[pookiemalibu]

Leave it to congress to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. This is certainly a first world gripe, but what electric SUV do I want that's under $80K? Sedan under $55K? GTFOH. Plus the income caps?

This punishes the middle class and opens up the door for Tesla to sell more cars and for Elon to realize his dream of building an actual Death Star.

This is gonna sound super elitist but: basically none of the higher end Porsches, Mercs or Bimmers will qualify. Great, because those folks on fixed incomes are totally going to go out and buy a new electric car and the charging infrastructure to get a tax credit. Cause that happens all the time. How many cars will this actually apply to now?

These idiots in Washington are mind boggling sometimes.

[spool twice]

Definitely limits who qualifies under the sedan category to only one auto maker currently, and basically only one model and trim of that auto maker.

[TXSchnee]

This really doesn't alter my vehicle choices in any way. The tax credit wasn't the deciding factor on purchasing my Cayenne E Hybrid ($6800 back on a six figure vehicle was nice though) and it won't cause me to steer clear of a full BEV if it passes (I have 2 on order right now, neither of them would qualify, even if I somehow did with the income restriction). It would be much easier for the the person buying to have the government reimburse at point of sale though, instead of waiting for the following years taxes.

[scLA]

I saw a bill summary that said the bill would go into effect 1/1/23 and any purchase orders of cars from 2022 that are delivered in 2023 would fall under the 2022 rules. I haven't read the bill myself to see if this is accurate but will check it out later.

[jeffc42]

Originally Posted by slazLA

I saw a bill summary that said the bill would go into effect 1/1/23 and any purchase orders of cars from 2022 that are delivered in 2023 would fall under the 2022 rules. I haven't read the bill myself to see if this is accurate but will check it out later.

I wonder what qualifies as a purchase order. I doubt a refundable deposit qualifies.

[bunker]

Originally Posted by Penguino

It's almost as if the US wants everyone to be poor.

Why limit the EV credit based on income?

no, they want poor(er) people to be less poor.

the issue to me is not so much where the cap is but, rather, the price of electric vehicles. while the electric vehicle market is not embryonic, the industry is still certainly in its nascency. if prices of electric cars were across-the-board comparable to gasoline cars, the tax incentive would not be necessary. sure, we are getting closer to that point, but we aren't there yet. Congress unfortunately has to weigh the environmental benefits of electrifying the consumer transportation infrastructure against a tax break for the wealthy. or have they?

in 2019, 18.6% of Americans earned more than $150,000 per year (I cannot quickly locate a more recent figure). If the credit benefits 80+% of Americans, I don't see how this is a poor result. so then the question becomes whether your priority is an electric vehicle because you are trying to be environmentally conscious or whether your priority is flashing the new BMW tech around? I don't particularly care what any given person's priority is in this regard, but the bottom line is if you're buying electric for altruistic purposes, there are more affordable options than the BMW.

[summerlinlv]

I wonder if they will extend the home charging station tax credit.

[m3number86]

Lol at people who want handouts for their car. Maybe it's for ppl who have a hard time buying one. Not those in the market for luxury cars.

How come there's no cap? So we're all paying manufacturers??

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by slazLA

Not great situation here for many buyers.

Without getting into a policy debate, it does seem a bit odd that someone making a million dollars a year could buy a $100k iX and have the federal government subsidize part of the purchase.

However, it's what we've come to expect for EVs so any time the rules change people will be upset.

This bill could go into effect. Will it? Who knows given the current political situation.

If it were enacted, I feel confident it would NOT be for tax year 2022. The best we on here with recent i4 orders can hope is that the effective date will be 2024 tax year and not 2023.

Also I really hope they raise they raise the sedan price cap and align it with the SUV cap. Hard to see why that needs to be different.

Agree fully.. But to the bigger question why on a 100k car 95% of America can't afford that.

I don't think they need incentives via taxpayers to gets folks to roll into EVs.

They need to allow the market to support itself and and in time the cost of an EV will meet an ICE motor. An if it doesn't everyone shouldn't have to pay to support someone's fix. EVs are outdated like a cell phone 6months after it comes out, never mind the issues down the road of batteries losing charge and the mess of infrastructure.

It's very fair to say people that need car and or have a budget aren't buying EVs with an average price of 50k.

7500 x 200,000 EVs a year is a lot of money to find. As someone has to pay for that.

[scLA]

Originally Posted by jeffc42

I wonder what qualifies as a purchase order. I doubt a refundable deposit qualifies.

A great summary of the bill was posted to Reddit. If you look at the actual bill text, the vehicle needs to have a "written binding contract" to qualify under the old rules.

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricveh...tm_term=wa8viu

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by slazLA

A great summary of the bill was posted to Reddit. If you look at the actual bill text, the vehicle needs to have a "written binding contract" to qualify under the old rules.

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/wa8viu/summary_of_draft_ev_tax_credit_bill_with_code/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_ medium=post_embed&utm_name=89c0adb9e1634cdead122f3 7e7f64542&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=wa8viu

You get s purchase order when you put your deposit on a tesla. Im guessing these are the same with others. Not just some deposit to a dealer.

[jeffc42]

Originally Posted by slazLA

A great summary of the bill was posted to Reddit. If you look at the actual bill text, the vehicle needs to have a "written binding contract" to qualify under the old rules.

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricveh...tm_term=wa8viu

And as soon as I get a VIN, I'll get that contract. If it looks like that won't happen this year, then I'm bailing. Still week 36, not that that means %#$@.

Edit: Just read the summary, and it notes that 2022 orders delivered in 2023 qualify only if the orders happen before Biden signs it into law. The clock is ticking, BMW.

