JCLBoston

Haha, it's not hard at all to find toxic haters everywhere. I also have both BMW and Tesla and hear the worst from all extremists: petrol heads, greenpeace environmentalists, Tesla fanbois, BMW fanbois, etc.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JCLBoston

Haha, it's not hard at all to find toxic haters everywhere. I also have both BMW and Tesla and hear the worst from all extremists: petrol heads, greenpeace environmentalists, Tesla fanbois, BMW fanbois, etc.

I guess you could add me (a one-time Model 3 early-deposit submitter) in another category to the list...quality demanders. I'm in the "anything but Tesla" EV category now. Maybe if they learn better how to design and assemble in their next gen products.....?

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Right, it is more than 0-60

So what about the range?
What about self driving?
What about fast charging stations?

The i4 is a good effort and looks very nice for an EV but by most specs it can't even match/beat the M3P :

Range?
I'm fine with 250ish. my daughter has a bolt and it's 250ish. It works for what I do. works better now since my commute is to my home office.

Charging? Meh. I haven't done any road trips in the 335 I owned for 11 years. Furthest I've driven that car in a day is about 1/2 tank. I have an X5 which is much better for road trips.

Self driving? You are kidding? Tesla ADAS is Level 2 and nowhere near "self driving". I have been working on ASIL (Automotive Safety) for years and before that fault tolerant computing. I have designed processors for ASIL-D applications. I'm fully trained in ISO26262.

Tesla is not better than BMW ADAS and is probably worse. Tesla relies on cameras alone and eliminated Lidar/Radar which means that fog and rain cause issues. Full self driving requires redundancy. Tesla has no redundancy in it's vision system. It's a hands on system.

Cruise is a better system. GM is ahead of Tesla and so are other companies. Tesla just does a real good marking job for tech that it doesn't have.

Tesla quietly pushed an update because cars were running into emergency vehicles. NTHSA is opening an investigation.

Repeat after me. Tesla auto pilot and full self driving isn't.

The M3P has no car play, no HUD, no active suspension (cost reasons), camera only ADAS, has suspect build.quality.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I guess you could add me (a one-time Model 3 early-deposit submitter) in another category to the list...quality demanders. I'm in the "anything but Tesla" EV category now. Maybe if they learn better how to design and assemble in their next gen products.....?

Design...I'm ok with. Assembly? Yup....

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Range?
I'm fine with 250ish. my daughter has a bolt and it's 250ish. It works for what I do. works better now since my commute is to my home office.

Charging? Meh. I haven't done any road trips in the 335 I owned for 11 years. Furthest I've driven that car in a day is about 1/2 tank. I have an X5 which is much better for road trips.

Self driving? You are kidding? Tesla ADAS is Level 2 and nowhere near "self driving". I have been working on ASIL (Automotive Safety) for years and before that fault tolerant computing. I have designed processors for ASIL-D applications. I'm fully trained in ISO26262.

Tesla is not better than BMW ADAS and is probably worse. Tesla relies on cameras alone and eliminated Lidar/Radar which means that fog and rain cause issues. Full self driving requires redundancy. Tesla has no redundancy in it's vision system. It's a hands on system.

Cruise is a better system. GM is ahead of Tesla and so are other companies. Tesla just does a real good marking job for tech that it doesn't have.

Tesla quietly pushed an update because cars were running into emergency vehicles. NTHSA is opening an investigation.

Repeat after me. Tesla auto pilot and full self driving isn't.

The M3P has no car play, no HUD, no active suspension (cost reasons), camera only ADAS, has suspect build.quality.

Charging is a real thing. Lots of people have only one car, or the EV will be their primary road trip vehicle. And lots of people road trip. Tesla Supercharging is by far the most painless charging experience. The CCS system is closing ground, but not quickly.

Aside from that, I agree with everything else you say. Their continued insistence on pushing FSD uber alles, and rolling out a fuggin half baked quivering POS city streets Beta to a bunch of morons is, quite simply, staggeringly dangerous and stupendously foolhardy. Between that and their continued downward spiral of customer non-service, my days of Tesla ownership are quickly coming to a close.

[moff]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Range?
I'm fine with 250ish. my daughter has a bolt and it's 250ish. It works for what I do. works better now since my commute is to my home office.

