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      03-28-2016, 10:39 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
this has been written and spoken about in said "communities" for decades including today:

"Black men are sent to prison on drug charges at thirteen times the rate of white men, even though five times as many whites as blacks use illegal drugs. The mass incarceration of black and Latino men happened in the United States as the economy shifted from a manufacturing to a service base, and as inequality increased dramatically. Mass incarceration has been used as a solution to the economic crisis: prisons serve the dual purpose of providing employment to tens of thousands of prison workers and locking away a good proportion of the surplus labor force. The War on Drugs has been an excuse for mass incarceration, not a solution to the social problems associated with the illegalization of drugs."
- Counterpunch.org (12/2014)

Cities once known to have a strong presence of manufacturing: Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, Baltimore, Cincinnati, etc. over the decades have increasingly become riddled with crime primarily due to a lack of jobs, failed/ing educational systems, etc.

These so-called WARS whether DRUGS OR CRIME gave way to the Prison Industrial Complex. BTW, ever ask yourself who/what is the target(s) of these wars? The enemy? Winners/losers? Cost? Post-war plan(s)/progress? Rebuild/not? Rehabilitate/not?

Prison Industrial Complex: Special interests have and are shaping this nation's criminal justice policy beyond the point of morality and you guessed it - CORRUPTION. Big money has and will continue to be the driving motive where these special interests influence elected officials (i.e., liberals & conservatives) to get "tougher" on crime who in turn use the fear of crime to gain votes. One of the most egregious examples of this is nonviolent offenses; where in other countries these crimes lead to community service, fines, or drug treatment programs. Speaking of the latter - isn't it interesting that local/national politicians are all of a sudden interested in "treating" drug addiction (e.g., heroin) because there's a growing problem in suburban/rural 'Murica. Hmmm - where were these programs when heroin and crack cocaine were destroying urban America? Difference being race, class?

The sad truth - lives, families, and generations have been destroyed due to these so-called "wars". That's not minimizing "personal responsibility"; just says this nation helps who it wants/when it wants and hurts the same. Whether you believe the government is capable of systematically destroying a community is irrelevant - - - - - just think about the outcome. Shit just ain't that organic.
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      03-29-2016, 08:25 AM   #112
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Let's look at this phrase
"Black men are sent to prison on drug charges at thirteen times the rate of white men, even though five times as many whites as blacks use illegal drugs."
It says:
Black men make up 6.6% of the population.
Whites 77% of the population.
So there are almost 13 times the number of whites in the US.
And if whites use drugs 5 times more than blacks, this means a black man is 2 1/2 times more likely to use drugs than a white.

They use white male in one part of the quote, but whites on another changing the definition to all white people, not just males.

To use round numbers:
If 2% of the population is black men using drugs, then 10% of the population is whites using drugs.
That means 12.5% of whites use drugs. 30% of black males use drugs.

Now remove the pot from the equation. Pot generally doesn't send you to jail. Hard drugs do. Pot is much more widely used in the white population than hard drugs percentage wise vs. The black community. If you only look at hard drigs, the percentage of convictions evens out.

Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests.

Typical twisting of facts. They only look at black males, but they include white females to skew the numbers. They also dont look at the kind of drugs they are including. In the end, the number of blacks and whites going to prison for drugs is an equal number.

This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say. It doesn't show racial bias at all.
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      03-29-2016, 12:00 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1
Let's look at this phrase
"Black men are sent to prison on drug charges at thirteen times the rate of white men, even though five times as many whites as blacks use illegal drugs."
It says:
Black men make up 6.6% of the population.
Whites 77% of the population.
So there are almost 13 times the number of whites in the US.
And if whites use drugs 5 times more than blacks, this means a black man is 2 1/2 times more likely to use drugs than a white.

They use white male in one part of the quote, but whites on another changing the definition to all white people, not just males.

To use round numbers:
If 2% of the population is black men using drugs, then 10% of the population is whites using drugs.
That means 12.5% of whites use drugs. 30% of black males use drugs.

Now remove the pot from the equation. Pot generally doesn't send you to jail. Hard drugs do. Pot is much more widely used in the white population than hard drugs percentage wise vs. The black community. If you only look at hard drigs, the percentage of convictions evens out.

Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests.

Typical twisting of facts. They only look at black males, but they include white females to skew the numbers. They also dont look at the kind of drugs they are including. In the end, the number of blacks and whites going to prison for drugs is an equal number.

This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say. It doesn't show racial bias at all.
+1.

