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      08-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by alvape View Post
Over here in Belgium I know someone who has owned Jags for the past 20 years or so, the last two being XK8s. Then the government decided to tax any car that emits over 150g of CO2/km to death, meaning the XK would've cost him 18.000 extra over the next two years (when it would be due for replacement). He now drives a 163hp XF 2.2D. Same story with my neighbour, who dreamt of owning a 911 all his life, only to have to park it in storage after a year because it just costs too much. It's the reason why you can buy a 148hp 518d and a 4-cylinder S-class in Europe.

Now imagine all those fairly well-off but not exactly filthy rich executives who can't afford a 911/6er/SL/XK anymore, being offered something like an i8. It's around their price range, they can justify it as a company car, it sets them apart from all the middle managers in their diesel wagons and offers enough range to get them to their weekend resort near the coast and back. I think that is exactly the crowd BMW could be catering for.
Thanks for the context. I'm not very familiar with the government regulations or the potential market segments in Europe as I am in the US or the Middle East, so it's interesting to hear about examples like the two you list above.
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      08-07-2013, 01:48 PM   #90
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that 1.5 turbo 3 banger makes 230+ HP. holy sh1T !!
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      08-07-2013, 01:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by MY13E92M3 View Post
I'm not surprised at all with the number of concerns regarding this, "highly anticipated," super car from BMW. It's not complaining, but rather disappointment.

We need to follow this thread to see what changes (if any,) will be made and to monitor the development of the car.

Yes, the skinny tires help reduce the drag coefficient, but it does affect performance in EVERY aspect. Put some 328i tires (225/50-17) on a M3 (265/35-19) and take it around the track.

All this technology to make this car lighter has gotten it 100-200lbs less than an E92? Common, that's nearly M3 weight, once you sit in it.

I agree with one thing, "This car isn't the answer, but it's the next step so we can use a finite resource more efficiently. BMW is thankfully showing us how we can use this diminishing resource and still have FUN (unlike the Prius)."

As an enthusiast, I think this will be something interesting to follow.
You make good points. I think this car was meant more to be an engineering exercise than more of a pure performance car as some may argue the M-series (except maybe the X5 and X6) are intended to be. My belief is that this car was meant to show that you can have efficient, modern hybrid technology in a car that is still fun to drive. Most owners unfortunately will not take this car to a track. If they do and want to push this car to 10/10ths, they can fit fatter tires on it. From the factory, BMW is bound to put skinnier tires so that it can get better efficiency in everyday usage.

As for the point on weight, I still believe it's very impressive. A lot of cars are coming out at 3400-3500+ lbs with gasoline engines and fuel for ONE engine. A lot of exotic materials and engineering to be "only" 100-200 lbs less than an E92 is not something to be shrugged off. Again, this car has TWO motors for propulsion and the means to carry the "fuel" for both (fuel in quotes because one of the fuel sources is technically electricity for the electric motor). Batteries aren't light. The Tesla Model S is proof of that (curb weight ~4650 lbs). It might perform well, but that weight doesn't go by unnoticed.

This car has the means to have weight around what you'd expect from most other cars on the road today while delivering a lot more efficiency and while being fun (I haven't driven the car, the "fun" bit is an assumption). All of this is simply something we don't have today, at least not that I can think of: a car that is about average weight, if not maybe a bit below, with a highly efficient propulsion system that is more efficient than other existing solutions out on the roads today, AND fun to drive. Other cars seem to sacrifice performance in favor of efficiency. Or if you want performance, you sacrifice efficiency. I simply can't think of another fun hybrid car on the road today. This car gets us both without costing well over half a million dollars.

I think the key thing is that it all depends on how you define a supercar. A supercar should be fast, sure, but I think the engineering and technology are the main focus of this car more so than its actual performance numbers (which are still respectable). The technology and what it's achieved make it a supercar if you ask me. The numbers only tell one story.
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      08-07-2013, 02:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW Three Cylinder with Twin Power Turbo.
In the i8 the three cylinders output is direct only to the i8 and is more powerful than the conventional three cylinder that will appear in the next generation MINI.
Just wondering, why isn't a diesel used instead of petrol engine? Diesel is more economical. Ok you may consider it in the i3 instead of this car.
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      08-07-2013, 02:30 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by norsairius View Post
You make good points. I think this car was meant more to be an engineering exercise than more of a pure performance car as some may argue the M-series (except maybe the X5 and X6) are intended to be. My belief is that this car was meant to show that you can have efficient, modern hybrid technology in a car that is still fun to drive. Most owners unfortunately will not take this car to a track. If they do and want to push this car to 10/10ths, they can fit fatter tires on it. From the factory, BMW is bound to put skinnier tires so that it can get better efficiency in everyday usage.

