[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by TXSTYLE

Brilliant post. Much effort or did you just start typing?

I have several good friends that are cops. Two of which I work out with regularly and we discuss topics like this often. I can tell you this, Police are HUMAN and as such will and do react differently. And none of the guys I know would be cursing and shouting profanities at individuals like this guy did.
You never know if the individual/suspect is suffering from emotional issues dopped up to the point they can't comprehend commands. The screaming and profanity, I and others do not believe helped matters. Just like you want to say the cop has split second decisions to make, the individual may be afraid to move a finger for fear of being shot. Who knows...
We do know however, that the suspect now deceased was unarmed.

Just started typing. Common sense comes naturally to me.

True, you don't know whether the idiot is doped up to the point they can't comprehend commands BUT, then again, do you know that they aren't willfully disobeying as they are trying to go for a gun? What makes you the expert in that situation at THAT time. Because I know you're going to struggle with this, I mean, WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight when I say "at THAT time".

Also...did the cop dope him or put him in the situation he was in? No sir, it was the idiot's choice to get high...so, do stupid stuff, expect to reap the rewards.

And as for the bolded part...yes, I know you just can't help it, but this is again HINDSIGHT. Did the cop know at the time? I certainly hope not, and I don't know how he could? Do you know - if so, how?

The only thing I agree with in your post is that the cop shouldn't have been swearing, and it didn't help matters.

[Whostheboss]

And then this:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...51&pnref=story

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

Still... In this order, there's mace, batons, tasers, and perhaps a nonlethal shooting as a last resort (like I'll pill your hands so you can't shoot me). How does other developed nations deal with violent criminals, but still not manage to fire off shots? Germany only had 109 die at the hand of law enforcement since 1998, when there were perhaps thousands last year in the US alone. It's shit like that that had me thinking seriously about emigration last year.

Funny thing about that picture:

They may not have shot many bullets, but they sure do love to beat the shit out of people. In the years that I lived there, I saw the Polizei beat the daylights out of people with their big black sticks (lol) for not listening.

Their favorite seemed to be drunk drivers. If you refused to comply with a breathalyzer, chances are good you were going to get beaten down, taken to the station, and have blood forcibly drawn.

Alive still though...

[NEFARIOUS]

Originally Posted by Templar

Alive still though...

THAT being the key word.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

And as for the bolded part...yes, I know you just can't help it, but this is again HINDSIGHT. Did the cop know at the time? I certainly hope not, and I don't know how he could? Do you know - if so, how?

Agreed. We can't use information that became apparent after the fact to judge the officer's reaction before the fact. If he knew that the guy was unarmed then that is despicable but I sincerely doubt that he did.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

Still... In this order, there's mace, batons, tasers, and perhaps a nonlethal shooting as a last resort (like I'll pill your hands so you can't shoot me). How does other developed nations deal with violent criminals, but still not manage to fire off shots? Germany only had 109 die at the hand of law enforcement since 1998, when there were perhaps thousands last year in the US alone. It's shit like that that had me thinking seriously about emigration last year.

Batons, tasers, etc... how are you going to control a car of 4 when your taser is stuck in only 1 of the passengers? How are you going to control someone in a vehicle with a baton? What other fabulous nonlethal means are you referring to that would have worked in this situation?

Germany, really? Find a relevant comparison.

Does Germany have the population of the US? Does Germany have the drug problem the US has? Does Germany have the gang problem the US has? Does Germany have the same number of fucktards the US has?

The population of German is about 25% of the US population. According to the DOJ, in 1998 there were 358 people killed by the police in the US. So according to your data and the DOJ's data, German police kill more citizens per capita than the US police. In case you don't know what that means, if the US had the same population of Germany, in 1998 there would have only been about 89 citizens killed by the police in the US.

Follow your gut, don't think about it and just go. Tell us how much greener the grass actually is over there.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Agreed. We can't use information that became apparent after the fact to judge the officer's reaction before the fact. If he knew that the guy was unarmed then that is despicable but I sincerely doubt that he did.

