[venom21]

Major news to say the least. Ford is switching to the Tesla connector from CCS in 2025 and will provide an adapter for existing vehicles. Will this force BMW's hand? Will it tank the values of CCS cars in the future? Will we someday get our own adapter to access a better charging network? I can see other automakers scambling to make a deal now that the first major domino has fallen. Lots at play for the future.

https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/ford-...rprising-move/

[Pictor]

Adding, not switching. Big difference.

Mustang Mach-E, F-150 Lightning and E-Transit customers will be able to access the Superchargers via an adapter and software integration along with activation and payment via FordPass or Ford Pro Intelligence

The addition of the NACS connector from 2025 will be interesting in how it's implemented.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...hargers--.html

[venom21]

It would be incredibly expensive for Ford to stick two ports on their cars from 2025. They are going to use the NACS connector and probably sell a CCS to NACS adapter like Tesla does currently for their cars to charge on other networks. Would be a much more cost-effective approach.

[Paladin1]

So an adapter + software (presumably through Ford's app) until 2025, which is essentially the same as an adapter attached to the Supercharger for CCS plugs right now, minus the software requirement. Which makes four standards (maybe more) in the US now if you pull up to a random fast charger. Maybe the Feds really do need to mandate a standard and stop the Wild West.

[Pictor]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

... Maybe the Feds really do need to mandate a standard and stop the Wild West.

From NEVI:

Connector Types

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC port must have a Combined Charging System (CCS) Type 1 connectors. This final rule also allows DCFC charging ports to have other non-proprietary connectors so long as each DCFC charging port is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...uirements#h-19

[JonoNZ]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world (except China) we're using CCS2, which works well, and is well and truly locked in....

This is about accessing the Supercharger network, which by all accounts is way more reliable in the US than others, it's far less about the connector. It's really a US-only issue, in Europe the CCS2 network is great and in countries like NZ it's very limited and Tesla vehicles (which are CCS2) rely mostly on the CCS2 network that everyone uses.

[Pictor]

The connector is not that determines reliability. In fact, using the magic dock will limit charging speeds. For many high voltage cars because Tesla SC's (in the US at least) are limited to 500v. The next generation SC's will address that. However, the v3 SC's with the magic doc are also amperage limited when using the magic doc.

More on reliability, this is more of an issue of site design and detection and response of failed components. Using EA (or EVGo) as an example, there are dispensers in my area that have been broken for weeks and months. EA even has some of the dispensers marked as "unavailable" for several weeks. There are three reasons for the broken dispensers:

1. The CPO (EA/EVGo) is unaware the hardware is broken.
2. The CPO is aware but the turn around time to roll a truck is very long.
3. The CPO doesn't care or isn't motivated to fix the site.

The only penalty that I'm aware of right now for EA to not fix a site is that there isn't much monetary incentive. Most cars rolling up to these dispensers are using their "free" charging. In some cases they clearly know the site is broken as indicated by their app. The sites not showing as "unavailable" in the app could fall into #1 or #2 but a good portion of what I see is either #2 or #3.

Supporting large scale cloud infrastructure and networks is what I do. There are lots of parallels to this industry in terms of site availability and from what I've seen from US charge point operators, I'm not impressed and these guys have quite a bit to learn - if they give a $hi7. I suspect some of the EU member countries have more regulation in this space that incentives higher availability.

The reality of any piece of hardware is that it will fail. The only question is how and when. Then a decision needs to be made of how do you handle the failure. That can range from rapid response to letting it die on the vine.

[Space gray]

Originally Posted by Pictor

The only penalty that I'm aware of right now for EA to not fix a site is that there isn't much monetary incentive. Most cars rolling up to these dispensers are using their "free" charging. In some cases they clearly know the site is broken as indicated by their app. The sites not showing as "unavailable" in the app could fall into #1 or #2 but a good portion of what I see is either #2 or #3.