In addition, when crack first appeared, it was 1/10th the price of cocaine, and delivered a much more powerful high. Drug abuse advocates at the time feared it would devastate poor urban neighborhoods- and they were right. For that reason, crack crimes were more heavily penalized.
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      03-29-2016, 01:59 PM   #114
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Another way to look at the skewed numbers and the way they're implied 8s that the police are failing the white community and letting drugs spread throughout it devastating suburbs and they're only protecting the blighted urban areas which cimparitively now are safer and drug free. See how silly this is now?
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      03-30-2016, 11:28 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Let's look at this phrase
"Black men are sent to prison on drug charges at thirteen times the rate of white men, even though five times as many whites as blacks use illegal drugs."
It says:
Black men make up 6.6% of the population.
Whites 77% of the population.
So there are almost 13 times the number of whites in the US.
And if whites use drugs 5 times more than blacks, this means a black man is 2 1/2 times more likely to use drugs than a white.

They use white male in one part of the quote, but whites on another changing the definition to all white people, not just males.

To use round numbers:
If 2% of the population is black men using drugs, then 10% of the population is whites using drugs.
That means 12.5% of whites use drugs. 30% of black males use drugs.

Now remove the pot from the equation. Pot generally doesn't send you to jail. Hard drugs do. Pot is much more widely used in the white population than hard drugs percentage wise vs. The black community. If you only look at hard drigs, the percentage of convictions evens out.

Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests.

Typical twisting of facts. They only look at black males, but they include white females to skew the numbers. They also dont look at the kind of drugs they are including. In the end, the number of blacks and whites going to prison for drugs is an equal number.

This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say. It doesn't show racial bias at all.
Talk about entering the "spin zone".....

1st - where are you getting this "black men vs. white population"? No where in the article I referenced is there this "type" of comparison. Applying your logic - I agree mathematically; their argument would not make sense, BUT - this is not the case. You write "it says"....where? In fact, the article (in plain english) states black men vs. white men AND blacks vs. whites, respectively. NOT black men vs. white population. Unless you can provide a link that supports your claim(s), I'm taking your position(s) as unfounded opinions that are typically championed by propagandists. Link to the full article: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/...-war-on-drugs/

Additional link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3941346.html

Let's put pot back into the equation. According to USNEWS, "American law enforcement officers arrested one person for marijuana every 45 seconds in 2014, data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation show. The nearly 701,000 marijuana arrests, about 90 percent for possession alone, reveal an increase in busts for the first time since 2009, despite the spread of more lenient laws and policies." Again, I would like to see a link supporting your claim that "pot doesn't send you to jail". If you believe that hard drugs land you in jail vs. "soft" drugs (e.g., pot) - is this not a "targeted" double standard? A drug is a drug according to federal law, right? This has and is the problem - allowing some to cherry pick enforcement. Is it privilege? Just asking a question before you get your panties in a wad.

Lastly, what you accuse me of doing appears to be exactly what you're doing - "This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say."
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      03-30-2016, 03:15 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by obe100 View Post
Let's put pot back into the equation. According to USNEWS, "American law enforcement officers arrested one person for marijuana every 45 seconds in 2014, data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation show. The nearly 701,000 marijuana arrests, about 90 percent for possession alone, reveal an increase in busts for the first time since 2009, despite the spread of more lenient laws and policies." Again, I would like to see a link supporting your claim that "pot doesn't send you to jail". If you believe that hard drugs land you in jail vs. "soft" drugs (e.g., pot) - is this not a "targeted" double standard? A drug is a drug according to federal law, right? This has and is the problem - allowing some to cherry pick enforcement. Is it privilege? Just asking a question before you get your panties in a wad.
Ill just address the "Hard Drugs land you in jail more than soft drugs" argument. This is true most of the time, but not from discrimination, although that can be attributed to it, as can all judgement calls, but more because of the mandatory minimums that need to be revamped/done away with.

For example, to get the 5yr mandatory minimum, you need to be caught with basically a warehouse full of weed, or a pocket full of crack, or cargo shorts full of coke/heroin.... This then gives way to how officers view each offense. A 1/8th of weed, is under .01% of what the 5yr mandatory sentence is, while an 1/8th of coke is 1% or an 1/8th of Heroin is 3%. Add to it that weed has become a fairly socially acceptable drug, and you dont see as many do hard time for small amounts of weed like you do with coke and heroin. Some places it varies, as well as cop to cop, but the majority of personal and outside experience is a little bit of weed gets you a stern talking to, maybe sit in a cruiser for a little bit in cuffs, and thats about it, while you get worked over if you have something else on you.