You're not alone.

After seeing all the prosecution's evidence, which wasn't presented in this thread, a grand jury only needed 30 minutes of deliberation to decide against bringing charges against the officer.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

You're not alone.

After seeing all the prosecution's evidence, which wasn't presented in this thread, a grand jury only needed 30 minutes of deliberation to decide against bringing charges against the officer.

Can you post a link to this info?

[Mr Tonka]

See post #6 in this thread. Apparently not a grand jury, maybe it's called something different in Big Sky.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

THAT being the key word.

See Mr. Tonka's post above... They also don't have all the problems we have in this country...

[AW335TT]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Just started typing. Common sense comes naturally to me.

True, you don't know whether the idiot is doped up to the point they can't comprehend commands BUT, then again, do you know that they aren't willfully disobeying as they are trying to go for a gun? What makes you the expert in that situation at THAT time. Because I know you're going to struggle with this, I mean, WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight when I say "at THAT time".

Also...did the cop dope him or put him in the situation he was in? No sir, it was the idiot's choice to get high...so, do stupid stuff, expect to reap the rewards.

And as for the bolded part...yes, I know you just can't help it, but this is again HINDSIGHT. Did the cop know at the time? I certainly hope not, and I don't know how he could? Do you know - if so, how?

The only thing I agree with in your post is that the cop shouldn't have been swearing, and it didn't help matters.

You don't kill someone on a hunch. Only way the shooting would be justified is if the cop knew 100% he WAS armed and his life was in fact in danger. You don't take someone's life because you "didn't know". Only reason he got away was because he is a cop. If I shot someone because I thought he maybe could have possibly had a gun which was never pulled out or visible I would be in jail for murder no questions asked even if it happened inside of my own home.

If cops got thrown in jail everything something like this happen, I bet you next time they would think twice before pulling the trigger. Deadly force wouldn't be the first answer, but when they get a free pass at killing, they don't care anymore because nothing in their life changes and they probably joke about it later on.

I say that last part because cops shot and killed my neighbor after he pulled a gun out on them (I completely agree with that shooting). They left the body there from 2pm to midnight. There was at least 50-60 cops and hearing how they were talking about the whole thing and trying to take pictures of a dead guy on their phones to send it to people was disgusting. It was just another day for them, they don't give a fk.

[NEFARIOUS]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Batons, tasers, etc... how are you going to control a car of 4 when your taser is stuck in only 1 of the passengers? How are you going to control someone in a vehicle with a baton? What other fabulous nonlethal means are you referring to that would have worked in this situation?

Germany, really? Find a relevant comparison.

Does Germany have the population of the US? Does Germany have the drug problem the US has? Does Germany have the gang problem the US has? Does Germany have the same number of fucktards the US has?

The population of German is about 25% of the US population. According to the DOJ, in 1998 there were 358 people killed by the police in the US. So according to your data and the DOJ's data, German police kill more citizens per capita than the US police. In case you don't know what that means, if the US had the same population of Germany, in 1998 there would have only been about 89 citizens killed by the police in the US.

Follow your gut, don't think about it and just go. Tell us how much greener the grass actually is over there.

If one of them smoked meth, then they should be familiar with the concept of hotboxing (sarcasm)... So you can spray mace into the car and they'll most likely live. You can even shoot them in a nonlethal part, and they'll most likely live. I can see how a flinching coward of a cop might overreact and decide he's going to shoot, but at the same time... There's still other methods; killing unarmed civilians wasn't the sole option available. Granted, the shooting that in this thread might not be the best scenario, but how do you define someone that went back to their car to reach for their ID, or someone buying a BB gun that was not even being brandished from Walmart? Care to share with the rest of us how well thought-out and executed those ideas were?

I chose Germany because it's a commonly chosen example in other clusters of the internet, and it's more civilized than say... Pre-war Afghanistan.