While I don't know about the general state of affairs for EA, from what I observe, EA is spending money to upgrade some of the facilities like the 9 of the 10 chargers were upgraded from 150 to 350 kW at the Livermore outlets, likewise 3 of 4 at the Walmart in Pleasanton, and the Safeway in Pleasanton went offline for an apparent upgrade as well. This all happened within the last few months. In San Francisco, they've built a location with 26(?) chargers but it hasn't gone online yet. Yes, there is obviously a larger population of cars needing charging but still 9 of 10 times I find an available working charger without wait, whereas before when I got the car in July 2022 it was 10/10 (except on a drive to LA on I-5). I rarely charge at home so I charge mostly at EA and find that they're mostly OK for me.
As an aside, I've seen other non-Tesla networks and very few of them have chargers capable of 150, let alone 350 kW (balanced). Even a newly built EVGo near my house put 3 chargers rated at 50kW.

[grueber]

Ford is 2-4 years too late making this move. Tesla is already rolling out the magic dock for CCS EVs. If Tesla continues to add magic dock chargers to their network it won’t matter.

Unless 2-3 major EV makers join Ford (they won’t) CCS has already won the charging port war. Too bad as I find the CCS charger clunky compared to the Tesla one.

What would be nice is for all the EV makers to standardize the location of the port.

[Pictor]

I see this move as a win for Tesla as a disruptor and a blow to EA more than a sign of things to come.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I see this move as a win for Tesla as a disruptor and a blow to EA more than a sign of things to come.

I see it as a win for the Ford owners who would get the adapter and be able to use both Tesla and CCS chargers as they please.

As for the magic dock making this a bit pointless, it still looks to me like Tesla could relatively easily put those in just about everywhere, but they aren't actually doing it. I still think they did the bare minimum just to be able to get gov subsidies (which they wouldn't qualify for if they only worked with their own cars) and do not want to actually open up all their locations to CCS cars and lose their competitive advantage. They have done similar in the past.... Cough.... Cough..... Battery swap.... Cough ..... Cough.....

[ixDriver]

Given the joke that is EA/CCS generally, especially in the Northeast.. I'd happily buy one of these adapters, or pay for a retrofit.

In my highway routes from Northern MD to coastal CT & Long Island, CCS network in 2023 is still not on par where Tesla was in 2017. And Tesla has been expanding a lot in those 6 years, so it's not even close.

It's my one annoyance with the iX, but honestly I don't road trip enough for it to matter. I've only had to CCS DCFC 2 times in my 11 months of ownership.

[Pictor]

The issue is definitely EA (and EVGo, ChargePoint) and others. There is nothing inherently wrong with CCS other than perhaps the latch in CCS1 and the less than ideal industrial design. NACS is not a fix for any of the problems plaguing EA and EVGo. EVGo has NACs plugs in my area along with 350kW chargers but they suck too.

I'm just waiting for people to be upset if they roll up to a NACS dispenser using their adapter and not knowing the difference between v2 and v3 SuperCharger and getting rate limited because they're sharing with another car while paying a premium for the electricity. Or potentially rolling up to a v3 SC and getting rate limited to 350amps (I say potentially because we don't know how this will work and magic dock is currently limited to 350amp). Keep in mind that the iX will ask for 500amp if the dispenser can provide it. At least there will be more options in the charger deserts that exist but the experience may not live up to expectations. Charging an F-150 Lightning to 100% at a SC with a potential 350 amp limit will be the equivalent of watching paint dry.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by ixDriver

Given the joke that is EA/CCS generally, especially in the Northeast.. I'd happily buy one of these adapters, or pay for a retrofit.

100% agree.

I'll bet people on the fence about getting a Ford due to the subpar charging network of non Tesla's will now not hesitate to get one. Just the promise of an adaptor and future software updates to support it will attract customers.

What could BMW do to blunt this strategic advantage? They could make a similar commitment to BMW customers!

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by Pictor

I'm just waiting for people to be upset if they roll up to a NACS dispenser using their adapter and not knowing the difference between v2 and v3 SuperCharger and getting rate limited because they're sharing with another car while paying a premium for the electricity. Or potentially rolling up to a v3 SC and getting rate limited to 350amps (I say potentially because we don't know how this will work and magic dock is currently limited to 350amp). Keep in mind that the iX will ask for 500amp if the dispenser can provide it. At least there will be more options in the charger deserts that exist but the experience may not live up to expectations. Charging an F-150 Lightning to 100% at a SC with a potential 350 amp limit will be the equivalent of watching paint dry.

