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      03-22-2016, 11:00 PM   #23
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Still confused as to why cops better equipped than criminals is a bad thing. Anyone? Anyone?
OK, i'll bite. Aside from the reason pointed out above me, cops being massively overequipped to respond to violent crimes only increases the likelihood that disproportionate force will be used in situations where it's not necessary. It's also expensive...don't get me started about surplus helicopters--or even manned helicopters in general--which are almost without exception ridiculous moneypits. Criminals have been extremely well armed with everything from explosives to machine guns since the early 20th century, and for decades police made do just fine without having an absolutely ridiculous degree of overwhelmingly superior firepower and armor.
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      03-22-2016, 11:02 PM   #24
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Still confused as to why cops better equipped than criminals is a bad thing. Anyone? Anyone?
In perfect world its not.
Didn't the feds supply cartels with weapons?
There is also a reasonable equipment to deal with certain problems. There are things that army handles, other things does police, so does national guard or whoever.
Now the margin gets thinner and thinner, and soon will be hard to tell if its suburban sheriff or a SEAL.
Would it be reasonable to give rat exterminator a grenade, so he is better equipped?
Also what you define (or is defined) by criminals (well not all but many) are non-violent offenders or victimless crime participants like some stoners or whatever definitely don't require Armored anti-riot vehicles to take care of them.

Last edited by sp1tfire; 03-22-2016 at 11:12 PM..
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      03-22-2016, 11:57 PM   #25
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Criminals have always been well armed. But cops have also always pores sedan with technology. The .357 magnum was invented for police to penitrate cars of the day. Vests were widely adopted when they became available. People who protest the additional equipment fail to say this is for special units like swat used for special situations. Hey always post an armored vehicle, etc. I don't see cops rolling up in Bradley fighting vehicles to arrest Jay walkers. But yes, in an age of terrorists, ak47s, and cartels, it does make sense to have swat teams have the proper equipment available. Cost is typically low as most of their "tanks" are 20 yr old surplus south African, British, etc armored cars capable of stopping maximum a high powered rifle round. Not a tank. Not 10inch thick reactive chobum armor, not 120mm smooth bore Sabo rounds, etc.
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      03-23-2016, 01:33 AM   #26
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Those vehicles are rather expensive to maintain and run. And really, terrorists and cartels? Great example of practically the only 2 groups who AREN'T shooting people in the USA. Cartels are careful not to piss off our government so we don't come down harder on them, and terrorists for whatever reason aren't a problem where I live. Maybe your part of the USA is different. Also, the vast majority of swat missions are busting weed grows and the like, not stopping bank robberies and apprehending violent fugitives. Finally, the age of the AK, you mean like 1950 to present? In any case, most shootings and violent crime in general are carried out with the least expensive handguns the criminal can get.

edit: also, British and African vehicles? You have no idea what you're talking about, sorry. Our police use 100% surplus from uncle sam.
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      03-23-2016, 08:32 AM   #27
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I'm a republican, and I'll be the first to admit the 'War on Drugs' is a failure.
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      03-23-2016, 09:04 AM   #28
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I'm a republican, and I'll be the first to admit the 'War on Drugs' is a failure.
+1. One of the big reasons is border security. Another is the lack of proactive action in foreign countries. And the president meeting with narcoterrorists FARC doesn't help.
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      03-23-2016, 09:32 AM   #29
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I think that the real conversation is not about equipment but the transition of thought from, 'Peace Keeping' to 'Law Enforcement'. The thought process relative to the potential application of force is what we should be discussing.

Drug dealers of any stripe? Death penalty every day of the week. This is the penalty in many countries. No street dealers, no upper level dealers, no king pins. Cut of the delivery and exchange device (street level dealers) and the rest of the vine dies to the root.

My thought on weapons is this: The police should never be in a situation that they are outgunned by the criminals.

I have posted previously that the militarization of the police force is a problem but I had to step back and separate the equipment from the mentality. The actual problem is the transition of thought from, 'Peace Keeping' to 'Law Enforcement'.

Our communities should have the peace kept within them. This means patrols and various ways of, 'Showing the Flag'. The law should be enforced at the border, against bank robbers, rapist, murders, and drug dealers.

This may seem like a conflation but it is the best way that I can think of to elucidate my ideas.