Charging? Meh. I haven't done any road trips in the 335 I owned for 11 years. Furthest I've driven that car in a day is about 1/2 tank. I have an X5 which is much better for road trips.

Self driving? You are kidding? Tesla ADAS is Level 2 and nowhere near "self driving". I have been working on ASIL (Automotive Safety) for years and before that fault tolerant computing. I have designed processors for ASIL-D applications. I'm fully trained in ISO26262.

Tesla is not better than BMW ADAS and is probably worse. Tesla relies on cameras alone and eliminated Lidar/Radar which means that fog and rain cause issues. Full self driving requires redundancy. Tesla has no redundancy in it's vision system. It's a hands on system.

Cruise is a better system. GM is ahead of Tesla and so are other companies. Tesla just does a real good marking job for tech that it doesn't have.

Tesla quietly pushed an update because cars were running into emergency vehicles. NTHSA is opening an investigation.

Repeat after me. Tesla auto pilot and full self driving isn't.

The M3P has no car play, no HUD, no active suspension (cost reasons), camera only ADAS, has suspect build.quality.

Agree with most of that.

So many UK reviews saying that the auto drive features are both not worth it and no that good.

In the UK too the charging network for non Tesla's is improving day by day and definitely good enough.

All the reviews so far seem indicate that 300 miles is achievable which is enough for most and maybe the OTA updates will improve that in time.

My only issue is that the monthlies are £250 more per month than my X3M Comp which negates all the savings from an electric car.

[techwhiz1]

I agree charging is a real thing for most people.

I installed a L2 station when we got a 500e for my daughter years ago. I also upgraded to 200 amp service. I'll probably install another L2 station where the M50 will be parked.

if you are already driving a recently produced car;. there is absolutely no reason to trade that car for an i4. It makes no sense. The carbon footprint for the ICE is already a sunk cost and it will take burning a lot of fast to offset the carbon footprint of an EV swap. The time to buy an EV is when you need to buy a new car.

That being said. I dropped the money on a pre-order because my 335i was 13 years old. Funny enough, I'm waiting for an insurance payout on that car. I had no idea it was going to be involved with something that caused a total loss. So I actually NEED a vehicle. I can wait for this car to arrive because I no longer have a.commute.

As far as the i4 and technology as some people are talking about. The i4 has plenty of modern tech and ADAS. BMW isn't marketing things they don't have.
I know there are some Tesla owners here but as someone that worked on autonomous systems for different companies, I know what's under the hood and in the box.

Tesla reliance on camera only has some serious limitations.

For example BMW and others use Lidar or Radar for active cruise control. With vision only you cannot accurately determine acceleration/deceleration rates.
We can argue that two cameras and using image differences and parallax can get you there with AI. Not as accurate. You are also not able to accurately determine distance. You can get a.good approximation but as distance increases accuracy decreases. With Lidar/Radar I can accurately measure distance, relative speed and rate of acceleration.
With that information I can rely on active cruise and the car can respond in a way a vision only system can't

For those that don't agree that's fine but Tesla's FSD and auto pilot are flawed and possibly dangerous due to the buyers misunderstanding of what the system is.

I'm not a fan of the marketing hype and for that reason but there are many, I'm an anything but Tesla EV person.

[ynguldyn]

Basic physics:

At lower speeds most of the power goes into creating kinetic energy: the lighter car wins.

At higher speeds most of the power goes into overcoming air resistance: the more powerful car wins.

[JCLBoston]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I guess you could add me (a one-time Model 3 early-deposit submitter) in another category to the list...quality demanders. I'm in the "anything but Tesla" EV category now. Maybe if they learn better how to design and assemble in their next gen products.....?

They do definitely need work on quality though, no question. The i4's fit and finish is very likely way ahead of Model 3.

[JCLBoston]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I agree charging is a real thing for most people.

I installed a L2 station when we got a 500e for my daughter years ago. I also upgraded to 200 amp service. I'll probably install another L2 station where the M50 will be parked.

if you are already driving a recently produced car;. there is absolutely no reason to trade that car for an i4. It makes no sense. The carbon footprint for the ICE is already a sunk cost and it will take burning a lot of fast to offset the carbon footprint of an EV swap. The time to buy an EV is when you need to buy a new car.

