[Barry123]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Makes sense. 9 years ago would predate NEC2020. I assume you don’t have a GFCI installed? Prior to NEC 2020 most states didn’t require a GFCI for a 14-50 installed in a garage. If you have only a standard breaker then it’s not a problem but a GFCI is now technically required and the cause of the problem.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it's a GFCI breaker or not. I live in a condo building and the electrician dealt with the HOA to access the electrical room. Yada yada. Only time I've been in there was when the installation was happening. Otherwise it's locked.

[Paladin1]

For those who haven't seen it, a good rundown by SOC on NEMA 14-50 outlets and safety for EV charging. A short version takeawy is that any device plugged into a high-voltage, continuous use outlet should not be frequently plugged/unplugged. For a lot of really good reasons.

[bmwix1]

external charger handles max current draw from the wall.
on-board charger on cars controlls the actual charging current flow into the car.
so long the external charger is connected to the on-board charger, on-board charger controls everything. smart functions on external charger are just for convenience. mybmw app can do most of them remotely except cut the external power.
Lucid and Porsche have the most powerful (80A direct wire) and future proof residential AC chargers. However, it's wise to wait until NACS standard is finalized.
https://store.lucidmotors.com/lucid-...rging-station/
https://shop.porsche.com/us/en-US/p/...H0LAA/HCHH0LAA

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

For those who haven't seen it, a good rundown by SOC on NEMA 14-50 outlets and safety for EV charging. A short version takeawy is that any device plugged into a high-voltage, continuous use outlet should not be frequently plugged/unplugged. For a lot of really good reasons.

Very self-serving video, IMO.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Barry123

Very self-serving video, IMO.

The dude is a well-known reviewer. In what way could this be self-serving? Other than just another Youtube broadcast.

My N of 1 anecdote... one of my best friends had his NEMA plug arc and catch on fire - fire was contained in the outlet box. He is a EE and experienced electrician who designs control systems for power plans. He knows electrons. To the best of his knowledge and experience, the outlet was wired properly. He switched the EVSE to hardwire after that.

The BEV enthusiast world seems aligned around high-grade commercial outlets like Bryant or Hubbell and against the cheap outlets at Lowes or Home Depot.

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

The dude is a well-known reviewer. In what way could this be self-serving?

He's in the business of selling/installing EV chargers. Of course there are bad contractors in every field, but any competent electrician should be able to wire/install the simple circuit needed for EV charging, whether har-wired or 14-50. This isn't rocket science.

I have a degree in engineering, but never worked in the field professionally, though I have done electrical/RF installations.

I agree with one point made in the video - beware of the cheap box store outlets.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by Barry123

Very self-serving video, IMO.

He actually produces a number of informative videos, particularly related to EVSEs. And I don't know anyone who has taken on a semi-formal test protocol for testing home EV "chargers" as he has - and he neither sells nor installs ESVEs. If you meant the QMerit ad plug, that's actually the installation service that BMW recommends and partners with, but you can use any electrical installer of course. Realizing, as he accurately points out, that many electricians are not familiar with continuous-load EV requirements. And I certainly agree with his view that most home users should not be installing a high-voltage circuit themselves unless they are familiar with electrical codes and have some experience. Installing an EV charger is not a normal DIY project unless you've done some wiring - witness the results. Watching a YouTube video and wiring a 240v continuous load on a 50A circuit with a 30 foot run, in your attached garage, is a ballsy first-time electric project. Doable - just pull a permit, don't kill yourself, and have the county inspector approve your work. So you don't, like, burn your house down either.

This is Munro's video - from some reasonably well-respected engineers - that provoked the attention, BTW:

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Barry123

He's in the business of selling/installing EV chargers.

Nope, his sponsor is but not Tom.

[darylp310]

Originally Posted by Barry123

He's in the business of selling/installing EV chargers.

He's actually not in the EV charger sales business. He's a retired restauranteur who started doing these EV charger reviews as hobby since he sold his business. He's extremely honest and objective in my opinion.

[Barry123]

OK, got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[bmwix1]

No matter what charger you use, make sure cover the metal pins of the connectors to prevent corrosion which will lead to overheat during charging.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by bmwix1

Lucid and Porsche have the most powerful (80A direct wire) and future proof residential AC chargers. However, it's wise to wait until NACS standard is finalized.
https://store.lucidmotors.com/lucid-...rging-station/
https://shop.porsche.com/us/en-US/p/...H0LAA/HCHH0LAA

Actually, there are a quite a number of vendors who also make 80A EVSE (requires a 100A circuit). This includes Ford, ClipperCreek, ABB, and Blink.