As for the point on weight, I still believe it's very impressive. A lot of cars are coming out at 3400-3500+ lbs with gasoline engines and fuel for ONE engine. A lot of exotic materials and engineering to be "only" 100-200 lbs less than an E92 is not something to be shrugged off. Again, this car has TWO motors for propulsion and the means to carry the "fuel" for both (fuel in quotes because one of the fuel sources is technically electricity for the electric motor). Batteries aren't light. The Tesla Model S is proof of that (curb weight ~4650 lbs). It might perform well, but that weight doesn't go by unnoticed.

This car has the means to have weight around what you'd expect from most other cars on the road today while delivering a lot more efficiency and while being fun (I haven't driven the car, the "fun" bit is an assumption). All of this is simply something we don't have today, at least not that I can think of: a car that is about average weight, if not maybe a bit below, with a highly efficient propulsion system that is more efficient than other existing solutions out on the roads today, AND fun to drive. Other cars seem to sacrifice performance in favor of efficiency. Or if you want performance, you sacrifice efficiency. I simply can't think of another fun hybrid car on the road today. This car gets us both without costing well over half a million dollars.

I think the key thing is that it all depends on how you define a supercar. A supercar should be fast, sure, but I think the engineering and technology are the main focus of this car more so than its actual performance numbers (which are still respectable). The technology and what it's achieved make it a supercar if you ask me. The numbers only tell one story.


Fully agree with this sentiment. Sheer straight line acceleration, other than bragging rights, isn't what fun driving is all about. Unless you're into drag racing.

The i8 is gorgeous, a technological marvel, and unique. Looks fun to drive. With only 360HP (and not 600) you can take it to the track and wring the hell out of it, and if performance is on par as is being reported with the outgoing E92 M3, then you will have lots of fun in doing so!

BTW, I would take my i8 to the track (with fatter tires, which one of the road reviews mentioned will be available as an option from the factory)

But then again, I'd take my X6M to the track so I am likely not the common demographic, hehe.
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      08-07-2013, 02:57 PM   #94
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Enjoy.

Holger Winkelmann, Head of Aerodynamic BMW Group
[in German and English]




BMW i8 Prototype in the aerodynamic test center




BMW i8 Prototype in the AEROLAB




BMW i8 - measurements of aerodynamic currents

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      08-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #95
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^^

Very cool videos, thanks for posting the update.
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      08-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSERGEI-BY View Post
Just wondering, why isn't a diesel used instead of petrol engine? Diesel is more economical. Ok you may consider it in the i3 instead of this car.

You're absolutely right about the efficiency of a diesel. But due to markets where diesel is not as common and has the quality of european diesel, [hint] USA [/hint], they decided on a petrol engine eventually.

The first concepts were running with a diesel engine.
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      08-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #97
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for a hybrid this car is amazing. very well performance specs, beautiful looks.

what confuses me is how BMW is going to sell this against R8, 911. with that $100K price tag, how many pre-fisker karma customers are they going to get? unless you are really big on green and eco-friendly, why would you spend 100k on a E90 M3-performance car rather than a 911 performance car.

i think the i8 is more of a technological showcase to the world that BMW is capable of mass producing CFRP structures, performance hybrid systems at a reasonable price and stuff all that into fancy new architectures.
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      08-07-2013, 04:57 PM   #98
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This car would be infinitely better if it didn't have the several hundred pounds of dead weight in it.
But then how would you get to work?
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      08-07-2013, 06:11 PM   #99
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But then how would you get to work?
Well played... I guess the bus then.
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      08-07-2013, 07:08 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
what confuses me is how BMW is going to sell this against R8, 911. with that $100K price tag, how many pre-fisker karma customers are they going to get? unless you are really big on green and eco-friendly, why would you spend 100k on a E90 M3-performance car rather than a 911 performance car.
The E92 M3 is often compared to the 911 (not the Turbo); the M3 is a respectable car to be benchmarked against.

The R8 V8 4.2 does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds (source). It has 430 HP, 316 lb ft torque, and a starting price tag of $114k. No CRFP frame. No futuristic tech. The interior isn't even that great. No 2+2 back seat. Weights 3,439 lbs with manual gearbox (source)

Compare to the i8, yes less peak HP at 361, but it has more torque at 420 lb ft, weighs less by over 150 lbs, has the tech, CRFP, etc. 0-60 in 4.5s claimed by BMW, likely to be less when tested properly as is usually the case with BMW. We don't know the price yet but it could be $125k-$150k base price. Again, within the ballpark.

Let's say i8 comes in at $150k; ok, look at Maserati's, which go from the $130's to $180's depending on options. Their performance numbers don't match either for the price. I smoked one in my X6M and the guy wasn't too happy.

People buy Maserati's because of the engine sound, Italian character, beautiful design. To me, the i8 is the German version of that. It's beauty is in the engineering, exotic materials, high-tech, and futuristic (beautiful in my opinion) design.