Type of drug / Five Year Sentence / Ten Year Sentence
LSD / 1 gram / 10 grams
Marijuana/ 100 plants/100 kilos / 1000 plants/1000 kilos
Crack cocaine / 5 grams / 50 grams
Powder cocaine / 500 grams /5 kilos
Heroin / 100 grams /1 kilo
Methamphetamine / 10 grams / 100 grams
PCP / 10 grams / 100 grams
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      03-30-2016, 03:31 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obe100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Let's look at this phrase
"Black men are sent to prison on drug charges at thirteen times the rate of white men, even though five times as many whites as blacks use illegal drugs."
It says:
Black men make up 6.6% of the population.
Whites 77% of the population.
So there are almost 13 times the number of whites in the US.
And if whites use drugs 5 times more than blacks, this means a black man is 2 1/2 times more likely to use drugs than a white.

They use white male in one part of the quote, but whites on another changing the definition to all white people, not just males.

To use round numbers:
If 2% of the population is black men using drugs, then 10% of the population is whites using drugs.
That means 12.5% of whites use drugs. 30% of black males use drugs.

Now remove the pot from the equation. Pot generally doesn't send you to jail. Hard drugs do. Pot is much more widely used in the white population than hard drugs percentage wise vs. The black community. If you only look at hard drigs, the percentage of convictions evens out.

Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests.

Typical twisting of facts. They only look at black males, but they include white females to skew the numbers. They also dont look at the kind of drugs they are including. In the end, the number of blacks and whites going to prison for drugs is an equal number.

This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say. It doesn't show racial bias at all.
Talk about entering the "spin zone".....

1st - where are you getting this "black men vs. white population"? No where in the article I referenced is there this "type" of comparison. Applying your logic - I agree mathematically; their argument would not make sense, BUT - this is not the case. You write "it says"....where? In fact, the article (in plain english) states black men vs. white men AND blacks vs. whites, respectively. NOT black men vs. white population. Unless you can provide a link that supports your claim(s), I'm taking your position(s) as unfounded opinions that are typically championed by propagandists. Link to the full article: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/...-war-on-drugs/

Additional link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3941346.html

Let's put pot back into the equation. According to USNEWS, "American law enforcement officers arrested one person for marijuana every 45 seconds in 2014, data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation show. The nearly 701,000 marijuana arrests, about 90 percent for possession alone, reveal an increase in busts for the first time since 2009, despite the spread of more lenient laws and policies." Again, I would like to see a link supporting your claim that "pot doesn't send you to jail". If you believe that hard drugs land you in jail vs. "soft" drugs (e.g., pot) - is this not a "targeted" double standard? A drug is a drug according to federal law, right? This has and is the problem - allowing some to cherry pick enforcement. Is it privilege? Just asking a question before you get your panties in a wad.

Lastly, what you accuse me of doing appears to be exactly what you're doing - "This is just typical using statistics to say what you want them to say."
I believe his point was exactly that - to show that figures and statistics can be spun to "prove" conclusions that are not valid.

Speaking of - here's an article explaining the "nobody gets arrested for just marijuana" argument:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2015-05-13.html

And for those that take issue with Ms. Coulter, feel free to click on the links embedded in the article, and notice she's not exactly complimenting Republicans.
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      03-30-2016, 03:32 PM   #118
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      03-30-2016, 07:52 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
Ill just address the "Hard Drugs land you in jail more than soft drugs" argument. This is true most of the time, but not from discrimination, although that can be attributed to it, as can all judgement calls, but more because of the mandatory minimums that need to be revamped/done away with.

For example, to get the 5yr mandatory minimum, you need to be caught with basically a warehouse full of weed, or a pocket full of crack, or cargo shorts full of coke/heroin.... This then gives way to how officers view each offense. A 1/8th of weed, is under .01% of what the 5yr mandatory sentence is, while an 1/8th of coke is 1% or an 1/8th of Heroin is 3%. Add to it that weed has become a fairly socially acceptable drug, and you dont see as many do hard time for small amounts of weed like you do with coke and heroin. Some places it varies, as well as cop to cop, but the majority of personal and outside experience is a little bit of weed gets you a stern talking to, maybe sit in a cruiser for a little bit in cuffs, and thats about it, while you get worked over if you have something else on you.

