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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 48 28.92%
Trump Trump-umphant. 58 34.94%
Inclusive 13 7.83%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 50 30.12%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 8 4.82%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-25-2019, 11:42 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
After reading the transcript, a few things strand put:

1. Trump called the former proscecuter who was fired "very good":
The Pre·sident: Good because I· heard you had a prosecutor
who· was very·good and he was shut down and that's really unfair.

Shokin is universally regarded as someone who was totally blocking corruption investigations, including Burisma. Why would Trump call him "very good"? And Shokin was blocking the investigation. Blocking it. I guess that makes sense in Trumpworld, but not to me.
https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukra.../30181445.html

2. Why would Trump involve Giuliani in this? He is not a part of the US government. He is a personal employee of Trump. And Giuliani has already admitted he is/was trying to get an investigation started on the Biden's in Ukraine. Trump can't spin it any other way now.

Irrespective of the timeline, the call is damning. Add the mysterious timing on the withholding of aid, I believe the Democrats are not only justified in bringing about an impeachment proceeding, Pelosi didn't have an ethical choice.

Here is a link to the transcript:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-u...-live-updates/
Please put down the pipe. This one is a major miss and obviously, political. Once sober, you will see what we see. Biden is the big loser here...
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      09-25-2019, 11:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
You'll never get me to defend most Kennedy's politically. Though I do think JFK did some great things for the US, namely kick starting Apollo and all the good that came from that program etc.

But, I still disagree a crime wasn't committed here. It is another very clear violation of the Emoluments Clause IMO (which doesn't matter I know). How do you think the call would of went or what would happen to military aid had he even just disagreed with Trump? I think we all know the answer to that and both DJT/Zelensky certainly knew what would happen.

Plus, there is quite a bit more to come out I'm guessing in regards to Giuliani and this matter. It is just one phone call.

Any way, thanks for the civil discourse even though we disagree.
1) I don't think a crime was committed here, but as you mentioned, we can agree to disagree, and that is what makes good discourse, well.....good discourse.

2) Even if you feel a crime was committed here (i.e. quid pro quo), it has to be proven at the senate trial. Once proven, 2/3 of the entire senate would have to vote guilty. Let's all be honest - is that really gonna happen? No freaking way.

3) So even if he is charged with a crime and impeached by the house (like Bill Clinton), there is no way that he is going to be found guilty in the Senate (like Clinton), so none of this matters anyway (again, like Clinton). So why are we really even arguing a point, that in all reality, is completely moot anyway? lol.

4) When are we getting that beer/shine?




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      09-25-2019, 11:46 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
A few thoughts:
1. MK, You're using highly loaded language in your poll. You know better than that.
2. Will this simply be a Ukrainian investigation, or will Mueller report people spill over into it? Mcgahn Testifying would probably be a disaster for Trump.
3. If the charges are proven, will Republican senators pick country over party?
4. Will we value an intellectual exchange of thoughts over toxicity and name calling? I've got to admit, I'm not hopeful.
1. I have to make it kinda funny, as is my habit!
2. We shall see.
3. See 2, above.
4. It's actually been kinda good. Are we seeing a kinder, gentler BP OT?
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      09-25-2019, 11:46 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
1) I don't think a crime was committed here, but as you mentioned, we can agree to disagree, and that is what makes good discourse, well.....good discourse.

2) Even if you feel a crime was committed here (i.e. quid pro quo), it has to be proven at the senate trial. Once proven, 2/3 of the entire senate would have to vote guilty. Let's all be honest - is that really gonna happen? No freaking way.

3) So even if he is charged with a crime and impeached by the house (like Bill Clinton), there is no way that he is going to be found guilty in the Senate (like Clinton), so none of this matters anyway (again, like Clinton). So why are we really even arguing a point, that in all reality, is completely moot anyway? lol.

4) When are we getting that beer/shine?




