[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Except it is missing Cross Traffic Alert, Blind Spot Indicator, HUD, 360 Surround view, Massage Seats, CarPlay, Apple Music native app, anti-dazzle high beam or the ability to set way-points in Navigation.

Honestly those are the least of Tesla's shortcomings.

[zilla91]

Tesla can't even get automatic windscreen wipers to work properly ��

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-awful.207625/

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

What Model 3 lacks is not traditional luxury trapping, but basic build quality and ride quality and safety margin...

Try riding in the back seat of any recent B-Class AMG or M car if you think the Model 3P’s ride quality is lacking.

It doesn’t matter how many times you try to assert that Tesla’s cell/safety design is sub-par. It’s simply not true. We Tesla drivers appreciate the extra space on the road though!

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

…And I am sure that you, like most other Tesla owners, don't care any of those and would claim that they are not important.

But for me, those are deal-breakers, sorry.

That’s cool, and yep the only one of those that I’d care about is Waypoints. The good thing is that this feature will eventually be added via OTA update.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Except it is missing Cross Traffic Alert, Blind Spot Indicator, HUD, 360 Surround view, Massage Seats, CarPlay, Apple Music native app, anti-dazzle high beam or the ability to set way-points in Navigation.

And I am sure that you, like most other Tesla owners, don't care any of those and would claim that they are not important.

But for me, those are deal-breakers, sorry.

Exactly.

I like the trappings of a luxury car
I like leather and all the luxury. I could no more buy a Camry than a TM3.

I might not get the HUD because it looks to be removed, but when they ask me for options? Check the combination of boxes that makes it fully loaded.

I've driven nothing but a BMW as my daily driver for 30+ years. I got out of college and bought my first BMW and have never regretted moving from a Toyota.

I have owned 2 M cars and arguably one of those is the best M ever made. I had an E30 M3 for 12 years and drove the crap out of it.

So yeah all that stuff matters.
But once again, I don't dislike Tesla because I like BMW. I dislike Tesla because I dislike Tesla. I like plenty of other brands.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Try riding in the back seat of any recent B-Class AMG or M car if you think the Model 3P’s ride quality is lacking.

It doesn’t matter how many times you try to assert that Tesla’s cell/safety design is sub-par. It’s simply not true. We Tesla drivers appreciate the extra space on the road though!

Occupant safety is fine.

Battery safety? Sub par. Don't protect battery like others.
Fit and finish? Sub Par
Software Safety? Sub Par

[chadkoepf]

one of my favorite features of my model 3 was when I got the windows tinted and there was a bubble in the tint so the tint shop removed the tint to replace it and the entire defrost grid came off the rear window like a sticker. Then tesla made me replace the entire rear glass for $800 bucks.

or another great feature is that the a/c doesn't properly drain so every summer my car just blows mold all over me and my family. Then I take it to Tesla and they charge $160 for them to clean it. If you call and say, "my car smells like a dumpster" they know the problem and the solution. in fact in newer models they fixed the problem, but I still get to pay $160 a year to not have mold blow on my family. Can't imagine another car company charging me to NOT have my car stink, but that's just another wonderful experience.

Another great feature is that the paint is so bad that it literally flakes off. I took it to tesla and they considered it "normal wear and tear" so I just had to go to a local wrap shop and wrap my car in vinyl to stop the flaking off of the paint. The wrap shop told me that they offer a guarantee in 5 years when the wrap is removed that there will be no damage to the paint underneath, but the only manufacturer they can't offer that to is tesla because the paint is of such poor quality, that every time he's removed the vinyl paint comes with it. Thanks Elon for providing me with terrible paint!

Or how about the fact that it's a $60,000 car and it doesn't have sirius XM. WHO USES SIRIUS, JUST USE YOUR PHONE, I'd love to, but it also doesn't have carplay like my kids 20k hyundai does... The UI is garbage, stations disappear from my favorites, but hey it has NETFLIX to watch while I charge, so that's whats important right?

