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      08-06-2019, 02:55 PM   #705
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Fakes=Counterfit

Regardless of cost, value, perceived value and status symbol, bottom-line is these watches are illegal to produce and to be sold. They infringe on IP and trademark laws. On top of that, these counterfeit enterprises are tied to other criminal enterprises that are admittedly way worse that IP law violations, ie human trafficking, arms dealing. Are Swiss, Japanese and German watch companies beyond reproach? Probably not, but they are legitimate businesses trying to make an honest buck.

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      08-07-2019, 06:14 PM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownnij View Post
i like seiko watches but their movement isn't exactly great. A good 3135 clone is even better for the same price.
I doubt that.
A fake rolex with 3135 clone movement also isnt cheap.
For that kind of money you can easily get a seiko with 6r15 movement, and I guess thats better than that clone movement. Clone movements usually have pretty bad finishing if you look under the microscope at the finishing of gears etc. And those clone movements dont are not made wiht the same grade of materials rolex uses for critical components, like very carefully formulated steel for for example balance hairspring etc.
And at that level Seiko can compete. Seiko is the only manufacturer that has the ability to make everything inhouse. So all materials and components.
Even rolex cant say that (I believe to extend it to the hairsping, rolex does make that component itself), seiko grows their own jewels and makes their own crystals, mainsprings, everything.
Rolex still relies for some parts on other specialist swiss niche manufacturers (I think all those components that rolex does buy come from swiss high end manufacturers). But still relying on other manufacturers for highly specialized parts is more rule than exception, patek and the likes also do that (obviously also from swiss only companies).
But Seiko is in that way unique.
And a clone movement.... you'll be sure that thats all bought on the world market..... for the cheapest of the cheapest price.
And its not really a clone movement, its a counterfeit movement, so an imitation movement.
Clone movement, like Eta style movments from for example chinese manufacturer seagull, are also seagull branded and usually of much much higher quality in both materials as accuracy and finishing of parts as skillness of assembly.

I'd never buy and wear a counterfeit watch (except maybe for a costume party that would require something like a very ugly and flashy rolex (gold yauhtmaster2...).
With a normal watch costing 500 or 1k, you usually get 500-1k of quality. With a counterfeit 'clone' movement, costing similar money, you dont get 500-1k worth of quality. You get the lowest quality the manufacturer still can get away with as there's no name or brand to keep up high.

Thats why lots of seiko's are dead reliable. arguably more reliable than Rolexes when it comes to keep ticking without being serviced. Seiko movements are real survivors (of course you can really only say that from old movements as time will only tell....)
Of course a 500 buck Seiko cant compete with a 5k+ rolex watch to the level where it's regulated and tweaked to precision (witch can require partly rebuilding the movement a few times to get it 100% right) to meet certain standards. Rolex obviously puts way more time into that than seiko. But who doesnt put time into that is the counterfeit factory.
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      08-07-2019, 11:33 PM   #707
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i would like to give you a longer answer but you're right. Just know i did respect your time and actually took the time to read your response.
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      08-08-2019, 03:30 PM   #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I doubt that.
A fake rolex with 3135 clone movement also isnt cheap.
For that kind of money you can easily get a seiko with 6r15 movement, and I guess thats better than that clone movement. Clone movements usually have pretty bad finishing if you look under the microscope at the finishing of gears etc. And those clone movements dont are not made wiht the same grade of materials rolex uses for critical components, like very carefully formulated steel for for example balance hairspring etc.
And at that level Seiko can compete. Seiko is the only manufacturer that has the ability to make everything inhouse. So all materials and components.
Even rolex cant say that (I believe to extend it to the hairsping, rolex does make that component itself), seiko grows their own jewels and makes their own crystals, mainsprings, everything.
Rolex still relies for some parts on other specialist swiss niche manufacturers (I think all those components that rolex does buy come from swiss high end manufacturers). But still relying on other manufacturers for highly specialized parts is more rule than exception, patek and the likes also do that (obviously also from swiss only companies).
But Seiko is in that way unique.
And a clone movement.... you'll be sure that thats all bought on the world market..... for the cheapest of the cheapest price.
And its not really a clone movement, its a counterfeit movement, so an imitation movement.
Clone movement, like Eta style movments from for example chinese manufacturer seagull, are also seagull branded and usually of much much higher quality in both materials as accuracy and finishing of parts as skillness of assembly.

I'd never buy and wear a counterfeit watch (except maybe for a costume party that would require something like a very ugly and flashy rolex (gold yauhtmaster2...).
With a normal watch costing 500 or 1k, you usually get 500-1k of quality. With a counterfeit 'clone' movement, costing similar money, you dont get 500-1k worth of quality. You get the lowest quality the manufacturer still can get away with as there's no name or brand to keep up high.

