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      05-01-2019, 12:38 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
1) Amendment, not ammendment. - hair split
2) I previously worked for the US Military and subsequently for a US Government Agency within the intelligence community. Secrets matter. There are laws that prevent the exposure of secrets. - those laws apply to you
3) Assange broke the law by releasing classified information into the public sphere. - Assange is not USA citizen, nor was he in USA soil
4) Laws are laws. Don't like them? Change them. Doesn't mean you aren't required to abide by them. - you have not show evidence that such laws apply to him. It's just the USA throwing its weight around to influence others; if such laws were recognizable internationally, USA would not need to extradite Assange; they'd charge him where he is.
Our laws absolutely apply to him if we can get him into our jurisdiction. Where he was when he broke the laws is immaterial.
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      05-01-2019, 12:54 PM   #244
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Its comical jumping from the Mueller thread to here, and seeing the same people who are vehemently opposite of my views, essentially on the same "side" here.

Being a whistleblower at a company vs. leaking classified government documents are 2 completely different things. And no, the same rules should not apply to both.

Governments (everywhere) have secrets for a reason, and people can/will/have died because of them being made public.
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      05-01-2019, 01:01 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
What's the old adage? One persons' terrorist is another persons' freedom fighter?

War crimes. Sigh. So ambiguous. Big difference between Milosevic systematically attempting ethnic cleansing on an entire race and religion and America pouring water over some dudes face to find out if we can prevent another mass terrorist attack.

So many people see only black and white. The world is gray.

In addition, laws are laws for a reason. Same goes for that 'investigative reporter'. If a reporter breaks into someones house and steals classified information to prove that someone is breaking the law - do you think that is okay? Well, in the USA it isn't and that evidence cannot be used and that reporter is going to jail. The ends rarely justify the means. Irrespective of whether Assange did something for noble reasons in his eyes, the facts remain he still broke the law.
You seem to be contradicting yourself in bold ^^. Should governments & individuals be held accountable for their crimes or not ?

I've said this before & i'll say it again. A government's action is not a reflection of the whole country. Don't be afraid to critique your government. You do NOT have to show unconditional allegiance to them just because you served in the military. If not for us - do it for your future generations.

Of course legally speaking Assange may be in trouble but there is a bigger picture here. A picture where the west have been proven to be just as bad as our enemies. It's embarrassing & needs to be sorted. I hope we can agree on this at least.
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      05-01-2019, 01:16 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
You seem to be contradicting yourself in bold ^^. Should governments & individuals be held accountable for their crimes or not ?

I've said this before & i'll say it again. A government's action is not a reflection of the whole country. Don't be afraid to critique your government. You do NOT have to show unconditional allegiance to them just because you served in the military. If not for us - do it for your future generations.

Of course legally speaking Assange may be in trouble but there is a bigger picture here. A picture where the west have been proven to be just as bad as our enemies. It's embarrassing & needs to be sorted. I hope we can agree on this at least.
Which enemies? The Russians? The Chinese? Iran?
Please, specify which enemies.
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      05-01-2019, 01:25 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Our laws absolutely apply to him if we can get him into our jurisdiction. Where he was when he broke the laws is immaterial.
You have a tall order for yourself.
You know you're breaking the laws of some country out there every day, right?
Just by chewing gum, you should be caned according to Singapore law.
Don't say anything disparaging about the supreme leader, or North Korea will try to extradite you.
And better not make any jokes about Muhammad...
The fact that you are in USA soil is immaterial.
Are you ready to own up to your own standards? Seriously?
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      05-01-2019, 01:36 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
You have a tall order for yourself.
You know you're breaking the laws of some country out there every day, right?
Why Assange was initially arrested
The U.S. indictment against Assange stems from WikiLeaks’ publication in 2010 and 2011 of hundreds of thousands of U.S. military reports about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as American diplomatic communications. The material was originally leaked to WikiLeaks by former Army analyst Chelsea Manning.

The indictment includes one count of conspiracy to hack a computer to disclose classified information that “could be used to injure” the U.S. According to the indictment, Assange “conspired” with Manning by helping her crack a Defense Department computer password in March 2010 that provided access to a U.S. government network that stored classified information and communications.