Oh and the newest feature is that every time I turn on a blinker or the car beeps at me because it thinks I'm departing a lane when I'm right in the middle, the subwoofer stops working for a few seconds. The guy came out to fix it and said it has to do with water in the audio amp, but there is no fix for it. WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE

so yeah, you can convince yourself that the tesla is perfect, and that you don't need basic features because you have the best car, but just wait until something goes wrong and you are forced to deal with tesla service. garbage car and a garbage company

[bavarianride]

I priced Model 3 insurance vs. my G20 330i, and the difference for my locales(packed with Tesla) is 30-40% extra to insure the Tesla.

I talked to insurance adjusters and (Tesla certified) body shop folks, and they said parts shortages, frequent glass break-ins, high labor hours per Tesla structures, etc, etc, contribute to high repair costs.

So Tesla now says they may provide Tesla-brand insurance(which is not cheapest), and Tesla factory repair(how scalable is that?!?)

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

one of my favorite features of my model 3 was when I got the windows tinted and there was a bubble in the tint so the tint shop removed the tint to replace it and the entire defrost grid came off the rear window like a sticker. Then tesla made me replace the entire rear glass for $800 bucks.

or another great feature is that the a/c doesn't properly drain so every summer my car just blows mold all over me and my family. Then I take it to Tesla and they charge $160 for them to clean it. If you call and say, "my car smells like a dumpster" they know the problem and the solution. in fact in newer models they fixed the problem, but I still get to pay $160 a year to not have mold blow on my family. Can't imagine another car company charging me to NOT have my car stink, but that's just another wonderful experience.

Another great feature is that the paint is so bad that it literally flakes off. I took it to tesla and they considered it "normal wear and tear" so I just had to go to a local wrap shop and wrap my car in vinyl to stop the flaking off of the paint. The wrap shop told me that they offer a guarantee in 5 years when the wrap is removed that there will be no damage to the paint underneath, but the only manufacturer they can't offer that to is tesla because the paint is of such poor quality, that every time he's removed the vinyl paint comes with it. Thanks Elon for providing me with terrible paint!

Or how about the fact that it's a $60,000 car and it doesn't have sirius XM. WHO USES SIRIUS, JUST USE YOUR PHONE, I'd love to, but it also doesn't have carplay like my kids 20k hyundai does... The UI is garbage, stations disappear from my favorites, but hey it has NETFLIX to watch while I charge, so that's whats important right?

Oh and the newest feature is that every time I turn on a blinker or the car beeps at me because it thinks I'm departing a lane when I'm right in the middle, the subwoofer stops working for a few seconds. The guy came out to fix it and said it has to do with water in the audio amp, but there is no fix for it. WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE

so yeah, you can convince yourself that the tesla is perfect, and that you don't need basic features because you have the best car, but just wait until something goes wrong and you are forced to deal with tesla service. garbage car and a garbage company

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Occupant safety is fine.

Battery safety? Sub par. Don't protect battery like others.
Fit and finish? Sub Par
Software Safety? Sub Par

Also Model 3 fans seldom talk about handling at corners. I have friends that went from BMW to Tesla, but are quite returning to BMW as they are not too happy with Tesla's handling, esp. at corners.

E.g. I seldom see any Tesla follow me around curves, in fact, most times they are 5-6 car lengths behind after the flyovers.

Also Model 3P is not that stable at high speed, u can feel the car wobble, esp. at rear seats. For sure AMG and M cars do not behave that way.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

one of my favorite features of my model 3 was when I got the windows tinted and there was a bubble in the tint so the tint shop removed the tint to replace it and the entire defrost grid came off the rear window like a sticker. Then tesla made me replace the entire rear glass for $800 bucks.

or another great feature is that the a/c doesn't properly drain so every summer my car just blows mold all over me and my family. Then I take it to Tesla and they charge $160 for them to clean it. If you call and say, "my car smells like a dumpster" they know the problem and the solution. in fact in newer models they fixed the problem, but I still get to pay $160 a year to not have mold blow on my family. Can't imagine another car company charging me to NOT have my car stink, but that's just another wonderful experience.