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      03-23-2016, 09:38 AM   #30
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+1. One of the big reasons is border security. Another is the lack of proactive action in foreign countries. And the president meeting with narcoterrorists FARC doesn't help.
Yeah, I don't think we're on the same side of why we think it's a failure. My views stem from the belief that we are wasting way too much time, energy and money chasing and prosecuting what are otherwise non-violent offenders. Sure, there is also an element of violent offenders, but we've created the cartels and the hard criminals by giving them a black market in which to operate. They don't care about the drugs, they care about the money.

If we were to legalize, regulate and tax drugs a la alcohol, the black market would dry up, drug-related crime will drop off, we'd create thousands of jobs and the influx of income from the taxes would be huge.
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      03-23-2016, 09:49 AM   #31
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Yeah, I don't think we're on the same side of why we think it's a failure. My views stem from the belief that we are wasting way too much time, energy and money chasing and prosecuting what are otherwise non-violent offenders. Sure, there is also an element of violent offenders, but we've created the cartels and the hard criminals by giving them a black market in which to operate. They don't care about the drugs, they care about the money.

If we were to legalize, regulate and tax drugs a la alcohol, the black market would dry up, drug-related crime will drop off, we'd create thousands of jobs and the influx of income from the taxes would be huge.
Liberal myth. Study after study have shown that legalizing pot in Colorado fie example has increased illegal drugs. They will only switch to synthetic and designer drugs that are even more harmful. And acceptance to using them will be higher now that drugs have become more scepter. As for pot, the current pot sold is something like 10 times more powerful than the pot of the 60s. Most hippies who advocate this and don't worry about their kids smoking it don't realize this. I have seen many friends fry their brains permanently with pot. Many more than are alcoholics.

The violence is committed against the brains of the users. They are often damaged permanently and beyond repair. Not opposed to the death penalty for hard drug dealers who deal in drugs that can cause death if overdosed on.

Finally the tax money. Pot users and other drug users often loose the drive to succeed and be productive. This is a drain on the economy. We need it pay for rehab, have lower gdp, etc. All this lowers taxes. There are studies both ways but the net result is probably a wash tax wise and a reduction in our gdp.

Lastly, heroine and other opiates come from the poppy crops mostly in Afghanistan. They are used to fund terrorism. Drug dealers selling these should be brought up on terrorism charges. I don't care about kingpins, etc. If you harshly prosecute low level dealers you will dry up the supply of them and the kingpins won't have anyone to sell their stuff. More so, if you have a very heavy sentence for them, you can make it lighter but still strong if the cooperate and give up the guys higher up.

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      03-23-2016, 09:53 AM   #32
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Yeah, I don't think we're on the same side of why we think it's a failure. My views stem from the belief that we are wasting way too much time, energy and money chasing and prosecuting what are otherwise non-violent offenders. Sure, there is also an element of violent offenders, but we've created the cartels and the hard criminals by giving them a black market in which to operate. They don't care about the drugs, they care about the money.

If we were to legalize, regulate and tax drugs a la alcohol, the black market would dry up, drug-related crime will drop off, we'd create thousands of jobs and the influx of income from the taxes would be huge.
Because of some medical benefits I could see that with pot maybe but the weed isn't the cartels bread and butter. Methamphetamine, heroin and cocaine are. Soul killers as well as the opiate prescription epidemic. When doctors are dealers we've got a problem.
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      03-23-2016, 10:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
+1. One of the big reasons is border security. Another is the lack of proactive action in foreign countries. And the president meeting with narcoterrorists FARC doesn't help.
Yeah, I don't think we're on the same side of why we think it's a failure. My views stem from the belief that we are wasting way too much time, energy and money chasing and prosecuting what are otherwise non-violent offenders. Sure, there is also an element of violent offenders, but we've created the cartels and the hard criminals by giving them a black market in which to operate. They don't care about the drugs, they care about the money.

If we were to legalize, regulate and tax drugs a la alcohol, the black market would dry up, drug-related crime will drop off, we'd create thousands of jobs and the influx of income from the taxes would be huge.
You make a good point, but the flaw in the logic is that if drugs were legal, crime would drop; it wouldn't. People become addicted, can't hold a job, and steal to purchase legal drugs. Society gets a whole new class of people who can't care for themselves. Amsterdam did this, and it hasn't been a positive experience, IIRC.