He knew he was breaking the law.........
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      05-01-2019, 02:07 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
You have a tall order for yourself.
You know you're breaking the laws of some country out there every day, right?
Just by chewing gum, you should be caned according to Singapore law.
Don't say anything disparaging about the supreme leader, or North Korea will try to extradite you.
And better not make any jokes about Muhammad...
The fact that you are in USA soil is immaterial.
Are you ready to own up to your own standards? Seriously?


Yes, I am.


Also, you're wrong about Singapore.

The Singapore chewing gum ban has been in place since 1992. Since 2004, an exception has existed for therapeutic, dental, or nicotine chewing gum, which can be bought from a doctor or registered pharmacist. It is currently not illegal to chew gum in Singapore, merely to import it and sell it, apart from the aforementioned exceptions. Tourists visiting Singapore are allowed to bring in up to two packs of chewing gum per person...

Let North Korea try to extradite me. I'm not sure you understand how that works.

You can say that you don't agree with it, and that's fine. The reality is that Assange can be fully prosecuted if the UK chooses to allow him to be extradited to the USA. Period.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
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      05-01-2019, 02:08 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Why Assange was initially arrested
The U.S. indictment against Assange stems from WikiLeaks’ publication in 2010 and 2011 of hundreds of thousands of U.S. military reports about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as American diplomatic communications. The material was originally leaked to WikiLeaks by former Army analyst Chelsea Manning.

The indictment includes one count of conspiracy to hack a computer to disclose classified information that “could be used to injure” the U.S. According to the indictment, Assange “conspired” with Manning by helping her crack a Defense Department computer password in March 2010 that provided access to a U.S. government network that stored classified information and communications.

He knew he was breaking the law.........
The law applies to Manning, and she was charged.
What if she had sent the material to the NY Times? Aren't they protected?
They are trying to implicate Assange to make an example out of him. The hacking charges are bogus. We are talking about DoD computers. If they are that easy to hack, by someone thousands of miles away..
1. Manning being inside their firewall would have done it herself, perhaps with the help of someone local, or some other way like Snowden did.
2. Shame of the DoD for their incompetence to protect our country's valuable information. They are covering their incompetent ass by making an example of Assange (our computers are really easy to hack, but don't you dare!)
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      05-01-2019, 02:19 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
1. Manning being inside their firewall would have done it herself, perhaps with the help of someone local, or some other way like Snowden did.
Assange directly helped. Would? Assange DID help her(?), .......
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      05-01-2019, 02:26 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
The law applies to Manning, and she was charged.
What if she had sent the material to the NY Times? Aren't they protected?
You are either completely incompetent, or are being deliberately obtuse. To believe some of the comments you are making, would cause you to be such a moron that I don't think you would be able to operate a computer. As such, I imagine that you are simply trolling this topic.

In response to your question, if he (Manning) had sent the material to the NYT and they published it "knowing that publication will result in direct, immediate, and irreparable harm to the United States", then yes - the NYT has committed a crime and could be prosecuted.

Note, however, that this isn't the statute that Assange is being charged over. He is being charged with aiding and abetting Manning. What Manning did was an obvious crime. (1) It’s a crime to disclose information related to national defense with the intent of injuring the United States or aiding a foreign nation. (2) It’s also a crime to disclose classified information about communication intelligence (the procedures and methods used to intercept and obtain information from communications), knowingly and willfully. (3) It’s a crime to steal, sell, or convey, “any record, voucher, money, or thing of value” to the United States. (Here, it’s only necessary to prove that someone intended to use the property in an improper manner.) Manning did all three of these. Assange knowingly and wilfully aided Manning in breaking the three laws mentioned above. As such, he is a co-conspirator.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

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      05-01-2019, 02:49 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Assange directly helped. Would? Assange DID help her(?), .......
Allegedly.
The point is... if the hacking was so easy that an outsider can do it blind, she would have done it herself if she wasn't so technically inept, like Snowden did.
Shame on DoD, and now they want to cover their incompetence by making an example out of Assange.
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      05-01-2019, 09:12 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
You are either completely incompetent, or are being deliberately obtuse. To believe some of the comments you are making, would cause you to be such a moron that I don't think you would be able to operate a computer. As such, I imagine that you are simply trolling this topic.

In response to your question, if he (Manning) had sent the material to the NYT and they published it "knowing that publication will result in direct, immediate, and irreparable harm to the United States", then yes - the NYT has committed a crime and could be prosecuted.