Another great feature is that the paint is so bad that it literally flakes off. I took it to tesla and they considered it "normal wear and tear" so I just had to go to a local wrap shop and wrap my car in vinyl to stop the flaking off of the paint. The wrap shop told me that they offer a guarantee in 5 years when the wrap is removed that there will be no damage to the paint underneath, but the only manufacturer they can't offer that to is tesla because the paint is of such poor quality, that every time he's removed the vinyl paint comes with it. Thanks Elon for providing me with terrible paint!

Or how about the fact that it's a $60,000 car and it doesn't have sirius XM. WHO USES SIRIUS, JUST USE YOUR PHONE, I'd love to, but it also doesn't have carplay like my kids 20k hyundai does... The UI is garbage, stations disappear from my favorites, but hey it has NETFLIX to watch while I charge, so that's whats important right?

Oh and the newest feature is that every time I turn on a blinker or the car beeps at me because it thinks I'm departing a lane when I'm right in the middle, the subwoofer stops working for a few seconds. The guy came out to fix it and said it has to do with water in the audio amp, but there is no fix for it. WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE

so yeah, you can convince yourself that the tesla is perfect, and that you don't need basic features because you have the best car, but just wait until something goes wrong and you are forced to deal with tesla service. garbage car and a garbage company

My nephew worked at Tesla and he said he'd never buy one.

He worked the assembly line, then a welder and finally in final quality where they put the white shipping film on the cars Said the cars suck.

You can literally wait months for a glass repair. They don't (or didn't) supply glass to SafeLite and others. You have to go back to them.

Now they have "certified" repair shops. Shops spent money training people only to have Tesla try to mine their employees.

There is so much wrong with the cars, software safety, supply chain and policies that I could never see myself buying one. I have Tesla solar and if the attention to detail of their line workers is exemplified by they way the install solar panels. Stay away.

During my panel install they they didn't measure where beams were on a "vaulted cathedral" ceiling and drilled right into my house. If I hadn't been home they would have ruined my house. The only reason they stopped was because I stopped them. They didn't even think to have someone inside to check.

Finally the TM3 is just fugly.

[ZCD1]

Never needed a single repair on my Tesla.

Can’t say the same for my German cars, even at the same mileage.

But yeah, Tesla sucks - that’s why the Model 3 murders all of its competitors in sales, safety, efficiency and performance, and why virtually every other EV maker has benchmarked it for their competitive vehicles going forward.

But don’t take my word for it:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/t...mparison-test/

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/merced...d-to-head#gref

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...cannot-do-this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...h=69df7d7145d1

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle...oor-sedan/2021

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Never needed a single repair on my Tesla.

Can’t say the same for my German cars, even at the same mileage.

But yeah, Tesla sucks - that’s why the Model 3 murders all of its competitors in sales, safety, efficiency and performance, and why virtually every other EV maker has benchmarked it for their competitive vehicles going forward.

But don’t take my word for it:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-330i-vs-genesis-g70-comparison-test/

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/mercedes-c-class-c300e-vs-tesla-model-3-standard-range-plus-vs-bmw-3-series-330e-head-to-head#gref

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306418-tesla-teardown-scares-competitors-we-cannot-do-this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/05/29/tesla-model-3-is-now-16th-bestselling-car-in-the-world/?sh=69df7d7145d1

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2021

You are.lucky you never had an issue.

But sales doesn't mean best.
Motor Trend compares a 330i loaded with options when any BMW purchaser knows it's a bad decision to load up a.lower model with option when the more expensive model is a cheaper choice because it will include the options from the lesser model.

That's not the argument though.
My BMWs over thirty years have been more reliable than the other ICE cars we buy. EV is inherently more reliable just because there are fewer moving parts to fail. No fuel pump. No complex internal combustion engine with fuels injection. No complex transmission. So when I take it with a grain of salt that Tesla is more reliable. Lets compare it to a Chevy Bolt or i3 for reliability numbers.

I'm glad you like your TM3.
For me it's just lacking the trappings of what I expect on a $60k vehicle.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Never needed a single repair on my Tesla.

Can’t say the same for my German cars, even at the same mileage.