Type of drug / Five Year Sentence / Ten Year Sentence
LSD / 1 gram / 10 grams
Marijuana/ 100 plants/100 kilos / 1000 plants/1000 kilos
Crack cocaine / 5 grams / 50 grams
Powder cocaine / 500 grams /5 kilos
Heroin / 100 grams /1 kilo
Methamphetamine / 10 grams / 100 grams
PCP / 10 grams / 100 grams
i agree - discretionary sentencing is a major problem in this country, and i firmly believe that race DOES play an enormous role which is illustrated in your chart. Look at the significant disparity between crack cocaine and powder cocaine sentences. Here's a relatively consistent argument: crack has been "demonized" and is tied to specific beliefs about the users — where they come from, what they look like, and the role they play in society. This is why I believe race as well as class (new identifier) contributes more than we want to accept. Is crack really all that different from its more "glamorous" counterpart, powder cocaine? No.

Bottom line - we both agree this broken "system" needs to be revamped.
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      03-30-2016, 08:23 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I believe his point was exactly that - to show that figures and statistics can be spun to "prove" conclusions that are not valid.

Speaking of - here's an article explaining the "nobody gets arrested for just marijuana" argument:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2015-05-13.html

And for those that take issue with Ms. Coulter, feel free to click on the links embedded in the article, and notice she's not exactly complimenting Republicans.
I can't speak to what you think his point is. For all I know, you guys might be in cahoots. Not sure what you mean by this: "to show that figures and statistics can be spun to "prove" conclusions that are not valid." Conclusions of this nature should be based on fact and not impression. In other words, you just can't pull something out of your ass - not you per se. I will say that the cause can be debated, but the effect cannot. Cause meaning - how/when/what people are "targeted" (topic of thread); effect meaning - imprisonment, etc.


Back to your "homie". I will say it appears he has very strong feelings on the subject based on the stats he presented. For example, he wrote - "Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests." Is his conclusion a derivative of "his" numbers? A link? Seems to me he believes his numbers are fact and I should accept them as such. I'm waiting on a link - not one from Ann Coulter. Anyone that subscribes to her logic should seek help....no offense, clearly my opinion. She's too extreme for Fox which says a lot.
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      03-30-2016, 09:04 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obe100
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I believe his point was exactly that - to show that figures and statistics can be spun to "prove" conclusions that are not valid.

Speaking of - here's an article explaining the "nobody gets arrested for just marijuana" argument:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2015-05-13.html

And for those that take issue with Ms. Coulter, feel free to click on the links embedded in the article, and notice she's not exactly complimenting Republicans.
I can't speak to what you think his point is. For all I know, you guys might be in cahoots. Not sure what you mean by this: "to show that figures and statistics can be spun to "prove" conclusions that are not valid." Conclusions of this nature should be based on fact and not impression. In other words, you just can't pull something out of your ass - not you per se. I will say that the cause can be debated, but the effect cannot. Cause meaning - how/when/what people are "targeted" (topic of thread); effect meaning - imprisonment, etc.


Back to your "homie". I will say it appears he has very strong feelings on the subject based on the stats he presented. For example, he wrote - "Finally, if you look at the high percentageof blacks doing drugs vs. White, it's obvious the black community has a much higher problem with drugs than the white. They also have a much higher overall crime rate. So more policing is directed their way leading to more arrests." Is his conclusion a derivative of "his" numbers? A link? Seems to me he believes his numbers are fact and I should accept them as such. I'm waiting on a link - not one from Ann Coulter. Anyone that subscribes to her logic should seek help....no offense, clearly my opinion. She's too extreme for Fox which says a lot.
Did you click on the links in her article?
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      03-31-2016, 11:43 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Did you click on the links in her article?
I clicked on the link, and it all sounded like bullshit to me.
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      03-31-2016, 11:51 AM   #123
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I clicked on the link, and it all sounded like bullshit to me.
That's because you believe the bs the left and the media feed you and not reality
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      03-31-2016, 12:34 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Did you click on the links in her article?
I clicked on the link, and it all sounded like bullshit to me.
Try this:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/ondcppubs/publ..._for_marij.pdf

"In this report, we have endeavored to set the record straight regarding one of the most pervasive myths about marijuana. The truth, supported overwhelmingly by the best data available, is that our prisons are not overflowing with people arrested just for smoking pot. On the contrary, we are seeking?through new treatment*oriented approaches such as drug courts?to divert those whose involvement with drugs is limited to their own use, while actively working to disrupt drug*trafficking organizations by prosecuting those who distribute or deal in illicit drugs."
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      03-31-2016, 01:32 PM   #125
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That's because you believe the bs the left and the media feed you and not reality
got those links yet? interested to read about your drug use/possession to incarceration stats? close to calling bullshit on your entire post......