Thats why lots of seiko's are dead reliable. arguably more reliable than Rolexes when it comes to keep ticking without being serviced. Seiko movements are real survivors (of course you can really only say that from old movements as time will only tell....)
Of course a 500 buck Seiko cant compete with a 5k+ rolex watch to the level where it's regulated and tweaked to precision (witch can require partly rebuilding the movement a few times to get it 100% right) to meet certain standards. Rolex obviously puts way more time into that than seiko. But who doesnt put time into that is the counterfeit factory.
You could have picked any other cheap quality movement and you went with a low end seiko? Outside of the Grand Seiko movements, the seiko movements are very cheap movements that costs significantly less to make than even those clone movements. Sure they are "reliable" but even if they tick forever, their average daily error rate is up to +25s/d.
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      08-08-2019, 04:13 PM   #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
You could have picked any other cheap quality movement and you went with a low end seiko? Outside of the Grand Seiko movements, the seiko movements are very cheap movements that costs significantly less to make than even those clone movements. Sure they are "reliable" but even if they tick forever, their average daily error rate is up to +25s/d.
I dont agree with that. My 6r15 ticks just as good and accurate and reliable/stable as my 2824. they are each nemesis if you ask me. the timegrapher doesnt lie. I also dont have the alledged 6r15 problems as spencer klein somethimes points them out with the balance, so that is also not an issue.
Also there are some seiko movements that are certainly fairly high end and not GS. Some used in the brightz series for instance (Seiko 6s), like a very nice column wheel chrono.
Seiko 8R is also nice, and I believe also not a GS movement.

I saw that video on youtube about the latest rolex counterfit from watchfinder&co (2 months ago) and I was not that impressed with the finishing of the materials in the fake movement.
I mean, virtually first videoshot they made:


If you think this is quality engineering and finishing we have completely different standards. Sure if you take a $100 Seiko 5, than you could accept this, but finishing like this is absolutely not seen anymore in the sarb/sarg/pressage line ($350-700), and mind you, this is, I believe a $1000 fake, so a $1000 watch.
I mean yes, it has stipling (is that the correct english word? not a native speaker), but it has been applied because its there on the original, not in any way nice to actually improve the finishing.
And that cutting on the movement ring? (I guess thats what it is)...
was that done with a woodchisel? That kind of coarse, sloppy, cheap finishing surface, which is a result of cheap, inaccurate substandard machining, thats not something you'll find at seiko. Certainly not in that pricerange. And is it me, or does that baseplate look dirty?

Also I think that a lot of parts might not have been machined to tolerance, but having used cheaper production methodes, and maybe even started out as a cast part instead of a billet part (further in the video, the column wheel). The latter of course way more expensive but way stronger.
The only thing that makes that video bad, (and my only comment there ) is that they didnt put the fake on the timegrapher. (and dismanteling the watch to take a really good look at the movement parts. for example a delicate and very difficult part like the vertical clutch, I'd be eager to see what kind of botchjob they made of that)

And if we look at older seiko's, as that is of course the only real benchmark there is to determine how a movement holds up to time and is a good marker for a companies merit and quality attitude:
I have a 4006-7020, the 27J version with # 871955, so thats a 50+ year old watch, from what I could see never serviced (no marks) and if it so it was extremely long ago as I could only get the crown/stem out pulling so hard that the stem bushing/case tube came out with it. It was totally fused with the orings in the crown. First I thought thats a peculiar crown before I realized what had happened
Case tube is of course impossible to source but I managed to get it undamaged out of the crown by heating, incinerating the o rings, and later microsolder the case tube back in the case (there was no clamping action present anymore). So long story short, very old watch, if serviced certainly before I was born. But on the timegrapher...Deadstraight (+/-6 sec or so in multiple positions), beat error? 0,2 maybe... And good amplitude.

I also have a 6138 (well... more than one), same story. Even unserviced ones tick and tock very nice after 40+ years, and are easily regulated if needed.
For sure we wont know until after 40 years if a 6r15 or such will hold up that well, but the heritage is there.
So I certainly dont share your views.
Obviously comparing $300-$800 seikos to $4000-$15000 rolexen there will be differences, but that $1000 fake, when the back was opened to me it became immediately clear where corners had been cut. It is made to look the same, but certainly not to be the same. The production methods used in that watch to make it look like a rolex are the cheapest of cheapest. And of course there is no way of telling, except of using a multi million$ lab, but I bet that critical components like hairsprings will be made of the cheapest of cheapest materials to keep it more or less ticking and not of very bespoke materials resulted from decades of research by the best time keeping companies of the last century (and mostly then patented I'd imagine). But thats something you cant see, but will arise if it has ticked a decade or so and gradually seems impossible to regulate anymore.
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      08-08-2019, 05:40 PM   #710
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face it boys.. a fake watch will be a fake watch. it holds no real value. so if you spend 400-500 on a fake watch and then spend another few hundred on cleaning up some of the flaws.. at some point.. you'll want to sell this piece and they just don't hold any real value. Seiko in the other hand.. they actually hold their value or even more based on your mods.