However, yes all countries have their own fucktards, but only to varying extents. One irrefutable fact IS that we do have more prisoners per 100,000 people and only second to some tiny African country, meaning that yes, we do have more crime than most countries by that same anecdotal statistic. Also, 1998 or even 2008 doesn't even share the same statistics as we do now.

How so? I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source, only citing a handful major headline incidents; I'm willing to bet there's more unreported by the media. Even worse? There are official statistics of unprovoked shark bites and how many livestock are in a farm, and of course, how many LEOs got shot, but nothing on civilian deaths, and even the one database that exists only has 17% of precincts/jurisdictions reporting. How convenient. Anyway, you look at 2008, and most of them seem pretty reasonable. Return fire, suspect brandishing an actual weapon (not reaching for a cell phone or some BS answer), and the few that were deemed unreasonable resulted in the officer getting criminal charges, and perhaps just one acquittal. Even cases like Rodney King had 2 officers eventually tried by a Federal court and found guilty. Even anecdotally on a personal level, I haven't heard much cases of police brutality back then, and I used to be glued to the news.

Fast forward to today? On Wiki, there are about 86 killings (based off a rough count give or take 3) in December 2014 alone, 90-something in November, and already 12 since the year began. I can't find the source where I found 1,200 something deaths... Not to mention I don't follow the news anymore since CNN now = Constantly Negative News in my opinion, but every time I turn on FB or seeing headlines float by as I check the weather or in related news of another article I'm looking at, another guy is senselessly killed by the cops, and most cases are acquitted (including the one that still has Ferguson riots, looting, and even provoking a retaliatory killing of NYPD and Florida officers to this day), which is severe enough for the UN to step in.

Anyway, going back to Germany? People get trained for 2.5-3 years on every scenario imaginable before they're allowed to serve Der Polizei. 'Murica? Only 6-9 months in the academy, depending on state. Deutschland? Every bullet is accounted for with a state and federal investigation, and if the police officer is wronged, then he's guilty. 'Murica? The cop can be totally wrong and have evidence selectively withheld, yet still walk the streets.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

If one of them smoked meth, then they should be familiar with the concept of hotboxing (sarcasm)... So you can spray mace into the car and they'll most likely live. You can even shoot them in a nonlethal part, and they'll most likely live. I can see how a flinching coward of a cop might overreact and decide he's going to shoot, but at the same time... There's still other methods; killing unarmed civilians wasn't the sole option available. Granted, the shooting that in this thread might not be the best scenario, but how do you define someone that went back to their car to reach for their ID, or someone buying a BB gun that was not even being brandished from Walmart? Care to share with the rest of us how well thought-out and executed those ideas were?

I chose Germany because it's a commonly chosen example in other clusters of the internet, and it's more civilized than say... Pre-war Afghanistan.

However, yes all countries have their own fucktards, but only to varying extents. One irrefutable fact IS that we do have more prisoners per 100,000 people and only second to some tiny African country, meaning that yes, we do have more crime than most countries by that same anecdotal statistic. Also, 1998 or even 2008 doesn't even share the same statistics as we do now.

How so? I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source, only citing a handful major headline incidents; I'm willing to bet there's more unreported by the media. Even worse? There are official statistics of unprovoked shark bites and how many livestock are in a farm, and of course, how many LEOs got shot, but nothing on civilian deaths, and even the one database that exists only has 17% of precincts/jurisdictions reporting. How convenient. Anyway, you look at 2008, and most of them seem pretty reasonable. Return fire, suspect brandishing an actual weapon (not reaching for a cell phone or some BS answer), and the few that were deemed unreasonable resulted in the officer getting criminal charges, and perhaps just one acquittal. Even cases like Rodney King had 2 officers eventually tried by a Federal court and found guilty. Even anecdotally on a personal level, I haven't heard much cases of police brutality back then, and I used to be glued to the news.