But yeah, Tesla sucks - that’s why the Model 3 murders all of its competitors in sales, safety, efficiency and performance, and why virtually every other EV maker has benchmarked it for their competitive vehicles going forward.

Chasing the flashiest toys does not mean the toys are always good.

And stats are stats, it depends on which sides of the stats u fall on.

And as mentioned in other posts, most of EE/Physics friends are reserved about Tesla, but the CS/marketing/MBA/non-tech folks are ecstatic about Tesla, so it is what it is.

[ZCD1]

And here's some additional perspective:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...electric-cars/

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

And here's some additional perspective:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...electric-cars/

It may be true that EV will wipe out ICE, but it may not, time will tell.

The established brands as car companies are also catching up on SW and batteries to make EVs, while Tesla as a tech company is catching up on how to make cars.

Having said that, TSLA is the best product from Tesla so far.

And it is great that BMW gets beaten to a plum by Tesla, or else I wouldn't have got $7k off MSRP on a G20 330i, which ended up cheaper than a genuine Accord.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Never needed a single repair on my Tesla.

Can’t say the same for my German cars, even at the same mileage.

But yeah, Tesla sucks - that’s why the Model 3 murders all of its competitors in sales, safety, efficiency and performance, and why virtually every other EV maker has benchmarked it for their competitive vehicles going forward.

But don’t take my word for it:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/t...mparison-test/

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/merced...d-to-head#gref

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...cannot-do-this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...h=69df7d7145d1

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle...oor-sedan/2021

• Tesla motors and batteries are being benchmarked. The rest of the car is ignored as amateurish by many of us who actually work in the industry. I was told that Tesla came to one (nameless) company very late in development to ask for help on a basic component system known to the industry for decades which they had flubbed.
• Of course, Tesla is reviewed by all. It was first, so a chance to see what they did and how to improve. That happens everywhere and it's only a recognition of sequence, not quality. The OEM where I worked pre-early retirement had a teardown department that looked at just about everything on the road, some higher quality than what we made, some not. Munro and A2Mac1 do the same.
• If sales volume equals quality than one would consider McDs great food.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

• Tesla motors and batteries are being benchmarked. The rest of the car is ignored as amateurish by many of us who actually work in the industry. Tesla came to one (nameless) company very late in development to ask for help on a basic component system known to the industry for decades which they had flubbed.
• Of course, it is reviewed by all. It was first, so a chance to see what they did and how to improve. That happens everywhere and it's only a recognition of sequence, not quality. The OEM where I worked pre-early retirement had a teardown department that looked at just about everything on the road, some higher quality than what we made, some not. Munro and A2Mac1 do the same.
• If sales volume equals quality than one would consider McDs great food.

Here's an analogy:

McDonald's
Five Guys
The Counter

While McDonald's might arguably make a edible burger, lots of people eat there. It's no frills and you basically take it how they have it. Quality varies.

Five Guys is is better and give you options and you can have it your way, but at increased cost.

The Counter give you a much better experience in getting your way but at a.much higher cost and increased quality.

Now all sell a burger but it's hard.to debate that if you like mushrooms that McDonald's will give you the burger you want. Five Guys will at increased cost but quality is subjective. The Counter is at the top of the heap for quality and options.

So if McDonald's is Tesla, Five Guys is GM and the Counter is BMW then someone that wants leather on an EV might buy GM or BMW but they won't buy Tesla and that goes for many other deal breakers.

Tesla doesn't give me what I want beyond being an EV and I refuse to compromise. I've bought GM and I'll buy BMW.

On the same.token, I don't eat McDonald's because I can't get mushrooms, bacon, and some other things I like and the quality is well.... I'll eat Five Guys and The Counter.

[bavarianride]

And many Tesla owners are paying Counter price for McDonald's quality, and that is the brilliance of Tesla's halo effects.

Many in SVs are in similar business of selling hypes at steep premiums, and usually don not consume hypes themselves.

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Here's an analogy:

McDonald's
Five Guys
The Counter

While McDonald's might arguably make a edible burger, lots of people eat there. It's no frills and you basically take it how they have it. Quality varies.