Another physical plug standard will not unlock anything for homeowners who can already use adapters to switch between the two plug types. I guess you might find it helpful to be able to eliminate an adapter? However, V2X (V2H or V2G) EVSEs might be the worthwhile wait for some homeowners.

[bmwix1]

I think all future EVs will equip 80A onboard charger as standard. IMHO, people would prefer whatever plug permanetly attatched to the house using industry standard. If iX needs an adapter, so be it.

However, until there is an industry standard on V2X, it is too early to invest any proprietary technology. NACS makes this matter even more complicated.

Ford has the whole V2X package from 80A charger w/ CCS plug to inverters/switches attaching to the main home electric panel. Then they switched to NACS.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by bmwix1

I think all future EVs will equip 80A onboard charger as standard. IMHO, people would prefer whatever plug permanetly attatched to the house using industry standard. If iX needs an adapter, so be it.

However, until there is an industry standard on V2X, it is too early to invest any proprietary technology. NACS makes this matter even more complicated.

Ford has the whole V2X package from 80A charger w/ CCS plug to inverters/switches attaching to the main home electric panel. Then they switched to NACS.

I’m in the opposite camp. I think the 19.6 kW chargers are a nothing burger that already faded out. Tesla tried it and abandoned it. My reasoning is that few houses can support a dedicated 100A charging circuit - you would need big new construction with a 400A service. And then, unless you have a Hummer, you don’t need the capacity for overnight charging.

I also think V2H is a red herring. If my power was unstable enough that I would want to install the home infrastructure, I would just do a generator.

[Pictor]

I'm not opposed to 19.2kW EVSE but I agree that they are of limited benefit for most homes and they don't provide a material advantage when charging overnight for most scenarios. I already have 110 amps dedicated to a couple of EVSEs so I could easily replace the existing EVSE for a 19.2kW unit but I would still need to charge overnight assuming any of my cars would make use of that EVSE. To illustrate the point further, in the last three weeks I've only charged up at work (free) using a 6kW EVSE and my car is currently sitting at 78% SoC.

However, V2H is another story. We live in a part of the country that has frequent wind storms around Nov-Dec that lead to frequent power outages. Generators are common but also problematic in many situations due to noise and/or exhaust. Having a V2H option, even if it's the equivalent cost to a generator, would be a no brainer for me. Not to mention the benefit of using your car's battery for other off-grid situations.

[redhot47fla]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

If my power was unstable enough that I would want to install the home infrastructure, I would just do a generator.

Simply buying a whole-house generator is a rock solid way to guarantee that you'll never again have a utility-based power outage. Trust me on this. I'm not sure it even has to be hooked up.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by redhot47fla

Simply buying a whole-house generator is a rock solid way to guarantee that you'll never again have a utility-based power outage. Trust me on this. I'm not sure it even has to be hooked up.

Haha, yep. I live in a 40 year old development with overhead power and mature trees. I was planning to install a generator when we bought the house. I never got around to it, and we’ve only lost power once in 20 years. A friend of mine just built a house with an 800A generator. He’s waiting for it to power on.

[bmwix1]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

I’m in the opposite camp. I think the 19.6 kW chargers are a nothing burger that already faded out. Tesla tried it and abandoned it. My reasoning is that few houses can support a dedicated 100A charging circuit - you would need big new construction with a 400A service. And then, unless you have a Hummer, you don’t need the capacity for overnight charging.

I also think V2H is a red herring. If my power was unstable enough that I would want to install the home infrastructure, I would just do a generator.

80A is not for today's battery capacity. Future EV will likely have higher capacity. A household will have multiple power hunger EVs need to be charged overnight. A 80A charger can do it sequentially because relatively shorter charging time. Plug in truck immedaite arriving home, unplug truck and plug in SUV before bed...
80A is a completely new home infrastructure investment. If one plans to spend $1500~2000 for 48A charger and NEMA 15-60, double the budget will get a future proof infrastructure at today's labor cost.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by bmwix1

80A is not for today's battery capacity. Future EV will likely have higher capacity. A household will have multiple power hunger EVs need to be charged overnight. A 80A charger can do it sequentially because relatively shorter charging time. Plug in truck immedaite arriving home, unplug truck and plug in SUV before bed...
80A is a completely new home infrastructure investment. If one plans to spend $1500~2000 for 48A charger and NEMA 15-60, double the budget will get a future proof infrastructure at today's labor cost.

My point is that few homes can support a 100A circuit for 80A charging, so the future car demands will not matter. Very few homes have more than a 200A service panel. Upgrading to a 400A or 800A panel is many thousands of dollars, if even viable. I think it is more likely that future homes & cars will have multiple lower capacity EVSEs on shared load that automatically charge sequentially if needed.