Fast forward to today? On Wiki, there are about 86 killings (based off a rough count give or take 3) in December 2014 alone, 90-something in November, and already 12 since the year began. I can't find the source where I found 1,200 something deaths... Not to mention I don't follow the news anymore since CNN now = Constantly Negative News in my opinion, but every time I turn on FB or seeing headlines float by as I check the weather or in related news of another article I'm looking at, another guy is senselessly killed by the cops, and most cases are acquitted (including the one that still has Ferguson riots, looting, and even provoking a retaliatory killing of NYPD and Florida officers to this day), which is severe enough for the UN to step in.

Anyway, going back to Germany? People get trained for 2.5-3 years on every scenario imaginable before they're allowed to serve Der Polizei. 'Murica? Only 6-9 months in the academy, depending on state. Deutschland? Every bullet is accounted for with a state and federal investigation, and if the police officer is wronged, then he's guilty. 'Murica? The cop can be totally wrong and have evidence selectively withheld, yet still walk the streets.

You brought up 1998, i just went to the year you posted about. I know most people in this forum don't really care about comparing apples to apples when it comes to what makes them emotional but i figure if you're going to talk about stats from 1998, i'll oblige.

The fact that you use the term Mace and think that a cop or anyone facing a potential life threatening situation would shoot, or even could shoot with such precision to hit a"non-lethal part" while under duress makes it pretty clear you've never been anywhere near a situation where you've had to defend your life, your buddies life, or a loved ones life from a deadly threat. The cop that shot the kid at a Shell station when he swung around to get his ID either forgot his training or didn't have enough training, but one thing for sure was that he didn't maliciously shoot that kid. He legitimately was in fear of his life, albeit unjustifiably. He fired 6 shots from 10 feet and only hit the guy once, in the hip. Still think someone under duress can hit a non-lethal part?? Have no idea what other situation you're talking about.

Most of what you posted in the lengthily response above is opinion, conjuncture, and anecdotal. You even state that the stats you quote aren't reliable. But because you see it all over social media it must be happening now more than ever. It's not like these people who are involved in or victim of a police shooting were just sitting in the front church pew during the early morning service when police roll up and shot them. Most of the time they are out late at night, doing something suspicious, or breaking the law. And then, the most important part, fail to comply when the police are attempting to figure out if they are breaking the law or not. Read the comments (posted above) from the #blacklivesmatter protest leader after he was put though force on force training that Arizona police train for. Which btw, happens throughout the career of police officers in the US. It's not like their training ceases after the academy.

I will advocate more soft skills training for cops. They are exposed to so many violent situations that the majority of their training is focused on how to react to violent threats. I believe they need more training for the situations between everyday norman human interactions and OMG he's going to try and kill me. Most of these "questionable" shootings stem from a situation that started in that middle ground between normal and ultra violent. A simple but VERY expensive answer would be no solo cops, but that's not feasible for most municipalities.

You'r last boded statement is why i won't speak any further to your post. You don't know shit regarding that statement. You have no idea what evidence exists, is possibly withheld or submitted. This is your opinion, which you attempt to pass off as fact.

Facts are, the deaths per arrest is a VERY small ratio. Deaths per police interaction is an infinitesimally small number. And all you need to know this is common sense. Something that most unarmed police shooting victims seem to lack.

[NEFARIOUS]

For one, here's what you don't know about me. I actually used to work at a security guard training facility. I know, observe and report, they're not real cops, I get it.

"You brought up 1998, i just went to the year you posted about. I know most people in this forum don't really care about comparing apples to apples when it comes to what makes them emotional but i figure if you're going to talk about stats from 1998, i'll oblige."

YOU said YOURSELF "According to the DOJ, in 1998 there were 358 people killed by the police in the US." copy-and-paste. That's what I went off of MYSELF; in fact to be straight up, I found it kinda weird that you went 17 years back. But what's irrefutable is that from today to at least 4 months back, there has been more than 358 shootings that we know of.

