[MalibuBimmer]

Dumping an incredibly heavy battery into a car and saying "Voila, it's an electric" requires some technical competence. Creating a new system for building an electric car, including sustainability and a new and more efficient way to manufacture carbon fiber to use throughout the car requires a different kind of technical competence. BMW has been thinking about and developing modern electric car technology since Elon Musk was soiling his diapers, as I mentioned above.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

Dumping an incredibly heavy battery into a car and saying "Voila, it's an electric" requires some technical competence. Creating a new system for building an electric car, including sustainability and a new and more efficient way to manufacture carbon fiber to use throughout the car requires a different kind of technical competence. BMW has been thinking about and developing modern electric car technology since Elon Musk was soiling his diapers, as I mentioned above.

From Wikipedia:

The General Motors EV1 was an electric car produced and leased by General Motors from 1996 to 1999.[1] It was the first mass-produced and purpose-designed electric vehicle of the modern era from a major automaker, the first GM car designed to be an electric vehicle from the outset along with being the first and only passenger car to be sold under the corporate General Motors (GM) name instead of being branded under one of its divisions.[2]

The decision to mass-produce an electric car came after GM received a favorable reception for its 1990 Impact electric concept car, upon which the design of the EV1 drew heavily. Inspired partly by the Impact's perceived potential for success, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) subsequently passed a mandate that made the production and sale of zero-emissions vehicles a requirement for the seven major automakers selling cars in the United States to continue to market their vehicles in California. The EV1 was made available through limited lease-only agreements, initially to residents of the cities of Los Angeles, California, and Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona.[3] EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group.[4][5] The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships. Within a year of the EV1's release, leasing programs were also launched in San Francisco and Sacramento, California, along with a limited program in the state of Georgia.

While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM believed that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market, and ended up crushing all their electric cars, regardless of protesting customers.[6] Furthermore, an alliance of the major automakers litigated the CARB regulation in court, resulting in a slackening of the ZEV stipulation, permitting the companies to produce super-low-emissions vehicles, natural gas vehicles, and hybrid cars in place of pure electrics. The EV1 program was subsequently discontinued in 2002, and all cars on the road were repossessed. Lessees were not given the option to purchase their cars from GM, which cited parts, service, and liability regulations.[1] The majority of the repossessed EV1s were crushed, and about 40 were delivered to museums and educational institutes with their electric powertrains deactivated, under the agreement that the cars were not to be reactivated and driven on the road. About 20 units were donated to overseas institutions. The only intact EV1 was donated to the Smithsonian Institution.[7]

The EV1's discontinuation remains controversial, with electric car enthusiasts, environmental interest groups and former EV1 lessees accusing GM of self-sabotaging its electric car program to avoid potential losses in spare parts sales (sales forced by government regulations), while also blaming the oil industry for conspiring to keep electric cars off the road.[1] As a result of the forced repossession and destruction of the majority of EV1s, an intact and working EV1 is one of the rarest cars from the 1990s.

BMW never mentioned an electric car program to put a usable car on the road until the Active E far far past 1990. In 1990, if you said BMW and electric car in the same sentence, the Bimmerheads would have laughed at you.

[MalibuBimmer]

Automakers often don't discuss their R&D until many years later, if at all.

BMW has disclosed its R&D work in electric dating back to 1971, the year Elon Musk was born (and also the year I bought my first BMW).

I'm not sure what the point is for quoting portions of the Wikipedia article.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

Automakers often don't discuss their R&D until many years later, if at all.

BMW has disclosed its R&D work in electric dating back to 1971, the year Elon Musk was born (and also the year I bought my first BMW).

I'm not sure what the point is for quoting portions of the Wikipedia article.