2. Agreed.

3. Agreed, which is why Pelosi didn’t and still really doesn’t want to do it. She is smart of to know to let Trump be Trump and get himself beat in and election. Now he’ll be a martyr to the right etc.

4. Working on it!
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      09-25-2019, 11:47 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
“Today the Republican majority is not judging the president with fairness, but impeaching him with a vengeance"

"In the investigation of the president, fundamental principles which Americans hold dear -- fairness, privacy, checks and balances -- have been seriously violated and why? Because we are here today because the Republicans in the House are paralyzed with hatred of President Clinton. ... Until the Republicans free themselves of that hatred, our country will suffer”

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi declared on the House floor in December 1998.

That's it, I'm finished with this.
It would be VERY hard to make this stuff up!!
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Originally Posted by jtodd_fl View Post
Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      09-25-2019, 11:50 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
1. I have to make it kinda funny, as is my habit!
2. We shall see.
3. See 2, above.
4. It's actually been kinda good. Are we seeing a kinder, gentler BP OT?
4. No, it is as bad as it has ever been IMO in this section. There is a group that doesn’t respond to substances of posts and just continuously violates forum rules with constant insults etc. We are all human/adults and I see it happening once in awhile due to emotion, but as I said for some members it is the only way they know how to post. It is unfortunate as it as ran off a bunch of good contributors and now it is pretty stale IMO with same people constantly angry about the same things.
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      09-25-2019, 11:55 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
4. No, it is as bad as it has ever been IMO in this section. There is a group that doesn’t respond to substances of posts and just continuously violates forum rules with constant insults etc. We are all human/adults and I see it happening once in awhile due to emotion, but as I said for some members it is the only way they know how to post. It is unfortunate as it as ran off a bunch of good contributors and now it is pretty stale IMO with same people constantly angry about the same things.
I'm speaking specifically of this thread. It hasn't been that bad compared to a few of the gems from the past.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtodd_fl View Post
Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      09-25-2019, 11:56 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Again - I'm going to agree with most of what you said, except for saying that Trump is taking to the next level. You might want to read about when Kennedy told Andropov (the head of the politburo of the USSR) that he would help him (the leader of a country we were at war with) to combat Reagan if the USSR would help out the Democrat party. That blows all of this out of the water, and yet - nothing became of it.

https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/te...l#34f36452359a

https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/12/...s-re-election/

But once again, we all know who Trump is and what Trump does. He's Trump.

There is no cut and dry quid pro quo here, and as such, I am not seeing a crime being committed. Trump can call every world leader and ask them to please dig up dirt on his political rivals (aka exactly what Clinton did against Trump in 2016), but while it might be sleazy, it isn't a crime.

If Trump committed a provable crime, impeach him.

Otherwise, let's all move on.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...eeting-never-/

The above article delves deeply into the Forbes article.

Also:
2 wrongs do not make a right. If what the KGB purported kennedy wanted to do was true, then Kennedy would have been horribly wrong and should have been censored by the Senate. In no way does it make what Trump did justified.
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      09-25-2019, 11:59 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I'm speaking specifically of this thread. It hasn't been that bad compared to a few of the gems from the past.
There has been enough already and give it time.
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      09-25-2019, 12:03 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
Please put down the pipe. This one is a major miss and obviously, political. Once sober, you will see what we see. Biden is the big loser here...
So you think Shokin was a "very good" prosecuter? You're ok with Trump, again, getting (soliciting this time) aid from another corrupt country to help his election chances?
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      09-25-2019, 12:16 PM   #99
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I apologize if that's any way directed at me. Hard not to be tired of the same thing happening over and over and the same group being surprised when it fails to produce anything. Quit bandwagon jumping behind no evidence when it supports what you want to happen. Wait and see, so far the media keeps feeding you turd sandwiches and you dig right in.
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      09-25-2019, 12:28 PM   #100
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I sent this to the office of John Cornyn moments ago.