Again, it's all subjective. I may not have received police or military training, but I'm not your average civvie either. If you must know some background, I was a firearms instructor at a security guard training facility, directly trained by a police sergeant... I only quit because the person I carpooled with got fired and I didn't have a car back then. I signed up for the Explorer Deputy program, but couldn't pass the hearing portion since I have mild hearing problems. Fast forward to last year; I was considered for and had an all-expenses-paid chance to get a job at the local shooting range (PROOF BELOW), but turned it down for a job that promised to pay more.

Anyway, I'm not saying a cop in the US should be disarmed 100%. Far from it. However, one thing I know for sure is that my training and what I was told to teach my student is that deadly force is a last resort; don't draw unless he draws or charges at you with a deadly weapon. What if the thief that broke into your house is unarmed, and you stealthed up to him and performed a textbook double-tap? Even though it may have SOME justification, but not enough for us civvies to get out of jail. If he was armed and has it pointed at you, then feel free to unload every single round you got on the asshole, fucker deserved it for breaking into your house and trying to kill you. On the other hand, what if that thump in the night was your son waking up to piss, would your reaction be just to shoot anything that moves and say that you feared for your life when a 9 year-old kid on the toilet is obviously not some crack-craving bum?

In that video you mentioned, the car thief scenario would've been 100% justified, guaranteed. The fistfight? Nope; the guy didn't have any visible weapons or attempts to reach for one. The search cooperation? Well... Did he SWING the knife or is it just on him and he's just squirming and his hands are far away? The protocol would've been to cuff him, calling for backup if necessary, THEN doing the search.

The only thing thing "conjuncture" is just the exact amount of people killed and again, NOBODY has an exact grip on how many cops have killed civilians last year or even the year before it. But what doesn't change is the fact that more cops seem to be getting away with these kinds of killings, and hardly anything is being done to curb this trend. Sure, the Federal government beefed up animal cruelty laws and smoking in your car with your kid inside is now child endangerment in CA, but is anything done for the cop that wildly assumed scratching the last crab off someone's dick is reaching for a gun and creamed the suffering bastard? I mean you may be right about blind coorelation about media/news coverage, but the only thing up for debate is... If this thing wasn't covered before, why is it so commonly shown in the media now? It's the same thing with cigs and the risks involved; not too long ago people were lighting up oblivious to the risks until studies were broadcast.

Oh and my last bolded statement? JUST TODAY I saw a video (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...351&permPage=1) where one guy gets pulled over and they framed the hell out of the poor bastard, and even his DA thought his scenario was bullshit at first. The cops were cleared of wrongdoings and the guy was hauled off. But then, the 2nd dashcam video surfaced, none of the scenarios were in the report, and now not only do the cops look like a schmuck, they are in hot water for falsifying the report and withholding evidence, which was enough to have the original guy's charges dismissed. Granted, they're indicted, but I'm sure the state probably has them out on bail or would give them a paid vacation (2 week suspension with pay) [/sarcasm].

[MrPrena]

1. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...d-montana-man/
Police or not, if someone is f'ing around inside their waistband, "purse" , or pocket, I ain't going to just sit there to verify it is airsoft or not.
Of course, as a citizen, I may have to verify it is a weapon before I defend myself.


2. Speaking of Germany. I've went to Germany for a business trip, and they carry H&K UMP at the airport.

3. Taser? Do you know taser has to be at least have a foot spread for it to work a little. Also, it may or may not work on some dudes who are extremely high. Meth? Taser may or may not have killed the subject.
Looks like from #1 video, they do carry Taser X26 model.

4. NEFARIOUS, I didn't know you were firearm(?) instructor for security licensing. I was aTasertrainer/instructor for a part time gig.
ETA: btw NEFARIOUS, are you the guy who shot real well on TV show TOP SHOT? One of the guy was from the same range as an instructor.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

And then this:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...51&pnref=story

Well one of the cops was white, one black.
Either they were just jealous of the victim, or the victim had given them attitude - both ways they abused their power and did wrong. The victim being black just gives them more cover to do whatever illegal thing they wanted to with their power.
So he probably wasn't abused BECAUSE he was black, but rather there was something else about him that they didn't like, and being black they figured they can get away with doing more to him.