The lack of a federal response to CO legalization shows that the Administration's heart is not in the war on drugs, so of course we are losing it.

IMO, we should have a public service announcement campaign, showing the devastation and ruined lives caused by the drug trade in Mexico, Latin America, and the Middle East. American drug users should be ashamed at the human suffering caused by their want to smoke whatever. Is that joint you're smoking worth the suffering of an innocent Mexican family at the hands of a ruthless cartel? We can boycott grapes for decades, but we can't boycott weed?
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      03-23-2016, 11:06 AM   #34
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so in true typical political forum fashion, this has turned into who went the farthest with a worthless degree in political science...

As for the war on drugs and the article, you mean to tell me that this "Journalist" sat on a bombshell quote for 22 years and just now decided to bust it open? Add to it that the guy who "gave" him this quote is dead, and you can see how i question the credibility.

While I have no issue with drugs like weed being legal, because if anything, now it can be researched much more and we can get true facts vs stoner facts. Hard drugs like heroin, to my knowledge, have no medical benefit and hurt more than they help. Same with Meth, Coke.... The war on drugs is more about protecting people from hurting themselves and others than about trying to suppress a minority. And if a minority is being suppressed because they are the ones doing these drugs, maybe it is time to take action within the communities and help change the culture rather than blaming someone else for your failures.
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      03-23-2016, 11:49 AM   #35
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....but the flaw in the logic is that if drugs were legal, crime would drop; it wouldn't. People become addicted, can't hold a job, and steal to purchase legal drugs. Society gets a whole new class of people who can't care for themselves....
The flaw in logic is that making it illegal will somehow prevent people from becoming addicts. We are talking about the legalization of marijuana. No one ever died from an overdose of pot. It is currently classified a schedule 1 drug along with Heroin, ecstasy and LSD, which is total bullshit. While cocaine and methamphetamine are considered schedule II. It's classification can not be justified on scientifically. Marijuana is not considered highly addictive or dangerous.

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The lack of a federal response to CO legalization shows that the Administration's heart is not in the war on drugs, so of course we are losing it.
Their heart is not in it? Explains why the US has the largest prison population in the world! This sharp increase also coincides with the beginning of this war on drugs. 800% increase in 40yrs, mostly non-violent drug related crimes. Big profitable business. The government is really good at taking away freedoms and making money from it. Either by selling you back that freedom in the form of a "permit"(to permit you to do something that was a freedom taken away) or to turn it's citizens into criminals overnight by passing more laws that take away their freedoms. And the vicious cycle continues. Mostly victimless crimes.

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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
IMO, we should have a public service announcement campaign, showing the devastation and ruined lives caused by the drug trade in Mexico, Latin America, and the Middle East. American drug users should be ashamed at the human suffering caused by their want to smoke whatever. Is that joint you're smoking worth the suffering of an innocent Mexican family at the hands of a ruthless cartel? We can boycott grapes for decades, but we can't boycott weed?
Man you are all over the map. The only reason those countries are seeing the suffering we are seeing is because our government won't allow you to grow this plant otherwise you will go to prison for a long time. We can boycott grapes from other countries because last time I checked we were still allowed to grow grapes without being arrested. I have some on my property....grapes that is.

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      03-23-2016, 12:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mPlasticDesign
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
....but the flaw in the logic is that if drugs were legal, crime would drop; it wouldn't. People become addicted, can't hold a job, and steal to purchase legal drugs. Society gets a whole new class of people who can't care for themselves....
The flaw in logic is that making it illegal will somehow prevent people from becoming addicts. We are talking about the legalization of marijuana. No one ever died from an overdose of pot. It is currently classified a schedule 1 drug along with Heroin, ecstasy and LSD, which is total bullshit. While cocaine and methamphetamine are considered schedule II. It's classification can not be justified on scientifically. Marijuana is not considered highly addictive or dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The lack of a federal response to CO legalization shows that the Administration's heart is not in the war on drugs, so of course we are losing it.
Their heart is not in it? Explains why the US has the largest prison population in the world! This sharp increase also coincides with the beginning of this war on drugs. 800% increase in 40yrs, mostly non-violent drug related crimes. Big profitable business. The government is really good at taking away freedoms and making money from it. Either by selling you back that freedom in the form of a "permit"(to permit you to do something that was a freedom taken away) or to turn it's citizens into criminals overnight by passing more laws that take away their freedoms. And the vicious cycle continues. Mostly victimless crimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
IMO, we should have a public service announcement campaign, showing the devastation and ruined lives caused by the drug trade in Mexico, Latin America, and the Middle East. American drug users should be ashamed at the human suffering caused by their want to smoke whatever. Is that joint you're smoking worth the suffering of an innocent Mexican family at the hands of a ruthless cartel? We can boycott grapes for decades, but we can't boycott weed?
Man you are all over the map. The only reason those countries are seeing the suffering we are seeing is because our government won't allow you to grow this plant otherwise you will go to prison for a long time. We can boycott grapes from other countries because last time I checked we were still allowed to grow grapes without being arrested. I have some on my property....grapes that is.