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      03-31-2016, 01:37 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Did you click on the links in her article?
and not planning to. reading the link provided was more than enough - could not go further. again, not sure how you and others do it...(i.e., accept what she says as unadulterated fact)
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      03-31-2016, 04:13 PM   #127
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got those links yet? interested to read about your drug use/possession to incarceration stats? close to calling bullshit on your entire post......
Used their stats and census stats.

Blacks have a slightly higher conviction based on economic status, not race. Lower economic status means lower quality representation. But not enough to make anything look abnormal or racist. Vast majority of cops making the arrests are black themselves. Guess they're racist too.
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      03-31-2016, 04:43 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Used their stats and census stats.

Blacks have a slightly higher conviction based on economic status, not race. Lower economic status means lower quality representation. But not enough to make anything look abnormal or racist. Vast majority of cops making the arrests are black themselves. Guess they're racist too.
LOL - "economic status". You're mixing apples and oranges and deflecting. No disagreement on legal representation - you get what you can afford. BUT - it's the indictment that we're talking about. Classic example - kid possessing 50 grams of crack vs. Investment banker committing major fraud (e.g., mortgage collapse). Indictments are totally different when fraud is arguably a more serious crime. Bottom line: I'm done here as you didn't use "their" stats. Pretty sure you didn't read the article. Being dishonest is something I can't tolerate. You've had able opportunities to provide links. I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it because I'm not the specialist. I do research from multiple sources and do not pull things out of my ass. Legit debates - totally welcomed and accepted. You're probably of the crowd that believes racism began with Obama. I've read some of your other posts in the politics thread and every chance you have these sentiments shine bright. Not saying that you can't offer a different viewpoint, but fabrication is where I draw the line as its pointless. You seem somewhat angry and misguided and I won't speculate on the reason(s) other than its "cultural conditioning." Learn not to throw shit against the wall as it doesn't always stick.
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      03-31-2016, 05:33 PM   #129
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Now you're mixing crimes. Fraud is not arguable more serious. It also is extremely rare. Drugs are life and death. Fraud is money. Drug crime is common. Fraud as I said extremely rare.

Racism has been dead white toward black for decades. Racism against whites and males also is alive and well. Things like affirmative action, hiring quotas, etc.Even the BET channel is racist in its existence. And don't get me started on who's lives matter. All lives matter. All people should be and are judged equally. There are and have been laws requiring this. Any laws that show favoritism towards a specific group are racist. Simple as that.

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      03-31-2016, 05:52 PM   #130
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Government's role is not meant to make everyone have their fair share. It's meant to have everyone have the opportunity to earn their fair share. This means stopping discrimination for race, creed, sex, etc. It does not mean giving handouts or extra opportunity to race, creed, etc to help them improve. That's where the earn it falls into place. Anyone can earn their way to the top. That's just makong good choices, personal responsibility and hard work. Getting good grades. Showing up to work on time. Putting in extra effort. Not choosing bad things. Drugs, crime. Lazyness. If you are discrimated against, you have a fat lawsuit waiting for you. In the case of crime, nobody is arguing that the people in jail didn't do it. They're bitching there's more blacks convicted than whites proportionately. But they never ask if the black community might be doing more of the crime to begin with proportiona tell. That's not PC. But in the case of drugs it's reality. Sorry. To bad. No pity party for you. As you point out fraud, though about 200 times more rare, is typically a white crime. You don't see whites screaming they're being discriminated against because not enough blacks are convicted of fraud. You're argument and the whole premise this is based on is total bs.

Last edited by Fundguy1; 03-31-2016 at 06:06 PM..
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      03-31-2016, 06:36 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
...Racism against whites and males also is alive and well...
Fundy you are fucking delusional. To say there isn't white on black racism in this country is complete horseshit. Do you have to pay for an annual pass to Fantasyland, or do you buy a ticket whenever you go?
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      03-31-2016, 06:41 PM   #132
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It's equal if not more black racism towards whites. Black president for 8 yrs. Affirmative action quotas. Award ceremonies. Charities. Etc etc etc. Where's white history month? Where's the white entertainment awards? Why don't blacks need to score 28 points better than whites to become a NJ state trooper? How come blacks with better grades don't get passed on for college emissions so more whites can get a college education? On and on. Stop the bs already. Sorry. World ain't fair.
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