These concerns are too esoteric. Having access to the Supercharger network means the range anxiety - the possibility of being stranded somewhere and needing a tow, is greatly reduced.

If I'm on an ICE road trip, and running on fumes, I'm also not concerned that the local rural station is charging extortionate amounts for a gallon of gas. I'll go fill up enough to reach an area where there will be a cluster of competitive stations. Nobody is going to care about having to pay 10c more per kWh to charge at a Supercharger.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by grueber

Ford is 2-4 years too late making this move. Tesla is already rolling out the magic dock for CCS EVs. If Tesla continues to add magic dock chargers to their network it won’t matter.

Ford is only too late if other major manufacturers announce a similar commitment in the near future. For as long as it is the sole major manufacturer to commit to a NACS adaptor and port, Ford EVs will have a competitive advantage as range anxiety will no longer be a reason not to consider a Ford EV (admittedly, there may be dozens of *other* reasons to still not consider a Ford).

I predict we're going to start seeing more commitments to switch to NACS in clusters. GM has to commit. Likewise, once a Japanese, or Korean, or a German manufacturer makes a similar announcement, the others from that country will have to do so as well.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by venom21

It would be incredibly expensive for Ford to stick two ports on their cars from 2025.... Would be a much more cost-effective approach.

Actually, many foreign EVs sold in China has dual ports - CCS + GB/T.
Mach-E China version also has 2 charging ports, and the Mach-E base model is priced at US$29,720 (¥209,900.00) in China.

[JonoNZ]

I'm an outsider looking in on this situation. I'm based in NZ, we standardised on CCS2 like the rest go world (except China), so Tesla vehicles and superchargers here all have CCS2. The Tesla Supercharger network in NZ is locked to Tesla only for now. So none of this affects me other than my desire to see increased EV adoption worldwide.

I initially thought it was adding a NACS connector, but from what I heard and read since it sounds like a switch: so dumping CCS1 from 2025.

I've been thinking about this and my overview feeling is that adopting the NACS connector is a bad day for EV adoption in North America. Here's my thinking:

1) Benefiting from the Supercharger network could have been easily done without adopting the NACS connector. That was already happening with MagicDock, and Ford is going to provide an adaptor in the interim anyway. So the charging options could have been expanded without turning the entire US EV industry upside down.
2) Massive uncertainty. There is already enough of that with getting ICE -> EV adoption, things like battery tech, battery life, range anxiety, etc now we can add the industry is going to change connectors again. This could put people off purchasing, delaying purchases, waiting until 2025 or later.
3) Tesla Superchargers (V2 and V3, there are no V4 in the US yet) cannot charge 800V vehicles properly and rely on the having optional equipment to charge at high rates. So carmakers like Porsche, Hyundai/Kia, Lotus, Lucid, and even GM with their 800V models simply can't switch. I can't see Rawlinson talking to Musk about getting Lucid on board.
4) This is a strong case for standardisation and regulation. CCS1 is the only valid option for NEVI funding, so that part is right, but letting the market flip and flop around these standards is going to be very messy. The upshot is US could end up having a situation going forward where there is the odd CCS1 connector on EV infrastructure, just like Chademo. There is no doubt EA need to improve, and fast, but this is not the way to solve that particular problem. This is very important infrastructure, Tesla should be forced to actually make it a standard, open it up, hand control over to a fully independent body. That is not what they have done to date.
6) What happens to EV infrastructure providers now? Home EV charging solutions? What would you recommend people buy? Up until very recently it was not possible to make a Tesla home charger, it was a closed standard.
7) Jim Farley (CEO Ford) is quite a talented executive, and pushed Ford into EVs faster they would have otherwise, but I can't help but think he's been played big time here. Musk has being sprinkling complements about the Ford EV strategy over the last few months, grooming him if you like, and then he's managed to secure a huge win for Tesla: He opens the network to Ford, but that is not the prize he really wanted. He wanted a major automaker to switch connector, destabilising the entire non-Tesla EV market in the US. For many, this will all seem even harder than it is now and they go with the safe choice: a Tesla.

