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      10-19-2021, 12:48 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accident View Post
Tesla Vision only autopilot is limited to 80 mph. So, there’s that.
Got it, so Tesla's spec(increased from 75mph to 80mph recently) is not as aggressive as BMW's(20mph to 130mph).

Maybe there should be some safety ratings that provide a score that reflects just that?
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      10-19-2021, 01:41 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accident View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Do note Tesla's 8-10 cameras are pointing in different directions/angles, if one camera goes down, that specific field of vision will be missed.

It is true the system can disengage due to camera malfunction, but just imagine the system disengage at 100+mph when someone pulls in front of you 200m ahead due to non-redundant system ....

From the previously attached article, Tesla has 3 forward cameras to cover different distances, but do note that they also cover different fields/angles of vision, so something will be missed if any of them malfunctions.
Tesla Vision only autopilot is limited to 80 mph. So, there’s that.
80MPH would indicate that it's.lomited.forneither safety reasons or at 80mph, the time to acquire, process and react would have you running into an object.

Also I missed a post where someone was talking about how far a camera can see and the effective distance of BMW ACC.

A vision systems can be blinded by intense light.
Also dense fog or rain can cause issues. The same types of things that blind a person will blind the car.

As for radar, minimally effected by rain and fog. Another key point is that a radar system knows if a dense object is ahead, even if covered.
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      10-19-2021, 01:54 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
80MPH would indicate that it's.lomited.forneither safety reasons or at 80mph, the time to acquire, process and react would have you running into an object.

Also I missed a post where someone was talking about how far a camera can see and the effective distance of BMW ACC.

A vision systems can be blinded by intense light.
Also dense fog or rain can cause issues. The same types of things that blind a person will blind the car.

As for radar, minimally effected by rain and fog. Another key point is that a radar system knows if a dense object is ahead, even if covered.
There should really be more sophisticated IIHS (or whoever) tests that highlight all these system limitations, such that customers can be informed of what they pay for.
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      10-19-2021, 09:23 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
80MPH would indicate that it's.lomited.forneither safety reasons or at 80mph, the time to acquire, process and react would have you running into an object.

Also I missed a post where someone was talking about how far a camera can see and the effective distance of BMW ACC.

A vision systems can be blinded by intense light.
Also dense fog or rain can cause issues. The same types of things that blind a person will blind the car.

As for radar, minimally effected by rain and fog. Another key point is that a radar system knows if a dense object is ahead, even if covered.
There should really be more sophisticated IIHS (or whoever) tests that highlight all these system limitations, such that customers can be informed of what they pay for.
That might work with BMW because they follow the rules. Tesla pushed safety related updates and does not notify.
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      10-19-2021, 04:15 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
That might work with BMW because they follow the rules. Tesla pushed safety related updates and does not notify.
Tesla has been treated quite leniently by NHTSA, and that's not good for the uninformed public.
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      10-20-2021, 08:47 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Tesla has been treated quite leniently by NHTSA, and that's not good for the uninformed public.
NHTSA currently has an open investigation into Autopilot and FSD so this isn't quite a fair statement...
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      10-20-2021, 11:12 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Tesla has been treated quite leniently by NHTSA, and that's not good for the uninformed public.
NHTSA currently has an open investigation into Autopilot and FSD so this isn't quite a fair statement...
They just opened it.

They have been given a pass so far. But the current investigation is due to new algorithms to recognize safety vehicles in bad weather.

The feds say that should have been a recall and them notified. Tesla doesn't notify when they do OTA pushes no matter what they affect.

The feds say, when you make a safety related change it requires notification.

I agree, but Tesla does not. I see a court.fight coming.
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      10-20-2021, 11:57 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
They just opened it.

They have been given a pass so far. But the current investigation is due to new algorithms to recognize safety vehicles in bad weather.

The feds say that should have been a recall and them notified. Tesla doesn't notify when they do OTA pushes no matter what they affect.

The feds say, when you make a safety related change it requires notification.

I agree, but Tesla does not. I see a court.fight coming.
Now is the correct time to have opened it. Maybe 6-12 months ago? But NHTSA is not like the forums, where one complainy person gets an investigation opened. This is a federal agency. So I don't see that Tesla has been "given a pass".

Having said that, I feel like Tesla is going to lose big time with this one. And I can't say that I'm sad about that.
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      10-20-2021, 02:16 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Now is the correct time to have opened it. Maybe 6-12 months ago? But NHTSA is not like the forums, where one complainy person gets an investigation opened. This is a federal agency. So I don't see that Tesla has been "given a pass".