That being said. I dropped the money on a pre-order because my 335i was 13 years old. Funny enough, I'm waiting for an insurance payout on that car. I had no idea it was going to be involved with something that caused a total loss. So I actually NEED a vehicle. I can wait for this car to arrive because I no longer have a.commute.

As far as the i4 and technology as some people are talking about. The i4 has plenty of modern tech and ADAS. BMW isn't marketing things they don't have.
I know there are some Tesla owners here but as someone that worked on autonomous systems for different companies, I know what's under the hood and in the box.

Tesla reliance on camera only has some serious limitations.

For example BMW and others use Lidar or Radar for active cruise control. With vision only you cannot accurately determine acceleration/deceleration rates.
We can argue that two cameras and using image differences and parallax can get you there with AI. Not as accurate. You are also not able to accurately determine distance. You can get a.good approximation but as distance increases accuracy decreases. With Lidar/Radar I can accurately measure distance, relative speed and rate of acceleration.
With that information I can rely on active cruise and the car can respond in a way a vision only system can't

For those that don't agree that's fine but Tesla's FSD and auto pilot are flawed and possibly dangerous due to the buyers misunderstanding of what the system is.

I'm not a fan of the marketing hype and for that reason but there are many, I'm an anything but Tesla EV person.

Agreed. Going Vision only is very questionable, which may or may not come back to bite them in the ass big time later on. Personally, I only use autopilot very sparingly.. typically only a few moments here or there when I need to take my eyes off the road and fiddle around with the darn screen for something because there are no buttons.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JCLBoston

They do definitely need work on quality though, no question. The i4's fit and finish is very likely way ahead of Model 3.

I started out willing to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt, thinking they would certainly understand what is expected in the market regarding quality. They had my $1000 deposit for a year. Then, I saw a Model 3, the one they had prepped, massaged, and thought worthy of being displayed in a showroom, and I was quite surprised. The quality wasn't up to the pre-production prototype requirements at another OEM car company where I spent my pre-retirement career. Unbelievably poor issues that wouldn't be allowed to leave our plants...body panels that didn't align, wrinkling headliner, uneven paint, misaligned rubber seals. After I got my refund and kept paying attention, I read of the rear fascias falling off after holding rainwater, sunroofs flying off, the Model Y "Home Depot" wood underhood repair, and it goes on. Looking at them in random parking lots, about 1 in 4 looks passable to my eyes today just for visible exterior issues. Actual owner surveys put them far low in the industry. It was all far too disappointing to be offset by some extra range or quicker acceleration.

Remember for computers, "Intel Inside", advertising the chip in other computer brands? That is what would have been more enduringly compelling. Imagine a car company that actually knows how to design and build automobiles, but around a Tesla battery and motors. "Powered by Tesla!". But, Tesla went another way and so far has been successful for sales, but now competitors are arriving in droves. We'll see how they hold up in the long run.....Nokia, Kodak, Blackberry....we'll see...unless they up their game quite a bit. Imagine when Lucid brings out the mid-size, mid-price version of their new technology, just for one who's knocking on the market's door.

[techwhiz1]

I too "tried" to out $1000 down but the delivery date was so far out I didn't bother.

While the Model S and X are attractive; TM3 is downright unattractive to me. The TMY is better.

I can't buy cars where I don't like the look.

I've owned the following as daily drivers:

1976 530i
1981 320i
1988 E30 M3
1998 E36 M3
2008 E90 M3
We also have a 2013 X5.

The two cars that were most attractive were the E30 and the E90.

The new i4 M50 is an attractive car and I would say miles ahead of Tesla in terms of interior quality and customization. Same with exterior.

With the TM3 you can have any interior you want as long as it's "vegan" and black/white. I don't want synthetic or black/white. I'm leaning toward brown/cognac leather with piano black trim and the leather dash.


Anyway this is a BMW forum so I'll admit I'm highly biased and brand loyal. I get great treatment from the dealer even with their high prices. I can't say the same for the Dodge dealer even though I have bought two new cars from Dodge.

YMMV

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I too "tried" to out $1000 down but the delivery date was so far out I didn't bother.

While the Model S and X are attractive; TM3 is downright unattractive to me. The TMY is better.

I can't buy cars where I don't like the look.

I've owned the following as daily drivers:

1976 530i
1981 320i
1988 E30 M3
1998 E36 M3
2008 E90 M3
We also have a 2013 X5.