Good afternoon! I have always been a fan, and appreciate the work you have been doing for Texas, especially the way you have conducted yourself since 2017. I have voted for you every time. I have voted Republican almost every time, only having voted for Lloyd Bentsen in 1988 and Hillary in 2016.

My email today concerns the President. Having seen the transcript of his call with the Ukranian president, I cannot but be appalled by his conduct in this manner, and would think every ethical American would share my outrage. His actions cannot stand. And this sets a terrible precedent for future politics in our country. My greatest hope is that Trump will look at a bleak future and not run in 2020 if the GOP joins the Democrats in forwarding the impeachment process. If he decides to continue running for the 2020 election, I would hope you would vote to impeach if the motion is brought before you. I know this would be hard politically, but leaders must lead and defend our country no matter the prospect of their political future.
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      09-25-2019, 12:30 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
I apologize if that's any way directed at me. Hard not to be tired of the same thing happening over and over and the same group being surprised when it fails to produce anything. Quit bandwagon jumping behind no evidence when it supports what you want to happen. Wait and see, so far the media keeps feeding you turd sandwiches and you dig right in.
Thoughtful thoughts......from 1moremod.
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      09-25-2019, 12:33 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
After reading the transcript, a few things strand put:

1. Trump called the former proscecuter who was fired "very good":
The Pre·sident: Good because I· heard you had a prosecutor
who· was very·good and he was shut down and that's really unfair.

Shokin is universally regarded as someone who was totally blocking corruption investigations, including Burisma. Why would Trump call him "very good"? And Shokin was blocking the investigation. Blocking it. I guess that makes sense in Trumpworld, but not to me.
https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukra.../30181445.html

2. Why would Trump involve Giuliani in this? He is not a part of the US government. He is a personal employee of Trump. And Giuliani has already admitted he is/was trying to get an investigation started on the Biden's in Ukraine. Trump can't spin it any other way now.

Irrespective of the timeline, the call is damning. Add the mysterious timing on the withholding of aid, I believe the Democrats are not only justified in bringing about an impeachment proceeding, Pelosi didn't have an ethical choice.

Here is a link to the transcript:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-u...-live-updates/
point 1. he says this about almost everyone except for his rivals.

point 2. because tweedle dee needs tweedle dum

the call itself isnt damming unless you want it to be and you spin it that way.

Heres the way i see it. He wasnt asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden; in Trump's mind, he already has that dirt on Biden. He is asking him to explain what happened to the US AG so that then they can get Biden. Biden pressuring a foreign nation to drop an investigation into his son and withholding aid would be something that the US AG would look into. This isnt a "We need some dirt on Biden like hookers peeing on him", this is a "We need the information you have regarding a situation we are already looking at". This is how investigations work, and is no different than any of the investigations on Trump. This would be different than the Steele Dossier, or any of the other scandals that were dug up trying to look for an issue while not knowing what was out there.
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      09-25-2019, 12:54 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
point 1. he says this about almost everyone except for his rivals.

point 2. because tweedle dee needs tweedle dum

the call itself isnt damming unless you want it to be and you spin it that way.

Heres the way i see it. He wasnt asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden; in Trump's mind, he already has that dirt on Biden. He is asking him to explain what happened to the US AG so that then they can get Biden. Biden pressuring a foreign nation to drop an investigation into his son and withholding aid would be something that the US AG would look into. This isnt a "We need some dirt on Biden like hookers peeing on him", this is a "We need the information you have regarding a situation we are already looking at". This is how investigations work, and is no different than any of the investigations on Trump. This would be different than the Steele Dossier, or any of the other scandals that were dug up trying to look for an issue while not knowing what was out there.
this comment is so far from the truth it's clear some people have no clue what was going on over there at the time
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      09-25-2019, 12:58 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Says stare decisis? Nearly every single sitting president over the last several decades, plus hundreds of congressman and senators have been charged with campaign finance law violations by the FEC and not a single one of them has been impeached because of it.