Having said that, I feel like Tesla is going to lose big time with this one. And I can't say that I'm sad about that.
There has been complaints to NHTSA in last few years concerning safety related OTAs(the following one from 2 yrs ago), so Tesla has been doing hidden safety recalls for a long while.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/201...19005-8133.PDF
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      10-20-2021, 03:46 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Now is the correct time to have opened it. Maybe 6-12 months ago? But NHTSA is not like the forums, where one complainy person gets an investigation opened. This is a federal agency. So I don't see that Tesla has been "given a pass".

Having said that, I feel like Tesla is going to lose big time with this one. And I can't say that I'm sad about that.
There has been complaints to NHTSA in last few years concerning safety related OTAs(the following one from 2 yrs ago), so Tesla has been doing hidden safety recalls for a long while.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/201...19005-8133.PDF
If Ford, GM, BMW, etc did this.........
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      11-08-2021, 01:28 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
So they really made sure it wouldn't be faster than the new M3/M4 (0-60)
They could have easily made this faster to compete with model 3, but can't have a less expensive model faster than a M3


Full blown i4M with let's say 700+ hp and in its own platform weighing 4500 lbs or so would be amazing.

Makes me think that's what they are waiting for. Next gen when they can get weight down they will do it.
...Waiting for the Next Gen M5....



https://www-caranddriver-com.cdn.amp...c-prototype%2F




I don't think any EV at this point would hold up to the M standard. It would weigh too much, be handling and cooling compromised.

Plus this isn't even a dedicated effort as this underneath is the 3/4 series with the ICE motor ripped out and replaced with EV tech, based upon last generation tech.
This is sort of funny.

"I don't think any EV at this point would hold up to the M standard. It would weigh too much, be handling and cooling compromised."

You could *almost* replace 'EV' with every successive generation of M Car.
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      11-08-2021, 02:54 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundown View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
So they really made sure it wouldn't be faster than the new M3/M4 (0-60)
They could have easily made this faster to compete with model 3, but can't have a less expensive model faster than a M3


Full blown i4M with let's say 700+ hp and in its own platform weighing 4500 lbs or so would be amazing.

Makes me think that's what they are waiting for. Next gen when they can get weight down they will do it.
...Waiting for the Next Gen M5....



https://www-caranddriver-com.cdn.amp...c-prototype%2F




I don't think any EV at this point would hold up to the M standard. It would weigh too much, be handling and cooling compromised.

Plus this isn't even a dedicated effort as this underneath is the 3/4 series with the ICE motor ripped out and replaced with EV tech, based upon last generation tech.
This is sort of funny.

"I don't think any EV at this point would hold up to the M standard. It would weigh too much, be handling and cooling compromised."

You could *almost* replace 'EV' with every successive generation of M Car.
That is kind of funny.

My E90 weighed more than my E36 which weighed more than my E30.

Each generation of car M or otherwise weighed more.

I did see the article on tri-motor M5 possibility. While interesting; I don't need to go faster. I need longer distance.

The M50 has plenty in the HP/torque department. I would say than 99% of people are going to run out of road before they run out of car.
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      11-08-2021, 03:09 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I did see the article on tri-motor M5 possibility. While interesting; I don't need to go faster. I need longer distance.
Yes, EV range is top priority of EV customers.

ICE customers have similar priorities too, e.g. many G20 folks are elated by 0-60, but no one ignores great mpg(my 330i gets 46.4mpg!) and great range.
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      11-08-2021, 09:25 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I did see the article on tri-motor M5 possibility. While interesting; I don't need to go faster. I need longer distance.
Yes, EV range is top priority of EV customers.

ICE customers have similar priorities too, e.g. many G20 folks are elated by 0-60, but no one ignores great mpg(my 330i gets 46.4mpg!) and great range.
There is a.point where more HP/torque becomes a pissing match.

I really think we are at that point. My E90 had about 400 HP and about the same torque.

I could not, at least on public roads, could not use anywhere near the limits of performance.

I figure the i4 M50 hits the diminishing return threshold. For me any additional performance is a waste.

I above always purchased cars for a.mix of performance and comfort. Gas mileage wasn't an issue since none have been "gas guzzlers".

I don't know if the M50 would fit that definition,; it might due to weight and range. I'm still buying it. I haven't seen anything else that doesn't cost the whole six figures that I like.
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      11-08-2021, 09:52 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
There is a.point where more HP/torque becomes a pissing match.

I really think we are at that point. My E90 had about 400 HP and about the same torque.

I could not, at least on public roads, could not use anywhere near the limits of performance.

I figure the i4 M50 hits the diminishing return threshold. For me any additional performance is a waste.

I above always purchased cars for a.mix of performance and comfort. Gas mileage wasn't an issue since none have been "gas guzzlers".

