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      06-08-2014, 12:36 PM   #23
Efthreeoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindmachine View Post
I understand what you are saying about the 2.5 gallons of gas, tell me how far will that 2.5 gal of gas take you in a ICE powered car with the same specs as the Tesla S, weight, size and performance. Maybe 60 miles if you are lucky, compared to the 200 mile range of the Tesla. So yes I understand if you could release that energy efficiently, but you can't. Many companies have spent millions over the years trying, not just car companies either.

What you apparently don't seem to get is that the internal combustion engine has been around a long time and continued R&D is not going to improve the efficiency to any significant extent. Don't you think that with the government mandated efficiency requirements as they currently exist; that the car companies are currently trying to squeeze out as many mpg as possible right now. I worked in this industry my job was in the R&D lab doing exactly what you suggest. Let me tell you, there is not much room for additional efficiency gains. Plus you still have the (pollution) emissions from the ICE.
Comparing the efficiency of the machine that burns the 2.5 gallons vs. the efficiency of the machine that uses 2.5 gallons of equivalent electrical energy was NEVER my point. You are making up an argument just to try and win it.

Your statement in bold IS exactly my point. Because of the political incorrectness of burning hydrocarbon fuel (with resultant tailpipe emissions) R&D dollars are not going into development of an engine (i.e. a device that chemically converts energy to mechanical work - of whatever design is more efficient than a modern-day ICE). I used ceramic engines just as an example. How about a hydrocarbon fueled fuel-cell instead if that example makes you feel better. It's possible the current ICE design and materials used for it may be near their design limits and can't gain any more efficiency by reducing heat loss, but my point is the societal will (i.e. Government funding) will not try to further the state of the art anyway, so we'll never find out.

We are now going around in circles, so we should probably stop...
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      06-08-2014, 03:44 PM   #24
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A fuel cell uses just the hydrogen, and if you use gasoline as your source, you still have waste gasses, so it doesn't help the environment that way. Building up a viable source for H2 isn't going to happen on a mass scale any time soon...that molecule is just too small to contain easily, and compressing it to a useful density still costs a fair amount of energy just on its own, not counting extracting it in the first place, regardless of where you get it from. With current tech, you either have to make it on site, or truck it to where it is needed, pipelines are not viable. There are not too many retail H2 locations out there. Fuel cell powered EVs will have limited regional sales to where fuel is available in the near term (Toyota, maybe next year), and will be as much an experiment as the plug-in EVs on the road now, but unlike an H2 source, pretty much everyone has an electrical outlet available to them.
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      06-09-2014, 03:39 PM   #25
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By missing my point, you guys are making my point - LOL.
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      06-12-2014, 04:16 PM   #26
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IMHO, it comes down to the cost of the energy it takes to power the vehicle and how much direct impact it has on the ecology. If you consider that most of the newer vehicles, and especially the i3 are built to be recycled (one of the primary design goals of the i-brand), and that even with the pollution generated by making the electricity (and in some cases, it is wind, solar, tide, hydro where there is no direct pollution since nothing is burned to get it), the impact of the EV is pretty small and definitely greener than an ICE that is spewing greenhouse gasses all the time it is running. And, where I live with the car I currently have, my fuel cost per mile on my ICE is about $0.20/mile whereas my EV cost is closer to $0.05/mile, and the EV doesn't need regular oil changes, antifreeze, or much of any other lubrication, the impact of it is fairly low in comparison.

Back to the OP's question, is the i3 risky...no more so than many things in life. Will CFRP get cheaper...maybe, maybe not. BMW spent a lot of time and money getting it to the point where they could mass produce a vehicle with it without pricing the thing out of the market. When you look at the features and execution of the i3 verses the other similar EV's out there, IMHO, it is worth the cost. Will the battery technology get better and maybe less expensive? Probably. I do not expect a breakthrough on electric motors, or much else in the vehicle verses what we have today, though, that would make it cheaper or more reliable. You could get run down crossing the street or struck by lightning, or get cancer tomorrow...I don't consider the i3 to be risky in the scheme of things. Now, I do not (yet) own one, but expect to in a bit. I'll roll with the punches as things evolve.
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      06-13-2014, 05:36 AM   #27
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We need to have real discussions regarding electricity generation. It is nice to think that "renewable" electrical generation sources are powering our vehicles and the plants that produce them, but in reality the plant-footprint that those forms of energy take to produce an equivalent amount of electricity that is currently consumed for industrial production, would soon turn the landscape into pure ugliness. Go to upstate New York on RT 11 where it crosses the border with Vermont at Lake Champlain and really see how you like the hundreds of windmills built there. Stop and get out of your car and listen to the whop-whop of the blades slowly turning. Ask the residents if they appreciate it (the rich folk in Martha's Vineyards sure didn't like the idea of a wind farm at the Cape). As long as the city folk who never see where their electricity comes from to power their EVs, renewable energy is great, too bad for the country dwellers who have to put up with the ugliness and noise.