Finally, on top of all of that, the FEC can't currently hold a quorum, hence why Illian Omar hasn't been fined for anything. As such, they don't really have any power to do anything right now either.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/30/75552...erence-on-hold
I don't think you understand what stare decisis means. If there was a court ruling that stated that violations of campaign finance laws do not constitute a "high crime or misdemeanor", that would be stare decisis. The mere lack of political will to seek impeachment on the basis of violations of campaign finance laws does not implicate stare decisis. That's like saying if a prosecutor does not seek charges against a shoplifter, that means shoplifting must be legal.
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      09-25-2019, 12:59 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
Please put down the pipe. This one is a major miss and obviously, political. Once sober, you will see what we see. Biden is the big loser here...
So you think Shokin was a "very good" prosecuter? You're ok with Trump, again, getting (soliciting this time) aid from another corrupt country to help his election chances?
It's like Groundhog Day with the Dems and does nothing positive for our country. This is being noticed by voters. I hear many switching to red now.

Educated and uneducated people acting like nut jobs was funny but now it has become dangerous.
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      09-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #106
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Quote:
And despite his boast last year, Biden seem to have played a very minor role in Shokin’s firing. With the Obama administration, the idea to remove him came from the US’s embassy in Ukraine, and the sentiment the prosecutor was hindering anti-corruption efforts was shared by the US’s partners and Ukrainian citizens. Too, removing Shokin has the potential to hurt Hunter Biden given the US had him replaced in order to ensure someone more fully committed to pursuing an anti-corruption agenda — including an investigation into the former Ukraine official Mykola Zlochevsky — was installed.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ower-complaint

Quote:
“Everyone in the Western community wanted Shokin sacked,” he said. “The whole G-7, the IMF, the EBRD, everybody was united that Shokin must go, and the spokesman for this was Joe Biden.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-...ry-11569189782


but sure, right, biden alone acted to fire the prosecutor because he claimed he was going to investigate the company his son as on the board for.
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      09-25-2019, 01:21 PM   #107
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They will never give it a rest will they? The mueller probe fell flat on its face, the tax stuff fell flat on its face and this will also fall flat on its face.

Can we just stop already?

EDIT: Screencap this, here's what's going to happen:

1. The democrats will carry this all the way to the election
2. Trump wins re-election
3. This bullshit falls flat on its face, no wrongdoing found

OR

1. The democrats will carry this all the way to the election
2. Trump loses re-election
3. This bullshit falls flat on its face, no wrongdoing found
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      09-25-2019, 01:28 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
It's like Groundhog Day with the Dems and does nothing positive for our country. This is being noticed by voters. I hear many switching to red now.

Educated and uneducated people acting like nut jobs was funny but now it has become dangerous.
It wasn't funny at all actually. Have you ever read 21 Lessons for the 21st Century? If not, I suggest you do.

There is a distinct reason for the groundhog day type action/reaction you are referring to, but the Right doesn't want to take the time to understand it. And unfortunately for the left, instead of using different tactics to try and clarify what's wrong, they double down on the yelling which accomplishes nothing.
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      09-25-2019, 01:47 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ower-complaint



https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-...ry-11569189782


but sure, right, biden alone acted to fire the prosecutor because he claimed he was going to investigate the company his son as on the board for.
Then you must not have an issue with what Trump said/did?

Youre stance is that this has nothing to do with Biden and getting his son out of trouble, despite it looking bad.

Is youre stance the same that while it looks bad, there isnt anything with Trump and trying to take down a competitor?
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      09-25-2019, 01:52 PM   #110
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Forget all of the politics for a second...

How does someone even side with Democrats nowadays? They're the most pathetic miscreants I've ever seen in my life. I'd feel ashamed to even be associated with such trash.

I still remember when they were doing this same shit with Bush.
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