Five Guys is is better and give you options and you can have it your way, but at increased cost.

The Counter give you a much better experience in getting your way but at a.much higher cost and increased quality.

Now all sell a burger but it's hard.to debate that if you like mushrooms that McDonald's will give you the burger you want. Five Guys will at increased cost but quality is subjective. The Counter is at the top of the heap for quality and options.

So if McDonald's is Tesla, Five Guys is GM and the Counter is BMW then someone that wants leather on an EV might buy GM or BMW but they won't buy Tesla and that goes for many other deal breakers.

Tesla doesn't give me what I want beyond being an EV and I refuse to compromise. I've bought GM and I'll buy BMW.

On the same.token, I don't eat McDonald's because I can't get mushrooms, bacon, and some other things I like and the quality is well.... I'll eat Five Guys and The Counter.

[chadkoepf]

I love this notion that because tesla is well reviewed its obviously superior. If you asked me after a week of ownership I would tell you tesla is the best car ever. I had no problems, no squeaks, it didn't smell like a moldy dumpster, the paint wasn't falling off. All I did for the first week was drive as fast as I could, throwing back passengers into their seats, silently, and everyone thought it was the best. Ask those reviewers to review after 3+ years of ownership, when things go wrong, and tesla doesn't care.... thats what matters.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

I love this notion that because tesla is well reviewed its obviously superior. If you asked me after a week of ownership I would tell you tesla is the best car ever. I had no problems, no squeaks, it didn't smell like a moldy dumpster, the paint wasn't falling off. All I did for the first week was drive as fast as I could, throwing back passengers into their seats, silently, and everyone thought it was the best. Ask those reviewers to review after 3+ years of ownership, when things go wrong, and tesla doesn't care.... thats what matters.

I guess the real rubber hits the road with long term reviews.

After a decade of ownership in each of my E30, E36 and E90, I still really liked the cars.

So much so that I got rid.of the E30 M3 when an engine rebuild started costing more than the car was worth (Before the price increases. I think it was the bottom of the market.)

My E36 replacement stuck around until I got rear-ended by a truck going about 30 mph and walked away with zero injuries.

The E90 was just totaled and before that I saw no reason to replace it with another ICE BMW. I didn't need more performance because tuned and prepped, I ran out of road before I ran out of car.

The reason I put my money down on the i4 M50 was solely because it was an electric replacement for my aging (now dead 335i). There was really no other car I wanted, except a new C8 and that just didn't make sense with two seats. I also like the M2 competition but now NLA.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I guess the real rubber hits the road with long term reviews.

After a decade of ownership in each of my E30, E36 and E90, I still really liked the cars.

So much so that I got rid.of the E30 M3 when an engine rebuild started costing more than the car was worth (Before the price increases. I think it was the bottom of the market.)

My E36 replacement stuck around until I got rear-ended by a truck going about 30 mph and walked away with zero injuries.

The E90 was just totaled and before that I saw no reason to replace it with another ICE BMW. I didn't need more performance because tuned and prepped, I ran out of road before I ran out of car.

The reason I put my money down on the i4 M50 was solely because it was an electric replacement for my aging (now dead 335i). There was really no other car I wanted, except a new C8 and that just didn't make sense with two seats. I also like the M2 competition but now NLA.

How many miles were in your E30/E36/E90? It looks like they all met with drastic ends. What happened to your E90?

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

How many miles were in your E30/E36/E90? It looks like they all met with drastic ends. What happened to your E90?

E30 had 300k miles no rebuild. I sold it still running really good. I was just looking at the high mileage and was worried. Clutch had almost 200k.

E36 M3 had about 250k if I remember correctly. I think original owner did a clutch. I never needed another.

E90 335i 245k, original turbos no rattles. Did go through 5 fuel pumps on BMW. They had a warehouse full of fuel pumps and no way to tell which one were crap. Also 3 sets of injectors. Fire damage totaled the car.

I've done over a million miles on BMWs and have never had an engine failure. my first BMW had almost 400k when I traded it in on the E30.