The point is BMW is way over stating their EV development history. So they electrified a 2002 in in the early '70s, BFD. Electric cars were in production 90 years earlier. I have an 1972 electric garden tractor produced by GE (ElekTrac), production starting in 1971, that is just as advanced as BMW's e2002. GM had an EV in production in 1996 and obviously started development far before then, showing prototype in 1990 when Elon was 20 years old and BMW was paying off the EPA for CAFE violations. GM introduced the Volt, which if you are looking for engineering prowess, was and is far more advanced in powertrain than anything BMW had/has in development at the time let alone in mass production. Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Honda, and Hyundai, ALL have beaten BMW to the punch regarding EVs and Hybrids. TRW basically introduced parallel hybrid technology in 1972, but no one in the industry wanted to adopt it, let alone BMW (if it had it could have leapfrogged its competitors by decades - as Toyota eventually did). BMW's claim to fame.... some advanced CF manufacturing development to get chassis weight down. And I know you'll go tout the i8 as an engineering tour de force, give me a break, the F'n thing costs $150,000. LOL. The i3? 80 mile range, just like the Leaf (at double the price).

The Gen II Volt... increased electric range by 15 miles, improved gas-mode fuel (reduced) consumption up from 37 to 42 MPG, and a 370 pound overall weight reduction of the vehicle while slightly increasing the cargo volume. The battery was increased in capacity while reducing the weight. The Volt's MPGe increases from 98 to 106 with the Gen II. Oh, and GM reduced the MSRP too. That my friend is damned good engineering. BMW is a joke at EV/hybrid production compared to the industry and is years behind the competition. BMW was paying off EPA CAFE violations (probably bought carbon credits from Elon like everyone else has) while the rest of the industry was preparing EVs and Hybrids for production...

One final point... Go to an SAE conference and see how much discussion of R&D goes on, you'd be surprised.

[MalibuBimmer]

Driving a sporty BMW i8 is something I'm willing to pay to do at BMW's prices. I'm not willing to look like a dork driving a Tesla S, aka Buick with a Hyundai interior, at any price.

Perhaps someone can alert Elon Musk to the fact that carbon fiber exists. And introduce him to someone who can design the interior of an automobile without slapping down an incredibly ungainly laptop in lieu of properly designed controls.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

Driving a sporty BMW i8 is something I'm willing to pay to do at BMW's prices. I'm not willing to look like a dork driving a Tesla S, aka Buick with a Hyundai interior, at any price.

Perhaps someone can alert Elon Musk to the fact that carbon fiber exists. And introduce him to someone who can design the interior of an automobile without slapping down an incredibly ungainly laptop in lieu of properly designed controls.

Have you guys seen the model X!

It's like 130k base and looks so old already. I'm all for keeping a family look but it's like one of those movies that they kept having to work out to get right and then turned out all wrong.

It's missed it's prime time and now looks dated and not even a new interior. Personally we had a tesla in the studio here for a material and craftsmanship review and the interior of that car looks like what suppliers design and bring to us on supplier day to showcase their new technology. It's very crude as a whole and to be honest and not fitting of a 70k dollar car let alone the new 130k base model x though it has a couple nice features doesn't do anything for me. Again just my opinion and not a shred of fact I will say however that the big ass monitor in the middle of the dash is actually a big cost reduction for them as everything is software driven vs having to tool up hard parts but the down side of that is you have to take your eye off the road every time you want to Adjust the temp. Their is a place for actual buttons and nobs, not to mention that well executed nobs and buttons add a level of refinement and quality and luxurious look that a screen can't do. I think this is one reason the tesla interior looks cheap to me. Something that is to clean and simple can sometimes look plain and cheap.

But it is their first car so if that's taken into consideration then hats off to them!

Now that's not really about the whole question that was brought up but looks like tesla is going to even get more normal here for the next 3rd generation model saying that they are going to normalize the construction of the body from aluminum to steel so they can compete with the current German car offerings. That way reducing costs to become more competitive.

But regardless tesla has an uphill battle, with the dealer unions and recent hit to their stock with the model X reveal and all that jazz I do hope they can come out ok. Don't wish any ill will. But instead of arguing who was first or who is making better quality vehicles, it's all good as with the competition going on we all win as the cars will be getting better and better and in the end we will have an amazing offering that keeps getting better and better. Besides being first to the party doesn't make you better. But what you do over time to your product is really the story of your future, so far tesla has been the same for quite a while and the competition is not resting and is set to leap frog them so let's see what they do to keep the ball rolling.

Good time to be alive if i do say so.