According to the EPA we ALL spew greenhouse gases. Stop breathing and farting anyone? Maybe kill our dogs too, what's more important, our pets or the planet? Yeah, though so.
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      06-13-2014, 12:04 PM   #28
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FWIW, the wind farm planned off the Cape was quite a bit out to sea, and very unlikely to be heard unless you were out boating. The hangup there was/is a remnant of indigenous Indians that claim the view from Martha's Vineyard is part of their religious practices, and they would spoil the view for the few times a year they gather there.

Any activity has it's ramifications. Burning fossil fuels to move from place to place may not be the most efficient use of those materials.

An interesting aside is the kickstarter solar roadways program http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/25/the...olar-roadways/
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      06-13-2014, 12:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
FWIW, the wind farm planned off the Cape was quite a bit out to sea, and very unlikely to be heard unless you were out boating. The hangup there was/is a remnant of indigenous Indians that claim the view from Martha's Vineyard is part of their religious practices, and they would spoil the view for the few times a year they gather there.

Any activity has it's ramifications. Burning fossil fuels to move from place to place may not be the most efficient use of those materials.

An interesting aside is the kickstarter solar roadways program http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/25/the...olar-roadways/
But all the houses, boats, and shops on Martha's don't spoil the view... LOL, yeah go with that. LOL

It was the rich peeps not wanting ugly windmills in their backyard (ocean view).
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      06-13-2014, 05:35 PM   #30
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      06-14-2014, 05:42 AM   #31
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It's talking about the risk of owning an EV and the issue regarding batteries.
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      06-14-2014, 06:49 AM   #32
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If BMW's choice on batteries and on-board electronics to manage them is wrong, they're going to take a big hit on their 8year/100,000 mile battery warranty. Now, how well they'll be working after that is anyone's guess. And, since the car is useless without functioning batteries, just like an engine rebuilt (which on BMW isn't cheap), you may need to replace them at a fairly significant cost. But, I do expect them to have some residual valuable...the materials in them will provide at least some offset to new ones. The resale value on the car will decrease because of the uncertainty, but is not much of an issue if you decide to keep the car longer. When it is time to replace the batteries, should you keep it that long, at least the aluminum/plastic/cfrp chassis should still be in decent shape, should you wish to do that so I don't consider it a throw-away item.
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      06-14-2014, 10:50 PM   #33
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The i3 risk is predominantly around the financials and competition. The number of issues getting reported on the i3 Facebook page is starting to get a little concerning. At least two people have reported air conditioning issues, and three have reported having the car stop entirely. This is above and beyond the CEL issues virtually every U.S. Rex owner has and some of the reality folks are facing with regard to the suicide door setup.
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      06-18-2014, 12:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
The i3 risk is predominantly around the financials and competition. The number of issues getting reported on the i3 Facebook page is starting to get a little concerning. At least two people have reported air conditioning issues, and three have reported having the car stop entirely. This is above and beyond the CEL issues virtually every U.S. Rex owner has and some of the reality folks are facing with regard to the suicide door setup.
I, personally, have noticed a few minor issues with the BEV i3 first of which is how the car behaves by turning off when the door is opened. I accidentally caused a drivetrain malfunction by turning the ignition off and on several times with the door open. Went away after I turned it off and back on again and drove around the lot. I wouldn't worry about it.

Haven't heard of the A/C or the vehicle dying issues...can you elaborate?
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      06-18-2014, 07:23 PM   #35
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My new "d" has gotten 49mpg on several long Interstate trips.That suggests that I can get 750 miles from a tank of diesel...which took about 3 minutes to "recharge".If your driving is exclusively city and you have easy access to a plug an electric *might* make sense.If not,diesel is the way to go.
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      06-20-2014, 08:07 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
The i3 risk is predominantly around the financials and competition. The number of issues getting reported on the i3 Facebook page is starting to get a little concerning. At least two people have reported air conditioning issues, and three have reported having the car stop entirely. This is above and beyond the CEL issues virtually every U.S. Rex owner has and some of the reality folks are facing with regard to the suicide door setup.
just a heads up, it is a software issue not a hardware issue

" A/C system does not operate on i3 BEV. ISTA diagnosis shows IHKA fault 801130 (Heat Pump general functional error), in some cases accompanied with consequential faults for the heat pump pressure/temperature sensor, or switch valve. Do not replace any components, since this situation is caused by a software error. To eliminate this software glitch, a temporary IRAP solution has been implemented"

that was straight from DCS
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Last edited by Kevin_Genius@BMWMtLaurel; 06-20-2014 at 08:22 AM..
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      06-23-2014, 12:36 PM   #37
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      07-02-2014, 04:03 PM   #38
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forgot to post this for you all, this is in regard to the CEL on REX models