I think it is very comparable when you consider all such factors. Performance numbers aren't all that it's about. A $70k Ford Mustang GT500 has 662hp and will smoke almost anything on the road in a straight line, does 0-60 in like 3.5 seconds. That's FAST. But for me, it doesn't do anything, because it's missing those intangible qualiites that the R8, the Maserati's, and the i8 all have, albeit they exhibit these characteristics in their own individual ways.

You want R8 V10 competitor (Starts at $151k and $170k for the V10 plus) - maybe that will be this rumored i8 ///M variant, for an extra $40k or so.

It seems to me that the numbers are very reasonably close, and the i8 is most certainly comparable to an R8 V8.

Last edited by ddk632; 08-07-2013 at 07:37 PM.. Reason: Fix mistake
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      08-08-2013, 01:30 AM   #101
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BMW should also build a gas only version.

See which one sells better.
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      08-09-2013, 04:16 PM   #102
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BMW i8 video from Autobild.

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      08-09-2013, 11:54 PM   #103
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I am looking forward to i8 being released. I am hoping that it has great driving dynamics in addition to the efficiency.

There are couple of things that bother me a bit. First, one being the super skinny tires for such a powerful car. I mean 195 and 215.

Even super sport class motorcycles have wider contact patch then i8. I know that they are trying to keep rolling friction low due to efficiency. But 195 and 215 that is too skinny. I think at least 245/265 would have been reasonable.

Second, 6-speed auto is bit outdated. They should have used 8-speed auto or 7 speed DCT.

I am pretty sure this is a money making scheme again. As they might do LCI in 3 years and offer 8-spd or 7-spd and raise prices a bit.
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      08-11-2013, 06:09 AM   #104
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BMW i8 Official Specs (Prelim) Released Ahead of Frankfurt Debut

Sneak Preview.
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      08-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #105
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I have to say that Tesla is putting out far better technology when it comes to the electric motor. Far more range and faster than an M5. The i8 looks great, and the materials used are fantastic, but I would like to see more range and output from the electric motor. I would have to go with Tesla at this point, but I am waiting for them to come out with a new coupe version.
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      08-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by MidnightM3 View Post
I have to say that Tesla is putting out far better technology when it comes to the electric motor. Far more range and faster than an M5. The i8 looks great, and the materials used are fantastic, but I would like to see more range and output from the electric motor. I would have to go with Tesla at this point, but I am waiting for them to come out with a new coupe version.
The electric motor of the i8 is the same that is used in the i3. They already reduced the output from 170 (i3) to 130 hp for the i8 - so they didn't intend to make it more powerful.
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      08-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #107
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Envuks View Post
Second. This thing screams Tesla crowd
You think so? I'm not convinced. Tesla owners seem to wear the fact that they're not burning any hydrocarbons (from the car) like a badge of honor. The i8 is a hybrid and wouldn't quite scratch that itch.
Yeah, I guess you're right about that, but the BMW seems more practical to me with the option to use gas.... I'll be curious to see where it lands price-wise. Everyone is thinking 100k-125k, but I think it's going to come in lower (my guess is 70k - 80k)... Of course, I'm probably off base
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      08-13-2013, 02:30 PM   #108
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      08-13-2013, 03:16 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nockenpaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightM3 View Post
I have to say that Tesla is putting out far better technology when it comes to the electric motor. Far more range and faster than an M5. The i8 looks great, and the materials used are fantastic, but I would like to see more range and output from the electric motor. I would have to go with Tesla at this point, but I am waiting for them to come out with a new coupe version.
The electric motor of the i8 is the same that is used in the i3. They already reduced the output from 170 (i3) to 130 hp for the i8 - so they didn't intend to make it more powerful.
I'm in their proclaimed target market and I don't know about you, but I want a full electric that hauls, with range. I am in-market right now and there are areas of compromise in my opinion that I just don't really like in the i8.

Whether BMWs intention or not, when you look at pricing and overall mileage and power output, Tesla surpasses the i8 on paper and is winning awards in the process.

It will need to be truly revolutionary in other areas of style, form and function
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      08-13-2013, 06:21 PM   #110
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The Telsa looks like a cross between a Jag, Aston Martin, Mazda, and a Hyundai. Not my cup of tea.

The base 85kw battery in the Tesla is good for 362 HP. It's their "signature performance" version that has the 416hp, and does 0-60 in 4.0 secs. Not faster than an M5, which has been consistently clocked in sub 4.0 second times. Doesn't have even close to 50/50 weight distribution. And the damn thing weighs 1500 lbs more than the i8.

I think i8 will eat the Tesla for breakfast, note that I am sure a more powerful iteration will eventually be offered for an apples to apples comparison. I don't see why everyone is so excited about the Tesla. The i8 is 100 times the car that the Tesla Model S will ever be.
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