Also consider that an "average" daily recharge is only around 10 kWh. That is just a snap of the fingers on about any EVSE. So, I think it is more likely that people will either charge more frequently on lower capacity chargers or stagger their charges for multiple vehicles on separate days of the week. The 19.6 kW chargers that Porsche, Lucid, GM, Ford, etc. offer will likely go unused in the life of most of their cars. I know one person with a BEV who is capable of charging at 80A, and that is because he just built a new house and had the architect spec the garage for it.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by bmwix1

80A is not for today's battery capacity. Future EV will likely have higher capacity. A household will have multiple power hunger EVs need to be charged overnight. A 80A charger can do it sequentially because relatively shorter charging time. Plug in truck immedaite arriving home, unplug truck and plug in SUV before bed...
80A is a completely new home infrastructure investment. If one plans to spend $1500~2000 for 48A charger and NEMA 15-60, double the budget will get a future proof infrastructure at today's labor cost.

Multiple problems with this but let me hit on two points...

1. 80A aka (19.2kW) charging has little to do with capacity. It has everything to do with the cars onboard charger and the rate at which the car can intake AC power. Capacity is what the battery can store. I think you know this but trying to keep these statements clear.

2. Overnight charging for multiple EVs is not a nightly endeavor unless both EVs are traveling 200-300miles daily and return fully depleted. This is more likely in a commercial fleet situation but unlikely for a residence.

It's much more typical to add 10-20kW of energy back into the battery every day or every couple of days. For example, I drive 12,000 miles a year and my wife will do about twice that. She only charges at home on a 9.6kW EVSE and plugs in once or twice a week to juice up her SUV. I will use a combination of public L2 EVSE when they are available for free, public DCFC's as needed, or home charging. For the last few weeks I've managed to get by with only a slow 6kW charger at work and I only go into the office 1-2 days a week. Adding a 19.2kW EVSE in my situation would future proof nothing since even if my daily driver was a Ford F-150 that accepts 19.2kW AC I wouldn't be consuming that much electricity to necessitate a deep charge overnight on a 19.2kW EVSE. Now I'm not opposed to adding a 100a circuit but the two EVSE's (11.5kW and a dual 9.6kW) give me more flexibility and gives me the option to charge up three cars simultaneously or deep charge two cars overnight.

FWIW, I think people could use a 80A (100A breaker) EVSE in their existing home even if the house only has a 200A service. There are quite a lot of variables that go into this but in my situation the two circuits (60A and 50A) for my EVSEs have not caused any problems even when charging both cars with the A/C running on the house and running a clothes dryer. Now that I say that I don't think I've tried charging both cars over Thanksgiving so that might be my next experiment

[bmwix1]

My emphasis here is not to buy a non-standard 80A overpriced charger today. For many residential homeowners and landlords, the most important infrastructure and highest expense is the gauge 3 copper wire concealed inside the drywall between main panel and charger. So long the high quality wire is installed properly in the right place; you can hook it to a NEMA 14-50 receptacle for the use of BMW FC 2.0 charger. There is nothing wrong to draw 40A on a 100A breaker. This infrastructure is future proof and will appreciate with your house. You can DIY install whatever future EVSE gadget you deem fit. You can fit 80A charger into the existing 200A main breaker. While charging at 80A, you probably will not use oven and dryer at the same time.
Current fleet of EVs is first generation for mass audience. 100KWH battery is considered big and heavy. GM, Ford, Lucid, Porsche/Audi offer 80A onboard charger. By 2028, most OEM will adapt 800V architecture. 130~150KWH battery will be considered big and heavy then. Almost all OEMs will either standardize 80A onboard charger or offer as an option. By 2030s, 200KWH battery will be common and lighter than the average battery today. 80A will for sure be standard, maybe wireless induction charger capable. Wall Street hates one-time cure and loves recurrent upgrades for constant revenue streams. When the time is ready they will sell you a new story to upgrade your existing chargers for extra money they used to claim you would never need.
Charger is just another fast depreciating consumer electronic. The future 80A charger probably will come with 2 ports so you can fine tune the current allocation for each port. They might also sell you a transition product that has a NEMA 14-50 receptacle built-in so that you can plug your old 40A charger to it. When charge 2 cars, each gets 40A max. When V2X technology is standardized, you can buy a set of charger and inverter and have someone installed for you without open up the drywall. You no longer need to worry buying a different brand car will lose V2X feature at home.
I am pretty sure when EV becomes the primary transportation for most people, electricity cost will rise. Local monopoly will do whatever to milk your charging consumption. They could change the saver rate to only weekend between 12am to 5am. To push 200 KW at discount rate in 10 hours to all of your EVs for a week of use, 80A will do far better than 40A.