Note, however, that this isn't the statute that Assange is being charged over. He is being charged with aiding and abetting Manning. What Manning did was an obvious crime. (1) It’s a crime to disclose information related to national defense with the intent of injuring the United States or aiding a foreign nation. (2) It’s also a crime to disclose classified information about communication intelligence (the procedures and methods used to intercept and obtain information from communications), knowingly and willfully. (3) It’s a crime to steal, sell, or convey, “any record, voucher, money, or thing of value” to the United States. (Here, it’s only necessary to prove that someone intended to use the property in an improper manner.) Manning did all three of these. Assange knowingly and wilfully aided Manning in breaking the three laws mentioned above. As such, he is a co-conspirator.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Here's what I find hard to understand.

Why is an Australian in the UK subjected to American law?

Like, fair enough, Chelsea Manning broke the law, and lets say Assange wasn't a journalist and doesn't have any protection - then, Assange helped Manning. But he isn't a Citizen of the US and he wasn't on US Soil.

So isn't there a bit of a jurisdiction thing here. Extradition treaties are made so you can't fly into a country, break the law, then run to another country to be safe. But he wasn't in the country when he broke the law, and he's never returned to the US since breaking the law.

If California passes a law, could a citizen of New York be extradited to California for punishment if he broke the Californian law while he was in New York?

I mean, Australia's just passed a law that makes it a crime not to let our spy agenices put backdoors in your code - say we decide to apply that to US citizens too. Sure, the USA isn't going to extradite someone to Australian soil who breaks the law, but the UK might... How would y'all feel if Australia decided to leverage our relationship with the queen to subject any American working in the UK to our laws?

Fair enough that you need to obey UK laws in the UK, but should you really have to also obey the laws of every country the UK has an extradition treaty with, or face their punishment?

I mean, if the USA can do it, why stop there ... rather than facing comfortable UK prison time for cyber-crimes, perhaps the UK could extradite any foreign nationals off to Pitcairn Islands for sentencing and punishment.
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      05-02-2019, 08:20 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by xQx View Post
Here's what I find hard to understand.

Why is an Australian in the UK subjected to American law?

Like, fair enough, Chelsea Manning broke the law, and lets say Assange wasn't a journalist and doesn't have any protection - then, Assange helped Manning. But he isn't a Citizen of the US and he wasn't on US Soil.

So isn't there a bit of a jurisdiction thing here. Extradition treaties are made so you can't fly into a country, break the law, then run to another country to be safe. But he wasn't in the country when he broke the law, and he's never returned to the US since breaking the law.

If California passes a law, could a citizen of New York be extradited to California for punishment if he broke the Californian law while he was in New York?

I mean, Australia's just passed a law that makes it a crime not to let our spy agenices put backdoors in your code - say we decide to apply that to US citizens too. Sure, the USA isn't going to extradite someone to Australian soil who breaks the law, but the UK might... How would y'all feel if Australia decided to leverage our relationship with the queen to subject any American working in the UK to our laws?

Fair enough that you need to obey UK laws in the UK, but should you really have to also obey the laws of every country the UK has an extradition treaty with, or face their punishment?

I mean, if the USA can do it, why stop there ... rather than facing comfortable UK prison time for cyber-crimes, perhaps the UK could extradite any foreign nationals off to Pitcairn Islands for sentencing and punishment.
If I hacked into the military computer system in Australia from my home in the USA and stole all of your top secrets and then proceeded to publish those for an enemy, which in turn used those secrets to kill Australian soldiers - don't you think I should be punished? Of course.

Another hypothetical example. Let's say I reside in a war torn country with no real law enforcement or legal structure - say Sudan as an example. I then hire someone in Australia to murder your family member. Now, I didn't actually murder anyone and I was never in Australia and in reality, there is no law in the country I am residing within in this example saying I can't hire a contract killer. Should I be allowed to get away with this - or if I was caught somewhere else, should it be allowed for Australia to extradite me back to your country to face justice? Of course.

One more. I am on a boat in international waters and your boat is a few hundred meters away in Australian waters. I shoot an RPG over into your boat and kill all aboard. Now - I wasn't in Australia when this happened. Should Australia be allowed to catch me, bring me back to Oz and prosecute me? Of course.

These are similar examples.

Again - not sure why this is so hard.
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      05-02-2019, 08:37 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
You are either completely incompetent, or are being deliberately obtuse. To believe some of the comments you are making, would cause you to be such a moron that I don't think you would be able to operate a computer. As such, I imagine that you are simply trolling this topic.