Am I off base? Interested in your thoughts?

[Pictor]

JonoNZ , you've hit the nail on the head. The only thing I will add is that the public CCS HPC/DCFC network providers in the US are, and I'm trying to be nice, complete and utter shite. As mentioned above, either they're clueless or just simply don't care and I'm not sure which is worse. Given EA's attempt at placating the public by helping to remove confusion about charger speed I think it's just a lack of clue (I am not kidding with this https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/195). People want chargers that work and they focus on branding to differentiate 150kW Ultra Fast vs 350kW Hyper Fast as if that was ever a problem when you cannot even get >100kW from either reliably.

The SC network is more reliable and have a wider distribution but it has it's own problems as you've called out. Thankfully for Ford, they don't have 800v cars to deal with but they do have a few thirsty cars. These may be esoteric problems but the user experience will not be great although doubling+ the number of available DCFC's almost overnight is a win for drivers.

[grueber]

Originally Posted by FultonMDUSA

Ford is only too late if other major manufacturers announce a similar commitment in the near future. For as long as it is the sole major manufacturer to commit to a NACS adaptor and port, Ford EVs will have a competitive advantage as range anxiety will no longer be a reason not to consider a Ford EV (admittedly, there may be dozens of *other* reasons to still not consider a Ford).

I predict we're going to start seeing more commitments to switch to NACS in clusters. GM has to commit. Likewise, once a Japanese, or Korean, or a German manufacturer makes a similar announcement, the others from that country will have to do so as well.

It took the Ford CEO a long road trip to figure out the non-Tesla charging infrastructure is mediocre? That is either horrible planning or hyperbole since Ford placed a multi-billion dollar investment on EVs years ago.

GM is supposedly dropping Carplay and Android Auto in future EVs. Parsing their doublespeak it's because they are afraid of Apple and Google controlling the user experience in their cars. I doubt they will adapt Tesla's port for the same reasons.

[Paladin1]

Agree with JonoNZ . Any EV - right now - could charge on Tesla's network with an adapter and software, if Tesla made it so. There's nothing special about slapping an NACS port on an existing car - it's just a way to get electrons into the tank. What this will do is delay the much-needed overhaul of the public charging network as it exists, put pause on consumers and automakers, and muddy the EV transition for many consumers for possibly years. And I suspect when 2025 rolls around - if Ford still exists and still makes EVs and if they have the same CEO - they may even say "Whoops - just kidding!" Or maybe there will be another, faster, better standard. This approach doesn't help anyone except Elon Musk. Maybe.

[FultonMDUSA]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

There's nothing special about slapping an NACS port on an existing car - it's just a way to get electrons into the tank.

I used to think so too. So what if the CCS charger is a bit larger and heavier?

I've changed my mind. Anyone, even a small teen, can lift a Supercharger NACS plug/cable with one hand, press the button on the handle to open the car's charging port door, and plug it in with minimal force required. Charging begins. No app required.

I'm sure everyone in the U.S. on this board is now familiar with the EA CCS process. You'll need your phone, but first leave it in your car. Since it's also your key, hopefully you don't get locked out of your vehicle. I've placed it on the ground at times. Now open your charging port door. Actually, you have 3 separate doors to manually open to expose the full CCS connector. Now go to the EA charger. Lift up the CCS plug/cable. Even if you're a hefty person, you'll need both hands, if not to bring the cable to your vehicle, definitely to insert it into the port. The angle's not natural. You'll have to lift it up, and force it in at the right angle with both hands, until you eventually get a click.

Now get your phone. Open the app. Hope it hasn't logged you out again so you have to remember your app credentials. Find the site you're at. Look at the charging stand, and try to find the tiny number. Scroll to that entry. Hope and pray the app says it is available, because sometimes it says it is not. In that case, go put your phone away, unplug the CCS plug, go get your phone again, and hope it updates so it is available so you can try plugging it in again. Always a shit show because that plug and cable are so heavy you have to use both hands. Finally, if all the stars are aligned, tap and swipe, and your vehicle *may* start charging.

I'll bet the automaker CEOs have *never* done this. At best, they have stood around and watched while their assistants did it for them.