[Bluehorseshoe]

Fantastic car, was exploring idea to buy i3 for my around town / winter car but found out that it's rear-wheel drive only and scrapped the idea. I can't believe that BMW didn't make this front-wheel drive (or all-wheel). What a shame. Car screams utilitarian. I see this as a logical front-wheel or x-drive vehicle. Come to think of it, BMW has never produced a FWD vehicle? Perhaps a future iteration will be x-drive. Add snow tires and a little weight in the rear, good to go.

[Barbera335]

New X1 is front wheel drive or all wheel drive and the 2 series active tourer is front wheel drive. So BMW does produce front wheel drive cars much to the chagrin of purists. I for one am glad the i3 is RWD.

[Bluehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by Barbera335

New X1 is front wheel drive or all wheel drive and the 2 series active tourer is front wheel drive. So BMW does produce front wheel drive cars much to the chagrin of purists. I for one am glad the i3 is RWD.

Wow. I had no idea BMW made a FWD vehicle. Very interesting.
Ideally, BMW continues to produce i3 as rear-wheel drive, and offers x-drive as an option for those of us residing in colder climates.

[ian_i3S_iX]

With the current battery technology a 4x4 i3 in a cold climate would have a range of next to nothing. The frictional losses of powering all 4 wheels and the power consumed in keeping the cabin and batteries warm would kill it.

Also with the skinny tyres the i3 has I would expect it to be not totally rubbish in snow or fit winter tyres - I was driven in a 330d BMW in Germany with winter tyres in 3 inches of snow and was amazed at its grip

[plymjack]

We have winter tyres on our i3 - Cost was only £600 as the tyres will be needed anyhow so it was a cheap way to get better wheels (for the summer!..lol)

Grip is much better with the winter tyres given the rain we have been having. Not had any snow yet but will let you know.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Bluehorseshoe

Fantastic car, was exploring idea to buy i3 for my around town / winter car but found out that it's rear-wheel drive only and scrapped the idea.

The above conclusion is based on an unsubstantiated assumption that FWD would somehow be better in winter driving (or any other) conditions. There is no basis for this statement.

I am using my i3 as a commuter/winter beater car.
Having previously used RWD, AWD, and FWD vehicles for that purpose, I have personally witnessed the limitations of all 3. Unless you are willing to pay the cost and weight penalties of AWD, I would always take a RWD car on snow tires in the winter above FWD on winter tires.

First of all, the closer to 50% / 50% front/rear axle weight distribution a car gets, the better all four corners grip under slippery conditions (easy with RWD, impossible with FWD). Secondly, going up the snow/ice covered hills, you need as much weight as you can get over the rear driven axle: the front wheels clear/compact the snow, and the weight transfer to the rear tires (front slope and acceleration) facilitates traction for the rear wheels. FWD car will just spin tiers and barely inch forward under the same conditions.
Been there done that.

AWD is better than either FWD or RWD, but usually only warranted if you regularly climb snow covered mountains in the winter. If you live in ski country, get AWD, otherwise, it's a waste.

Originally Posted by Bluehorseshoe

I can't believe that BMW didn't make this front-wheel drive (or all-wheel). What a shame. Car screams utilitarian. I see this as a logical front-wheel or x-drive vehicle.
Come to think of it, BMW has never produced a FWD vehicle?

I could not disagree more.

FWD sucks - it ruins the car balance by shifting all of the drivetrain and 60+% of weight onto the front axle, making the car an understeering pig under all driving conditions.

FWD was invented to cut manufacturing costs at the expense of vehicle handling. It's a production short cut for cheap-ass cars.

No car guy will ever wish for a FWD car.
You can learn to drive around its limitations, but there are for more pronounced and problematic in the winter, of all the seasons!

a

[Barbera335]

Originally Posted by afadeev

FWD was invented to cut manufacturing costs at the expense of vehicle handling. It's a production short cut for cheap-ass cars.

I agree with everything you are saying except this. The biggest reason for front wheel drive is to free up interior space. Because you eliminate the driveshaft tunnel and the front transmission hump you can have a flat floor or a floor that is very close to flat. This makes the center rear seat, especially, much more inhabitable. That being said, I much prefer RWD and agree it is superior in every aspect that really matters.

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by Bluehorseshoe

I can't believe that BMW didn't make this front-wheel drive (or all-wheel).

I'm in the opposite camp. How can you build the Ultimate Driving Machine and have it be FWD? I get the need for FWD/AWD in inclement weather, but RWD is more fun to drive.

[ORIGIN M.]

With the same battery pack, and 1 additional e-motor in the front, the current BMW i3 would have a longer range because of regenerative braking alone.