"Intermittently, a Check Engine Light (CEL) may be illuminated on i3 REX vehicles, without a relevant fault code stored. It is an erroneous display and it's not affecting drivability, emissions, or functionality of the vehicle. To eliminate this software glitch, a temporary IRAP solution has been implemented. In case of customer's complaint of CEL illuminated (without emissions related faults stored), submit a PuMA case titled "I01 CEL - No Faults" requesting IRAP reprogramming. Make sure that the vehicle's integration level is at 14-03-505 prior to the IRAP session. SI B12 10 14 is going to be released shortly."

straight from DSCnet
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      07-10-2014, 09:35 AM   #39
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Latest on s/w updates for the i3

I got this from my BMW rep today:

On affected vehicles, an IHKA (AC Control module) software error may cause
either an A/C system malfunction (no cooling of passenger compartment on BEV vehicles), or an erroneous display of the Check Engine light with any fault codes stored (REX vehicles).

Recently, BMW has became aware of some intermittent, software related
deficiencies of Model Year 2014 BMW i3 vehicles. Specifically, CEL lamp may
be illuminated on i3 REX vehicles and A/C system may be inoperative on i3
BEV cars. Both product situations have been communicated via Service
Bulletins (SI B12 10 14 and SI B64 02 14), and the IRAP reprogramming
solution has been implemented.

They expect this to become available in the second week of August.
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      07-11-2014, 02:15 PM   #40
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I would never consider purchasing a new electric or hybrid car from any brand. Leasing is the only way to go. With the speed at which tech advances these days, I would not want to be caught with an outdated electric car. Also don't exactly trust the tech this early in the game. So leasing and being able to turn the car back over to BMW makes more sense.
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      07-13-2014, 09:59 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindmachine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You can say whatever you want about being some retired engineer, but math is math. You're the first engineer that doesn't understand algebra apparently. 85kWH divided by 33.7 kWh/gal gas (per gallon of gasoline - look it up) = 2.52 gallons of gas equivalent energy. Don't know else how to explain it. According to Car & Driver the Tesla 85kWh battery weighs 1323 pounds. 1323 pounds divided by 2.52 gallons = 525 pounds per gallon of gasoline energy equivalent. I was using rough numbers in my previous post.

LOL
Well now we have established you understand multiplication and division, by the way algebra is not required for you calculation, but that's ok I excelled in algebra and calculus too. Not to mention differential equations.

So internal combustion engines are inherently inefficient if they get less miles per kwh than the electric motor used in EV's!!!! according to your number even.!!!

You are making progress here.

However I will give you a hint, the Toyota Prius plug-in is the most efficient EV on the planet. look at the numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wrong. The Prius is a hybrid, not an EV !
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      07-13-2014, 12:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
Wrong. The Prius is a hybrid, not an EV !
I know that geeezzzzeeeee! It,s a PHEV. And your comment was really needed I suppose.
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      07-14-2014, 09:24 AM   #43
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"Recently, BMW has became aware of some intermittent, software related deficiencies of Model Year 2014 BMW i3 vehicles. Specifically, CEL lamp may be illuminated on i3 REX vehicles and A/C system may be inoperative on i3 BEV cars. Both product situations have been communicated via Service Bulletins (SI B12 10 14 and SI B64 02 14), and the IRAP reprogramming solution has been implemented.

Moreover, to enhance i3 driving experiences and reduce number of customer complaints, BMW has decided to launch a preventive action called the “Customer Care Package: Software Update”, to reprogram all affected i3 vehicles in customers possession and prior to delivery.

All affected vehicles will be reprogrammed with the software patch (target integration I001-03-506) via the IRAP programming sessions.

Starting Monday, July 7th, Customer Relations department will be calling BMW i3 drivers of affected vehicles, advising them to schedule an appointment with their authorized BMW i3 center (copy of the “Customer Care Software Package – Q & A” is attached).

It is mandatory, that prior to the IRAP programming session, the vehicle’s integration level be checked and reprogrammed with the latest version of ISTA/P (2.52.5) to the level I001-03-505, if required.

After submitting a PuMA case titled "I01 Customer Care", the IRAP session will be requested (during operation hours of 8:00 AM to 7:30 PM EST). All needed details of this Customer Care Program, including warranty information, can be found in SI B12 11 14."


straight from DCSnet


forgot to post this last week
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      07-15-2014, 11:03 PM   #44
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I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but would like to share my real-world experiences

I bought an i3REX 15 days ago. In those 15 days
1) My check engine light has come on (well documented problem)
2) My check engine light has turned itself off and back on again
3) I have not been able to use the Low-Cost timer charge function with the BMW provided 120V charger
4) The windshield noise at freeway speeds is laughable
5) Range 30% less than the claim. They conveniently forgot to mention their range is based on a top speed 55mph and no A/C or fan.
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