I don't know if the M50 would fit that definition,; it might due to weight and range. I'm still buying it. I haven't seen anything else that doesn't cost the whole six figures that I like.
My E39 was surging I6 NA 5MT 0-60 in 6.8 seconds and that felt fast.

The next F30 was flat (power band) I4 turbo 8AT 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and that was fast.

The current G20 was flat (power band) I4 turbo 8AT 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, and is just as fast as previous F30, and rotates even better than E39/F30 at cloverleaves and flyovers(with Tesla 5-6 car lengths behind!).

I would say the E39 felt the most engaging(to plot ahead/around/behind), with full surging power band utilized all the time.

The 8AT's really are stepping stones towards PHEV/BEV/FCEV.

I like BEVs with 0-60 around 5-6 seconds, so i4 eDrive40, Model 3 SR/LR, etc, etc, are the ones of interest to me.

With battery/BEV/FCEV/PHEV advancements, I want these:
  • 0-60 around 5-6 seconds
  • battery safety
  • fast charging
  • 15 years/150000 miles 80% battery warranty
  • 500-600 miles of range
  • 3500lb
  • G20-like handling
  • reliable and safe ADAS(or automaker takes 100% liability, or zero ADAS).

Last edited by bavarianride; 11-08-2021 at 10:08 PM..
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      11-08-2021, 10:34 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
There is a.point where more HP/torque becomes a pissing match.

I really think we are at that point. My E90 had about 400 HP and about the same torque.

I could not, at least on public roads, could not use anywhere near the limits of performance.

I figure the i4 M50 hits the diminishing return threshold. For me any additional performance is a waste.

I above always purchased cars for a.mix of performance and comfort. Gas mileage wasn't an issue since none have been "gas guzzlers".

I don't know if the M50 would fit that definition,; it might due to weight and range. I'm still buying it. I haven't seen anything else that doesn't cost the whole six figures that I like.
My E39 was surging I6 NA 5MT 0-60 in 6.8 seconds and that felt fast.

The next F30 was flat (power band) I4 turbo 8AT 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and that was fast.

The current G20 was flat (power band) I4 turbo 8AT 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, and is just as fast as previous F30, and rotates even better than E39/F30 at cloverleaves and flyovers(with Tesla 5-6 car lengths behind!).

I would say the E39 felt the most engaging(to plot ahead/around/behind), with full surging power band utilized all the time.

The 8AT's really are stepping stones towards PHEV/BEV/FCEV.

I like BEVs with 0-60 around 5-6 seconds, so i4 eDrive40, Model 3 SR/LR, etc, etc, are the ones of interest to me.

With battery/BEV/FCEV/PHEV advancements, I want these:
  • 0-60 around 5-6 seconds
  • battery safety
  • fast charging
  • 15 years/150000 miles 80% battery warranty
  • 500-600 miles of range
  • 3500lb
  • G20-like handling
  • reliable and safe ADAS(or automaker takes 100% liability, or zero ADAS).
I think you are years off to get the battery density/range you want in a 3500 lb package.I personally don't care about weight if the range is there. Just like a ICE car range requires a bigger battery (tank) and fast means higher energy consumption. There just isn't a free lunch.

Currently Tesla is moving toward iron batteries in the TM3 that have more cycles and weigh more. Cost less

It's now a battery tech race. Higher energy density and away from lithium.

Right now that long range car you want is a Lucid.
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      11-09-2021, 08:01 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansn View Post

Not very hard to understand that he managed to push it from 425km range to 290. Its a WELL known fact that you will have to charge more if you go faster in any EV.
People are silly, it is a well known fact that if you drive hard a + 500 HP ICE engine it will siphon the fuel tank like no tomorrow. EPA figure mean nothing on ICE and EV vehicle, it depend of weather and driving style. I can tell you that here in Canada, any ICE vehicle consumme 30% more in winter.

Looks like what's known and accepted for an Ice vehicle isn't for an EV.
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      11-09-2021, 01:19 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Currently Tesla is moving toward iron batteries in the TM3 that have more cycles and weigh more. Cost less
I assume iron battery is safer than Li one, and at reduced cost? If so that will be a good thing.
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      11-09-2021, 01:54 PM   #151
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Currently Tesla is moving toward iron batteries in the TM3 that have more cycles and weigh more. Cost less
I assume iron battery is safer than Li one, and at reduced cost? If so that will be a good thing.
The iron battery is safer.

It is heavier, but you can hide that by increasing the number of cells so range isn't affected. This can only be done in lower end models.

Finally is it cheaper since iron is readily available. The cost reduction is converted to profit. It is not passed.to the consumer as a cheaper car.
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      11-10-2021, 08:42 PM   #152
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Would love to see manufacturers to start quoting range at certain speed.
For example 400 miles at 80/90/100mph on top of the current range only
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