[scLA]

Originally Posted by jeffc42

And as soon as I get a VIN, I'll get that contract. If it looks like that won't happen this year, then I'm bailing. Still week 36, not that that means %#$@.

Edit: Just read the summary, and it notes that 2022 orders delivered in 2023 qualify only if the orders happen before Biden signs it into law. The clock is ticking, BMW.

It's pretty wild. I wouldn't be shocked if that provision of the bill changes and any confirmed orders from 2022 still qualify under the old rules, but honestly this bill probably has a good chance of passing.

One part that doesn't make sense to me is how the rebate could be given at point of sale if it has an income qualifier. Car dealers aren't in a position to verify if your MAGI is above or below a certain level.

[heatmizr]

Could they make these EV requirements any MORE complicated? WTF.
Going through that list to determine if any specific EV qualifies reads JUST like the IRS tax code today, makes my head spin.
We need simpler tax rules, not more lines and lines of rules.

Love the part where the Govt gets to string us along on the final battery requirements until the end of the year, nothing like defining rules the day before they go live! (and in some cases, AFTER the tax deadline!)

Sorry, went off the rails. I'll go grab a beer now, and hope that my recent i4 order will still qualify by the time I get it.

***So it sounds like next year there will be a limited provision to claim the "Old" incentive, but generally once these "New" rules go into place, there will be Nothing for i4's? Because even the base model is just over $55k?

[jeffc42]

Originally Posted by slazLA

One part that doesn't make sense to me is how the rebate could be given at point of sale if it has an income qualifier. Car dealers aren't in a position to verify if your MAGI is above or below a certain level.

That is a damn good point. It can't even be verified, in principle, because your MAGI depends on stuff like investment income, raises, bonuses, etc, which you don't fully know until year-end.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by slazLA

It's pretty wild. I wouldn't be shocked if that provision of the bill changes and any confirmed orders from 2022 still qualify under the old rules, but honestly this bill probably has a good chance of passing.

One part that doesn't make sense to me is how the rebate could be given at point of sale if it has an income qualifier. Car dealers aren't in a position to verify if your MAGI is above or below a certain level.

Will be an...o Sir you don't qualify after the fact.

Then you get a 7500 tax bill from the beefed up IRS. Then they will be like well you should of known when you bought the car your MAGI projections for the year.

Then wait for it... It's okay...then a 5 second pause

Also you didn't pay your taxes on time and there is now a 10% penalty with a 2% backwards compounding daily sub rate covid plus plus fee until you pay us. So the bill is now 11,000

jeffc42

[natemg]

The thing that pisses me off is that this is part of the energy bill right? Isn't the justification of the tax credit give incentive to move to EV's and PHEV's?

I get the income caps, I don't like them but I get the logic, if you make $150k you should be able to afford an PHEV or EV without the tax credit.

In my case the $7500 worked 2x. We were looking at the X5 I really thought we would end up with a 40. The fact that the 45e would work out to be cheaper in the end changed our mind. We have had it for 2 months and it has been to the gas station once. By now the 40 would have needed 4-5 fill ups. As for my next car, I was leaning towards one last ice car w/ lots of horsepower. I saw the i4, liked it, especially because it was less than the ICE cars I had been looking at. Yea I know there are less expensive ICE cars but the ones I was considering were more.

I'm not going to save the planet. I just don't like filling up, especially when the greedy bastard oil companies are gouging us.

[DocWeatherington]

[QUOTE=natemg;29161161]The thing that pisses me off is that this is part of the energy bill right? Isn't the justification of the tax credit give incentive to move to EV's and PHEV's?

I get the income caps, I don't like them but I get the logic, if you make $150k you should be able to afford an PHEV or EV without the tax credit.

In my case the $7500 worked 2x. We were looking at the X5 I really thought we would end up with a 40. The fact that the 45e would work out to be cheaper in the end changed our mind. We have had it for 2 months and it has been to the gas station once. By now the 40 would have needed 4-5 fill ups. As for my next car, I was leaning towards one last ice car w/ lots of horsepower. I saw the i4, liked it, especially because it was less than the ICE cars I had been looking at. Yea I know there are less expensive ICE cars but the ones I was considering were more.

I'm not going to save the planet. I just don't like filling up, especially when the greedy bastard oil companies are gouging us.


It's the whole system.. Why not speed 50 billion on e-fuels that can be put in ICE motors and net zero emissions.

In 10years, they will be like no more EVs..the cost of raw materials and mining is too high.

[admranger]

The really interesting part of the bill is the $4k per used EV purchased. So my neighbor and her daughter have identical Model Y Teslas. Could they sell their cars between themselves and pocket $8k? No sales tax on person to person sales in NV so what's the downside? I hope the fine bill writers thought of that little loophole or there will be a huge sale/resale market.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by admranger

The really interesting part of the bill is the $4k per used EV purchased. So my neighbor and her daughter have identical Model Y Teslas. Could they sell their cars between themselves and pocket $8k? No sales tax on person to person sales in NV so what's the downside? I hope the fine bill writers thought of that little loophole or there will be a huge sale/resale market.

Probably could lol

[antzcrashing]

Why do I have to read the article to learn why it doesn't apply to i4? I don't have that kind of attention span

[sfi4]

Here's the text of the bill, quick link to the relevant section which amends the previous rules surrounding the tax credit:

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo...2.pdf#page=366

Clear details:
• "The amendments made by this section shall apply to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2022." (Page 392)
• "TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that—(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as de-fined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act. (page 386)

So if you either 1) enter into a written binding purchase contract before the bill is signed (which could be in like a week for all we know), or 2) take delivery the end of this year, the old/current credit would apply.

Hope that's helpful.