idk i sold all my seikos and purchased a Rolex dayjust 36mm. I also daily this watch everyday so i'm not the best owner hahaha.
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      08-08-2019, 05:59 PM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I dont agree with that. My 6r15 ticks just as good and accurate and reliable/stable as my 2824. they are each nemesis if you ask me. the timegrapher doesnt lie. I also dont have the alledged 6r15 problems as spencer klein somethimes points them out with the balance, so that is also not an issue.
Also there are some seiko movements that are certainly fairly high end and not GS. Some used in the brightz series for instance (Seiko 6s), like a very nice column wheel chrono.
Seiko 8R is also nice, and I believe also not a GS movement.

I saw that video on youtube about the latest rolex counterfit from watchfinder&co (2 months ago) and I was not that impressed with the finishing of the materials in the fake movement.
I mean, virtually first videoshot they made:


If you think this is quality engineering and finishing we have completely different standards. Sure if you take a $100 Seiko 5, than you could accept this, but finishing like this is absolutely not seen anymore in the sarb/sarg/pressage line ($350-700), and mind you, this is, I believe a $1000 fake, so a $1000 watch.
I mean yes, it has stipling (is that the correct english word? not a native speaker), but it has been applied because its there on the original, not in any way nice to actually improve the finishing.
And that cutting on the movement ring? (I guess thats what it is)...
was that done with a woodchisel? That kind of coarse, sloppy, cheap finishing surface, which is a result of cheap, inaccurate substandard machining, thats not something you'll find at seiko. Certainly not in that pricerange. And is it me, or does that baseplate look dirty?

Also I think that a lot of parts might not have been machined to tolerance, but having used cheaper production methodes, and maybe even started out as a cast part instead of a billet part (further in the video, the column wheel). The latter of course way more expensive but way stronger.
The only thing that makes that video bad, (and my only comment there ) is that they didnt put the fake on the timegrapher. (and dismanteling the watch to take a really good look at the movement parts. for example a delicate and very difficult part like the vertical clutch, I'd be eager to see what kind of botchjob they made of that)

And if we look at older seiko's, as that is of course the only real benchmark there is to determine how a movement holds up to time and is a good marker for a companies merit and quality attitude:
I have a 4006-7020, the 27J version with # 871955, so thats a 50+ year old watch, from what I could see never serviced (no marks) and if it so it was extremely long ago as I could only get the crown/stem out pulling so hard that the stem bushing/case tube came out with it. It was totally fused with the orings in the crown. First I thought thats a peculiar crown before I realized what had happened
Case tube is of course impossible to source but I managed to get it undamaged out of the crown by heating, incinerating the o rings, and later microsolder the case tube back in the case (there was no clamping action present anymore). So long story short, very old watch, if serviced certainly before I was born. But on the timegrapher...Deadstraight (+/-6 sec or so in multiple positions), beat error? 0,2 maybe... And good amplitude.

I also have a 6138 (well... more than one), same story. Even unserviced ones tick and tock very nice after 40+ years, and are easily regulated if needed.
For sure we wont know until after 40 years if a 6r15 or such will hold up that well, but the heritage is there.
So I certainly dont share your views.
Obviously comparing $300-$800 seikos to $4000-$15000 rolexen there will be differences, but that $1000 fake, when the back was opened to me it became immediately clear where corners had been cut. It is made to look the same, but certainly not to be the same. The production methods used in that watch to make it look like a rolex are the cheapest of cheapest. And of course there is no way of telling, except of using a multi million$ lab, but I bet that critical components like hairsprings will be made of the cheapest of cheapest materials to keep it more or less ticking and not of very bespoke materials resulted from decades of research by the best time keeping companies of the last century (and mostly then patented I'd imagine). But thats something you cant see, but will arise if it has ticked a decade or so and gradually seems impossible to regulate anymore.
i started out working on the cheap seiko movements. I know all about them. Like i said, they are good simple movements, but they lack a lot of things that movements not much more expensive then them have (higher beat rates, lower variations in accuracy, more adjustment to get higher accuracy, higher level of materials and engineering, etc).

I also have worked on a ton of these 3135 clones, because it is the cheapest way to practice servicing gen 3135s. If you can service the clone and get it to run within Rolex spec, you can do the real thing no problem. Sure, their finishing isnt amazing, but neither are those seikos, and really, not even the standard grade ETAs.