Attachment 1387817
I wasn't speaking only if the legalization of marijuana- I thought you were advocating previously for harder drugs - my mistake. Although I don't think legal weed is a good idea at all - nor does the medical community, generally speaking.

Nixing war on drugs was started at the same time drugs exploded with the hippies - that's not a cause/effect. Virtually no one goes to jail for marijuana crimes only (unless dealing large quantities) - but prosecutors can make drug crimes stick, so most jailed marijuana offenders are there because they pled their cases down from worse charges.
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      03-23-2016, 12:09 PM   #37
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interesting tidbit since you are now talking about weed being legal, I know just as many people here in Colorado that still buy weed illegally as I do that buy it legally. And crime hasnt gone down now all of sudden because weed is legal either despite what the rumors are.




Heres another stat, Arrests for drug violations in 2013 totaled 2,349 and increased almost 10 percent to 2,574 arrests for 2014.

Just because something is legal, doesnt get rid of crime, and in some instances, increases it. Alcohol is legal, but there are still tons of alcohol related arrests every year, so why would drugs be any different?
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      03-23-2016, 12:21 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by mPlasticDesign View Post
You may also want to look at other info before you come up with the war on drugs is the reason the prison population has been going up.

The population has been growing as well.


The Public debt follows almost the same shape as your graph.


Illigal immigration is also similar



The point is, you cant just take one data set and say that is the absolute. you need to look at all the factors.
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      03-23-2016, 12:32 PM   #39
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This has nothing to do with Colorado's population growing at an unprecendented rate since they legalized marijuana huh? In the last 12 months alone, Colorado's population has increased by 110,000. The universities are reporting record applications from out-of-state residents. A 30 second google search will provide you with more than enough data to debunk everything you're saying about crime and weed.

Surely, you guys can't be this ignorant.

EDIT: Looks like I'm slow to the population party.

Last edited by Orenji; 03-23-2016 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: I was effing eating lunch while posting... sue me.
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      03-23-2016, 12:47 PM   #40
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This has nothing to do with Colorado's population growing at an unprecendented rate since they legalized marijuana huh? In the last 12 months alone, Colorado's population has increased by 110,000. The universities are reporting record applications from out-of-state residents. A 30 second google search will provide you with more than enough data to debunk everything you're saying about crime and weed.

Surely, you guys can't be this ignorant.

EDIT: Looks like I'm slow to the population party.
That is arrests per 100,000. So population growth doesnt necessarily impact it as much as absolute numbers do

2012 - 857 per 100,000
2013 - 954 per 100,000
2014 - 1037 per 100,000

From 2012 to 2014 the Crime Value index also rose from 51 to 53. All this info is easily accessible

Population is growing at about 100,000/yr like you said, which is only 1-2% of total population of Colorado. Crime has been gowing up by around 10% each year.

Edit: Here's the info if youd like.
2012 Crime Stats - http://crimeinco.cbi.state.co.us/cic...e_offense.html
2013 Crime Stats - http://crimeinco.cbi.state.co.us/cic...se_arrest.html
2014 Crime Stats - http://crimeinco.cbi.state.co.us/cic...se_arrest.html

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      03-23-2016, 01:08 PM   #41
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interesting tidbit since you are now talking about weed being legal, I know just as many people here in Colorado that still buy weed illegally as I do that buy it legally. And crime hasnt gone down now all of sudden because weed is legal either despite what the rumors are.

Heres another stat, Arrests for drug violations in 2013 totaled 2,349 and increased almost 10 percent to 2,574 arrests for 2014.