So, you are incorrect.

Originally Posted by ian_i3_rex

With the current battery technology a 4x4 i3 in a cold climate would have a range of next to nothing. The frictional losses of powering all 4 wheels and the power consumed in keeping the cabin and batteries warm would kill it. ...

[ian_i3S_iX]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

With the same battery pack, and 1 additional e-motor in the front, the current BMW i3 would have a longer range because of regenerative braking alone.

So, you are incorrect.

Possibly - regen braking is quite strong and I don't think it could be increased much. One place it would benefit is regen when lift off in corners you notice the braking backing off so must have a lateral G sensor.

We will have to wait for the i5 to see if they do it as this is likely to have around 300bhp

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by ian_i3_rex

Possibly - regen braking is quite strong and I don't think it could be increased much. One place it would benefit is regen when lift off in corners you notice the braking backing off so must have a lateral G sensor.

We will have to wait for the i5 to see if they do it as this is likely to have around 300bhp

Range will be increased easily by the addition of a 2nd e-motor !

[Bluehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by afadeev

The above conclusion is based on an unsubstantiated assumption that FWD would somehow be better in winter driving (or any other) conditions. There is no basis for this statement.

I am using my i3 as a commuter/winter beater car.
Having previously used RWD, AWD, and FWD vehicles for that purpose, I have personally witnessed the limitations of all 3. Unless you are willing to pay the cost and weight penalties of AWD, I would always take a RWD car on snow tires in the winter above FWD on winter tires.

First of all, the closer to 50% / 50% front/rear axle weight distribution a car gets, the better all four corners grip under slippery conditions (easy with RWD, impossible with FWD). Secondly, going up the snow/ice covered hills, you need as much weight as you can get over the rear driven axle: the front wheels clear/compact the snow, and the weight transfer to the rear tires (front slope and acceleration) facilitates traction for the rear wheels. FWD car will just spin tiers and barely inch forward under the same conditions.
Been there done that.

AWD is better than either FWD or RWD, but usually only warranted if you regularly climb snow covered mountains in the winter. If you live in ski country, get AWD, otherwise, it's a waste.

I could not disagree more.

FWD sucks - it ruins the car balance by shifting all of the drivetrain and 60+% of weight onto the front axle, making the car an understeering pig under all driving conditions.

FWD was invented to cut manufacturing costs at the expense of vehicle handling. It's a production short cut for cheap-ass cars.

No car guy will ever wish for a FWD car.
You can learn to drive around its limitations, but there are for more pronounced and problematic in the winter, of all the seasons!

a

Very interesting take. I guess that I've always assumed or have been conditioned to believe that a FWD car is superior to RWD in the snow. I hate FWD cars as I don't like the torque steer and driving dynamics, just believed that they were more functional.
We have a Volvo wagon with FWD and it goes almost everywhere in the snow without a problem, just with great all-season tires. With snow tires it is almost unstoppable in the snow. (And I know that I should run snow tires in the colder weather but I'm usually just too lazy to change them each and every year.)

[ORIGIN M.]

The i3 has fantastic dynamics because of the rear wheel drive.

Having xDrive w/two e-motors front and rear will make the car wunderbar.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Barbera335

I agree with everything you are saying except this. The biggest reason for front wheel drive is to free up interior space. Because you eliminate the driveshaft tunnel and the front transmission hump you can have a flat floor or a floor that is very close to flat. This makes the center rear seat, especially, much more inhabitable. That being said, I much prefer RWD and agree it is superior in every aspect that really matters.

I agree that the FWD layout buys you more interior space, just as you describe. However, interior layout benefits were a nice side-effect, not the motivation for FWD.

FWD is both cheaper (no center/rear draveshafts, no read diff), and quicker (fewer assembly points for the entire power-train) to manufacture. Quicker assembly also contributes to the lower cost.

Also, since rear wheels are subjected to no acceleration loads, the rear sub-frame can be lighter and less robust in FWD cars. Lower importance of the rear tire traction also invites using simpler/cheaper MacPherson struts in the back (vs. multi-link suspension), which also frees up more space for the trunk.

All-in-all, FWD is a good pairing to smaller, space-contained cars where handling and performance can be happily traded off for cost and extra space.

Originally Posted by Bluehorseshoe

I hate FWD cars as I don't like the torque steer and driving dynamics, just believed that they were more functional.

Having said all that, a relatively recent survey of BMW owners asked them how they liked their RWD cars. Something like 40% of respondents replied that they thought the bimmers were FWD.