[Efthreeoh]

Tesla is a startup car company that's barely 10 years old. It costs billions of dollars to develop a car and put it on the road, and that's for an established manufacturer with decades of experience and corporate infrastructure and manufacturing assets behind it. For Tesla to stand up a new company and produce what is a viable automobile is downright amazing. Yes, the Government (Federal and state) has help quite a bit, with EV mandates, tax incentives, and carbon credits, but still it's an amazing feat.

Regarding the big screen in the dash, I think it was more driven by design of IT philosophy rather than cost considerations. All cars are going to screen HMI control, it's just Tesla as a clean-sheet design skipped the button/knob interface era. You can't make an argument that BMW's iDrive (or any of the others) are any less distracting that Tesla's HMI. Gone are the days of the E30 where you could change the temperature, adjust the air flow, and change the fan speed without looking all the while at 70 MPH in a deep right hander...

And yeah, the S is a aluminum-intensive chassis (it's beautiful in raw form), with just big battery (I've said that very same thing in these pages somewhere too), but it still is a game-changer. And the design and engineering are not trivial. If the Tesla S wasn't a game chnager, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, wouldn't be chasing the platform and sticking to their twin-turbo 4-bangers to meet O'Bama's 52 MPG mandate. Any EV meets it with ease, regardless of the practicality.

And Elon makes rockets and launches satellites, I'm sure he's well versed in carbon fiber...

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Tesla is a startup car company that's barely 10 years old. It costs billions of dollars to develop a car and put it on the road, and that's for an established manufacturer with decades of experience and corporate infrastructure and manufacturing assets behind it. For Tesla to stand up a new company and produce what is a viable automobile is downright amazing. Yes, the Government (Federal and state) has help quite a bit, with EV mandates, tax incentives, and carbon credits, but still it's an amazing feat.

Regarding the big screen in the dash, I think it was more driven by design of IT philosophy rather than cost considerations. All cars are going to screen HMI control, it's just Tesla as a clean-sheet design and skipped the button/knob interface era. You can't make an argument that BMW's iDrive (or any of the others) are any less distracting that Tesla's HMI. Gone are the days of the E30 where you could change the temperature, adjust the air flow, and change the fan speed without looking all the while at 70 MPH in a deep right hander...

And Elon makes rockets and launches satellites, I'm sure he's well versed in carbon fiber...

Yea I know, I'm in the business of auto design and their was much better ways they could have done that center stack. I've had a few friends leave our company to go work for them. They enjoy the new atmosphere without decades of stale air whiffing around them from the normal ways of business in design.

I'm not disagreeing with you but neither of us have actual definitive answers to what drove them for the screen and more speculation of intentions, I'm just speaking from over 10 years of experience in auto design, it's cheaper yes, that's why we're looking at things like this but ergonomics keeps us from diving right in as facts show that people enjoy not having to take eyes off the road with screens you don't get muscle memory.

Plus the market is really going away from center stack monitors altogether it's really all moving to the gauge cluster and HUD. I'm lucky that I get to see a few years in the future. The push is safety and when eyes are off the road you run risks of accidents.

Hence why fords whole touch sensitive system was a colossal failure and can actually give your car worse resale value. Some things are great in concept but sometimes fail in execution.

Also what works in the showroom floor also doesn't sometimes work in real life driving situations. One of our suppliers drives a tesla that he bought for his wife and they both liked the screen at first then after having the car for a while wish some controls where at least hard controls.

Marketing can tell you whatever they want and spin it for the best thing since sliced bread but the fact is research shows that screens everywhere is not the answer.

But my real heartburn for it was they could have at least styled it differently than just shoving a rectangle in the dash. The car is aging fast it will be interesting to see how they keep buyers interested as they refresh the model.

As I said earlier their a fresh startup and made a great first product but you can't just sit and use the same formula for every car they need to innovate, theirs nothing that makes their car truly innovative. I mean it's a 5000 pound car and where's the push to lighten it. Think about how great it be if they could take the weight out. Better breaking, acceleration, mile range increase.

If anything they should work with Bmw like Toyota has and work on making it with new materials that represent the future of automobiles and reduce its weight. Hell they could by reducing weight probably reduce its battery size keep its range and increase its performance which is better in all aspects.

Elon touts future in everything he talked about but even their new car is built on yesterday's technology.