What you can compare these movements to and they fall short are the mid tier and higher tier ETA 2824s. Similar price points (all within 100-150 new wholesale'ish), but the eta quality is much better.

FWIW, most these clone movements come either over oiled, under oiled, and/or dirty straight from the factories. Give them a proper service and they run like champs. Goes for the ETA clones to the Rolex clones and everything in between.
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      08-08-2019, 06:02 PM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownnij View Post
face it boys.. a fake watch will be a fake watch. it holds no real value. so if you spend 400-500 on a fake watch and then spend another few hundred on cleaning up some of the flaws.. at some point.. you'll want to sell this piece and they just don't hold any real value. Seiko in the other hand.. they actually hold their value or even more based on your mods.

idk i sold all my seikos and purchased a Rolex dayjust 36mm. I also daily this watch everyday so i'm not the best owner hahaha.
I daily all my rolex, but i have enough of a rotation that its not true daily lol.

They are meant to be worn. No shame in actually wearing them.
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      08-08-2019, 06:08 PM   #713
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Yeah I have a rotation list actually but wear certain ones more often.
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      08-08-2019, 06:09 PM   #714
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Quote:
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I daily all my rolex, but i have enough of a rotation that its not true daily lol.

They are meant to be worn. No shame in actually wearing them.
people tend to get sensitive, jealous, triggered. when you have nicer things.

But never getting away from that nonsense.

Im not a huge watch guy. But I am looking to buy a nice watch and call it a day. Its literally just jewelry to me. The movements and all that don't matter.
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      08-08-2019, 06:12 PM   #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownnij View Post
face it boys.. a fake watch will be a fake watch. it holds no real value. so if you spend 400-500 on a fake watch and then spend another few hundred on cleaning up some of the flaws.. at some point.. you'll want to sell this piece and they just don't hold any real value. Seiko in the other hand.. they actually hold their value or even more based on your mods.

idk i sold all my seikos and purchased a Rolex dayjust 36mm. I also daily this watch everyday so i'm not the best owner hahaha.
You can buy a very good fake for $400 and sell it for $400. There is an active market for them.
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      08-08-2019, 06:19 PM   #716
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Quote:
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You can buy a very good fake for $400 and sell it for $400. There is an active market for them.
But does a good fake keep its value when a better fake comes along?
A good fake from 15 years ago is probably nothing compared to the ones of today. Is it still worth the price it cost then? Or doesn no one want it anymore?
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      08-08-2019, 06:22 PM   #717
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Quote:
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But does a good fake keep its value when a better fake comes along?
A good fake from 15 years ago is probably nothing compared to the ones of today. Is it still worth the price it cost then? Or doesn no one want it anymore?
You are correct.
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      08-08-2019, 06:28 PM   #718
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Quote:
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But does a good fake keep its value when a better fake comes along?
A good fake from 15 years ago is probably nothing compared to the ones of today. Is it still worth the price it cost then? Or doesn no one want it anymore?
same can be said for most watches except for the high demand Rolex, AP, Patek

Look at what Omegas MSRP for and what they sell for on the secondary market.
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      08-08-2019, 06:47 PM   #719
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maybe but if you have a seiko skx007 (one of its cheapest automatic divers, costs? $200 new or so?) and you have one from 20 or 25 years old (I think its now 25 years on the market), I bet it sells for the same price or maybe even higher if its in good condition of course.
And its predecessor is way way more expensive (skyrocketed) but there's a 10 year gap between that, so that already becomes vintage (to use a vague word).

So its very model dependant, and not brand specific or budget specific (like that that only happens to very very expensive watches)
There are also some unpopular rolex or patek or VC models that loose substantial value the moment it's carried out the jewelers door.
So even there its model specific.
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      08-08-2019, 06:50 PM   #720
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Quote:
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maybe but if you have a seiko skx007 (one of its cheapest automatic divers, costs? $200 new or so?) and you have one from 20 or 25 years old (I think its now 25 years on the market), I bet it sells for the same price or maybe even higher if its in good condition of course.
And its predecessor is way way more expensive (skyrocketed) but there's a 10 year gap between that, so that already becomes vintage (to use a vague word).

So its very model dependant, and not brand specific or budget specific (like that that only happens to very very expensive watches)
There are also some unpopular rolex or patek or VC models that loose substantial value the moment it's carried out the jewelers door.
right thats why i said high demand ones.
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      08-08-2019, 06:59 PM   #721
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Ah ok, I thought you meant that those brands are high demand (as in the only real high demand brands on the planet).
I misunderstood.

But yeah I reckon they're golden times to now trade in top tier steel sportswatches (mens models).
Submariner, daytona are now probably the best investments you can make, not even limited to watches but also regarding stock etc (or at least could have made 5 years ago, but thats hindsight), not to speak of the vintage ones
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