Just because something is legal, doesnt get rid of crime, and in some instances, increases it. Alcohol is legal, but there are still tons of alcohol related arrests every year, so why would drugs be any different?
The reason why legalization in CO hasn't decreased the illegal market for marijuana is because government regulation has made it so expensive that it is still cheaper to get illegally. Your argument about alcohol being legal hasn't prevented alcohol related crimes is misguided. No on is arguing that making something legal will stop people from committing crimes. Making it legal will however remove the need for an underground illegal black market of criminals that peddle it. Prohibition is a perfect example. There is no mafia or drug cartel in the business of selling alcohol now is there?


Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
You may also want to look at other info before you come up with the war on drugs is the reason the prison population has been going up.

The population has been growing as well.


The Public debt follows almost the same shape as your graph.

Illigal immigration is also similar

The point is, you cant just take one data set and say that is the absolute. you need to look at all the factors.
The population has gone up 35%, while the prison population has gone up 800%, why is that so hard for you to understand there is zero correlation with the population increase. It's not even remotely proportional.

Public debt, illegal immigration, etc. are all moot points, because you can actually look at the statistics on why people are incarcerated.

Here are some facts:

46% nonviolent recidivists
"Violent crime was not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States from 1980 to 2003. Violent crime rates had been relatively constant or declining over those decades. The prison population was increased primarily by public policy changes causing more prison sentences and lengthening time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release. 49 percent of sentenced state inmates were held for violent offenses. Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "War on Drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges."

Source: "Incarcerated America" Human Rights Watch (April 2003)
Source: United States Crime Rates 19602009. Source: FBI, Uniform Crime Reports.
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      03-23-2016, 01:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
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so in true typical political forum fashion, this has turned into who went the farthest with a worthless degree in political science...
Hurling insults is totally unnecessary and serves no good. It definitely detracts from the real value of your post.
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      03-23-2016, 01:29 PM   #43
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The reason why legalization in CO hasn't decreased the illegal market for marijuana is because government regulation has made it so expensive that it is still cheaper to get illegally. Your argument about alcohol being legal hasn't prevented alcohol related crimes is misguided. No on is arguing that making something legal will stop people from committing crimes. Making it legal will however remove the need for an underground illegal black market of criminals that peddle it. Prohibition is a perfect example. There is no mafia or drug cartel in the business of selling alcohol now is there?




The population has gone up 35%, while the prison population has gone up 800%, why is that so hard for you to understand there is zero correlation with the population increase. It's not even remotely proportional.

Public debt, illegal immigration, etc. are all moot points, because you can actually look at the statistics on why people are incarcerated.

Here are some facts:

46% nonviolent recidivists
"Violent crime was not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States from 1980 to 2003. Violent crime rates had been relatively constant or declining over those decades. The prison population was increased primarily by public policy changes causing more prison sentences and lengthening time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release. 49 percent of sentenced state inmates were held for violent offenses. Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "War on Drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges."

Source: "Incarcerated America" Human Rights Watch (April 2003)
Source: United States Crime Rates 19602009. Source: FBI, Uniform Crime Reports.

To your 1st point, i can get an eighth on the street for $40-50, or at the store for $40-50 depending on the strain, and even as low at $30 on sale, so that is incorrect. The majority of the people i know do it because it is easier to go through their dealer than it is to go to a store, or they are buddies, or they are underage, etc. Street prices have stayed fairly consistent despite the increase of recreational stores. And if you have a medical card, you are looking at half those prices if not more of a discount. And those cards are extremely easy to get.

To your 2nd point, how can immigration and debt as well as population growth and other social and economic impacts not account for any of that growth of inmates? I know plenty of people that do drugs to escape the issues of their life, including compounding debt, so theres that.

Yes the mandatory minimums on drug offenses should be done away with, and that will help the prison population, but that doesnt negate the fact that people are still breaking the law. Drugs are becoming easier and easier to get, and law enforcement is continually trying to crack down on it more and more, so that is why you are seeing an increase.

The spike of Drug Crime % was the late 80s/early 90s, which was the beginning of the Anti Drug Campaigns. It has stayed fairly steady since then, while violent crime % is back on the rise again.

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      03-23-2016, 01:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Hurling insults is totally unnecessary and serves no good. It definitely detracts from the real value of your post.
sorry, my buddy sitting next to me is a poly sci major. had to take a jab
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