In response to your question, if he (Manning) had sent the material to the NYT and they published it "knowing that publication will result in direct, immediate, and irreparable harm to the United States", then yes - the NYT has committed a crime and could be prosecuted.

Note, however, that this isn't the statute that Assange is being charged over. He is being charged with aiding and abetting Manning. What Manning did was an obvious crime. (1) It’s a crime to disclose information related to national defense with the intent of injuring the United States or aiding a foreign nation. (2) It’s also a crime to disclose classified information about communication intelligence (the procedures and methods used to intercept and obtain information from communications), knowingly and willfully. (3) It’s a crime to steal, sell, or convey, “any record, voucher, money, or thing of value” to the United States. (Here, it’s only necessary to prove that someone intended to use the property in an improper manner.) Manning did all three of these. Assange knowingly and wilfully aided Manning in breaking the three laws mentioned above. As such, he is a co-conspirator.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

You are completely biased. You come across as a know it all. You're incapable of having any sort of discussion and when you find yourself out of arguments you resort to personal attacks. I'm done with you.
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      05-02-2019, 08:45 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
Allegedly.
The point is... if the hacking was so easy that an outsider can do it blind, she would have done it herself if she wasn't so technically inept, like Snowden did.
Shame on DoD, and now they want to cover their incompetence by making an example out of Assange.
Well, people still commit murders even though murder is against the law, it's really easy to do it. So, we shouldn't prosecute murderers anymore - it's just LEOs covering their asses for not preventing the murders in the first place.


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      05-02-2019, 08:55 AM   #258
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Julian Assange doesn't consent to US extradition, court hears https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48134901
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      05-02-2019, 09:21 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
You are completely biased. You come across as a know it all. You're incapable of having any sort of discussion and when you find yourself out of arguments you resort to personal attacks. I'm done with you.
LOL - you are aware that my quoted post was full of facts and you basically just responded to it with no argument and personal attacks - exactly what you just accused me of doing?

I have a pot over here - care to be the kettle?

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      05-02-2019, 09:28 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
If I hacked into the military computer system in Australia from my home in the USA and stole all of your top secrets and then proceeded to publish those for an enemy, which in turn used those secrets to kill Australian soldiers - don't you think I should be punished? Of course.
No. That wouldn't make you a criminal, that would make you an enemy combatant. You shouldn't be tried in a court of law, you should be targeted in combat.

Strangely, this is the perspective that makes me very sympathetic to Hillary Clinton's comment "Can't we just Drone Him?". I see Assange as a stateless enemy of the US Government and Military, and if you drone him on foreign soil, well that's between you and the owner of the foreign soil / airspace.

I still think the current legal process is utter bullshit - how can Assange get a fair trial in the USA when the people he embarrassed are the same people who make the laws he will be subjected to? He's not a criminal - he's either journalist, a spy (without a country), or a [military] enemy of the state. (note: he's neither a traitor, nor guilty of treason because these crimes only pertain to one's nation or sovereign.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Another hypothetical example. Let's say I reside in a war torn country with no real law enforcement or legal structure - say Sudan as an example. I then hire someone in Australia to murder your family member. Now, I didn't actually murder anyone and I was never in Australia and in reality, there is no law in the country I am residing within in this example saying I can't hire a contract killer. Should I be allowed to get away with this - or if I was caught somewhere else, should it be allowed for Australia to extradite me back to your country to face justice? Of course.
Now, What I just said notwithstanding - that is a very good analogy. It need not even be a war-torn country like Sudan - simply an Australian on UK soil who co-ordinated a US citizen to be murdered on US soil.

Obviously while I don't think what Assange did is as bad as murdering someone; the US government, the US legal system and many US citizens would say what Assange did is worse than murdering someone.

You sir, have changed my perspective.

Now I understand the grounds for extradition.
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      05-23-2019, 07:02 PM   #261
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Julian Assange, Wikileaks co-founder, faces 17 new charges in US https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48391266
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      05-30-2019, 12:01 AM   #262
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Tucker Actually Defends Assange...Why is he the only one on MSM telling the truth?

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      05-30-2019, 09:44 AM   #263
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Tucker Actually Defends Assange...Why is he the only one on MSM telling the truth?

So you don't watch Tucker directly, just through the jimmy dork show?
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      05-30-2019, 11:08 AM   #264
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Tucker Actually Defends Assange...Why is he the only one on MSM telling the truth?

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