I suspect closer to 2x that 40% would never pay $50 extra for RWD performance potential, because they never get anywhere close to performance limits of modern cars. FWD, or RWD.

a

[ian_i3S_iX]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

The i3 has fantastic dynamics because of the rear wheel drive.

Having xDrive w/two e-motors front and rear will make the car wunderbar.

And about 20% more to buy

On the subject of 2 wheel vs. 4 wheel drive have you ever seen an AWD car give better mpg than a RWD BMW 320i RWD 45.6 mpg AWD 42.6 mpg

If the i3 or its replacement was ever given 4 wheel drive it would indeed be great, where I live in the past 10 years I have only been stranded once and the road out of my street has a 15% incline.

[ORIGIN M.]

Having 2 e-motors vs 1 e-motor, will give longer range because of regenerative braking alone. You can not compare a gas 4 wheel drive ICE [internal combustion engine] car, to an Electric car. The Electric car can increase range by simply adding more e-motors thus creating electricity/battery power by regenerative braking. As we see more e-motors added to the picture, batteries aside, we will see more range as a given. In 5 years will be be lightyears ahead from where we are now.

Originally Posted by ian_i3_rex

And about 20% more to buy

On the subject of 2 wheel vs. 4 wheel drive have you ever seen an AWD car give better mpg than a RWD BMW 320i RWD 45.6 mpg AWD 42.6 mpg

If the i3 or its replacement was ever given 4 wheel drive it would indeed be great, where I live in the past 10 years I have only been stranded once and the road out of my street has a 15% incline.

[jmatero]

It's designed primarily as a city car and RWD has advantages for maneuverability. Thin front wheels and no drivetrain make for a super-tight turning radius.

[Rennsport3.2]

RWD with snow tires > FWD/AWD

The one good thing I can say about living in the snow belt is that seeing people's comments regarding the above on social media this time of year really helps me separate the people who drive their cars from people who merely operate them.

[RocketJohn]

The pizza cutter wheels with best in class snow tires should be great. My wife has a Smart Car setup this way and has had zero issues in Denver, CO since 2008. I am monitoring this forum, as I think the i3 would be a great next car for her.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

With the same battery pack, and 1 additional e-motor in the front, the current BMW i3 would have a longer range because of regenerative braking alone.

So, you are incorrect.

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Range will be increased easily by the addition of a 2nd e-motor !

This is not necessarily true. By that thinking, the range on the Tesla dual cars would have increased significantly by the addition of the second motor. That didn't happen.

So yes, you would be able to generate more regen with two motors, but there are limitations of how fast you can put that back into the batteries, etc., that dictate how much of it you can actually use. I would also be curious to see of those manufacturers with a front motor that use regen, how many of them use the front motor at all for regen? The dynamics of braking the front wheels is much different, and much touchier, than braking at the rear.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

This is not necessarily true. By that thinking, the range on the Tesla dual cars would have increased significantly by the addition of the second motor. That didn't happen.

So yes, you would be able to generate more regen with two motors, but there are limitations of how fast you can put that back into the batteries, etc., that dictate how much of it you can actually use. I would also be curious to see of those manufacturers with a front motor that use regen, how many of them use the front motor at all for regen? The dynamics of braking the front wheels is much different, and much touchier, than braking at the rear.

It Is true...

The Tesla D has a longer range due to that fact alone.

Not extreme, but it does add range regardless.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Rennsport3.2

RWD with snow tires > FWD/AWD

On slick roads: AWD > RWD > FWD.
On icy/snow roads with winter tires: AWD > RWD > FWD.

BTDT with all 3 types of vehicles.
In all conditions.

Originally Posted by Rennsport3.2

The one good thing I can say about living in the snow belt is that seeing people's comments regarding the above on social media this time of year really helps me separate the people who drive their cars from people who merely operate them.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by RocketJohn

The pizza cutter wheels with best in class snow tires should be great. My wife has a Smart Car setup this way and has had zero issues in Denver, CO since 2008. I am monitoring this forum, as I think the i3 would be a great next car for her.

So far, i3 has been great in the snow.
The battery range takes ~25% hit once temps dip below freezing, but the narrow tires cut through slush and snow exceptionally well.

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Range will be increased easily by the addition of a 2nd e-motor !
[...]Having 2 e-motors vs 1 e-motor, will give longer range because of regenerative braking alone.

The above conclusion is drawn from the assumption that the second pair of electric motors would double regenerative capacity.
The reality is significantly more complicated.
Having a 2nd electric motor does not mean that it is utilized for increased magnetic breaking, as demonstrated by Tesla's AWD 70D utilizing identical maximum level of magnetic braking relative to RWD S60:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/10/a-...sus-tesla-70d/


a