The two cars that were most attractive were the E30 and the E90.

The new i4 M50 is an attractive car and I would say miles ahead of Tesla in terms of interior quality and customization. Same with exterior.

With the TM3 you can have any interior you want as long as it's "vegan" and black/white. I don't want synthetic or black/white. I'm leaning toward brown/cognac leather with piano black trim and the leather dash.


Anyway this is a BMW forum so I'll admit I'm highly biased and brand loyal. I get great treatment from the dealer even with their high prices. I can't say the same for the Dodge dealer even though I have bought two new cars from Dodge.

YMMV

i4 M50 utube reviews look promising, reviewers in general are happy with handling despite being 4800lb car.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Range?
I'm fine with 250ish. my daughter has a bolt and it's 250ish. It works for what I do. works better now since my commute is to my home office.

Charging? Meh. I haven't done any road trips in the 335 I owned for 11 years. Furthest I've driven that car in a day is about 1/2 tank. I have an X5 which is much better for road trips.

Self driving? You are kidding? Tesla ADAS is Level 2 and nowhere near "self driving". I have been working on ASIL (Automotive Safety) for years and before that fault tolerant computing. I have designed processors for ASIL-D applications. I'm fully trained in ISO26262.

Tesla is not better than BMW ADAS and is probably worse. Tesla relies on cameras alone and eliminated Lidar/Radar which means that fog and rain cause issues. Full self driving requires redundancy. Tesla has no redundancy in it's vision system. It's a hands on system.

Cruise is a better system. GM is ahead of Tesla and so are other companies. Tesla just does a real good marking job for tech that it doesn't have.

Tesla quietly pushed an update because cars were running into emergency vehicles. NTHSA is opening an investigation.

Repeat after me. Tesla auto pilot and full self driving isn't.

The M3P has no car play, no HUD, no active suspension (cost reasons), camera only ADAS, has suspect build.quality.

Have you ever tried Tesla full self driving? Most likely not

And you say BMW or even GM's is better. You are delusional.

Can gm or BMW change lanes on it's own? Or detect stop signs or stop lights ? Maybe in 6-7 years

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Have you ever tried Tesla full self driving? Most likely not

And you say BMW or even GM's is better. You are delusional.

Can gm or BMW change lanes on it's own? Or detect stop signs or stop lights ? Maybe in 6-7 years

BMW genius clip shows iDrive 7 can change lanes on its own with DAP+ since 2019.

Active cruise control(currently available) can include stop light/sign recognition and stopping(urban traffic light recognition?), but I am not sure if that is shipped.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

And you say BMW or even GM's is better. You are delusional.

Can gm or BMW change lanes on it's own? Or detect stop signs or stop lights ? Maybe in 6-7 years

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/gms-...s-testing.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...ome-caveats-14

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/c...sla-autopilot/

I do think Tesla is ahead in the ADAS fatality count.

And, speaking of recognizing traffic control devices...

https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/watch-t...n%20his%20post.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/gms-...s-testing.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...ome-caveats-14

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/c...sla-autopilot/

I do think Tesla is ahead in the ADAS fatality count.

And, speaking of recognizing traffic control devices...

https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/watch-t...n%20his%20post.

Of course there will be more absolute count of fatalities cause for every 1.000.000 people using Tesla autopilot cars there are 1000 people using non-Tesla autopilot cars...

If you want to compare then compare fatalities/autopilot cars in use

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

BMW genius clip shows iDrive 7 can change lanes on its own with DAP+ since 2019.

Active cruise control(currently available) can include stop light/sign recognition and stopping(urban traffic light recognition?), but I am not sure if that is shipped.

can you show me the video ?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Of course there will be more absolute count of fatalities cause for every 1.000.000 people using Tesla autopilot cars there are 1000 people using non-Tesla autopilot cars...

If you want to compare then compare fatalities/autopilot cars in use

I think there were two points, although my second with some admitted sarcasm...

1) Considering GM's SuperCruise equal or superior is not "delusional" and is thought to be the case by several others. I only took the time to reply with those links after reading the excessive word "delusional" about one of many with this opinion.

2) Tesla AutoPilot has had a series of very unfortunate outcomes in situations that should not have occurred. Whether it is even ready for public use has been questioned.