I have had similar encounters with the law (although no where near the violence) in HK because I am young looking and don't have a 'professional' looking hair style or demeanor, so cops just assume you could be a Triad or a powerless kid, and give you more crap. But if you start speaking english to them etc. they get scared and find another victim.. sad but that's life.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

Lol some people in here are retarded "listen to cops and don't get shot" .. Really? Those are the two choices people have? Listen or die.. Cop shoots someone 3 times and than says stop moving lol fkn joke. He shot way to soon, he was pointing the gun at him already so even if the guy had a gun and tried pulling it out the officer would have shot first. He is suppose to be "trained" for situations like that but made a decision like a high school kid.

Yes, unfortunately. You don't have a choice.
Society has given cops these powers, only society can take them back.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

I say that last part because cops shot and killed my neighbor after he pulled a gun out on them (I completely agree with that shooting). They left the body there from 2pm to midnight. There was at least 50-60 cops and hearing how they were talking about the whole thing and trying to take pictures of a dead guy on their phones to send it to people was disgusting. It was just another day for them, they don't give a fk.

If they gave a fuck they couldn't/wouldn't be a cop.
I'm sure the he was a nice guy who had a good reason to be pulling a gun on cops.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

I can see how a flinching coward of a cop might overreact and decide he's going to shoot, but at the same time...

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Well one of the cops was white, one black.
Either they were just jealous of the victim, or the victim had given them attitude - both ways they abused their power and did wrong. The victim being black just gives them more cover to do whatever illegal thing they wanted to with their power.
So he probably wasn't abused BECAUSE he was black, but rather there was something else about him that they didn't like, and being black they figured they can get away with doing more to him.

I have had similar encounters with the law (although no where near the violence) in HK because I am young looking and don't have a 'professional' looking hair style or demeanor, so cops just assume you could be a Triad or a powerless kid, and give you more crap. But if you start speaking english to them etc. they get scared and find another victim.. sad but that's life.

Oh damn, that's crazy.

Police need to realize that their worst enemy is the Corrupted/Bad Police.

If a few people of a particular race does something negative, the world views that ENTIRE race as negative.
Same thing goes for Cops, 1 bad cop makes ALL cops look bad.

Yes, i know Cops are humans too and they are doing their job. But people on this forum need to STOP defending cops (Seriously stop sucking their dicks and drinking their coolaid).

"Just obey the law and do as they say" Yeak Ok. I just posted a video, so before anyone comments on my post please watch that video.

Herehttps://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...51&pnref=story

I only respect the good cops. I have two friends who are cops. Just last week i met this dude at the gym, turns out he was a cop. We spotted each other and had a great conversation.

So it's not like i wish death on all cops.

What i'm simple saying is, some of the stories these cops come up with are PURE BOGUS!

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

But people on this forum need to STOP defending cops (Seriously stop sucking their dicks and drinking their coolaid).

Or what?

See my post above...

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

You don't kill someone on a hunch. Only way the shooting would be justified is if the cop knew 100% he WAS armed and his life was in fact in danger. You don't take someone's life because you "didn't know". Only reason he got away was because he is a cop. If I shot someone because I thought he maybe could have possibly had a gun which was never pulled out or visible I would be in jail for murder no questions asked even if it happened inside of my own home.

If cops got thrown in jail everything something like this happen, I bet you next time they would think twice before pulling the trigger. Deadly force wouldn't be the first answer, but when they get a free pass at killing, they don't care anymore because nothing in their life changes and they probably joke about it later on.

I say that last part because cops shot and killed my neighbor after he pulled a gun out on them (I completely agree with that shooting). They left the body there from 2pm to midnight. There was at least 50-60 cops and hearing how they were talking about the whole thing and trying to take pictures of a dead guy on their phones to send it to people was disgusting. It was just another day for them, they don't give a fk.

An over whelming majoring of Cops are crazy people. Seriously why would a normal or sane human being apply to be a Cop. This quote came from my friend who has been in the department for almost 2yrs now.