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      12-07-2019, 10:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
A high school acquaintance of mine (also for the department I trained/volunteered for was a part of) was killed deploying stop sticks. The piece of shit that killed him drove into him on purpose in the median of the freeway. I was with one night we deployed sticks in the highway (thankfully at 2 AM) and even with no traffic it was scary as hell.

I am surprised though, I didnít see them trying to use them in any of the videos. Not saying they didnít as we obviously havenít seen the entire pursuit. Also no attempt at a pit maneuver or more robust road blocks etc. Again we havenít seen the entire pursuit. Iím also guessing coordinating the five (IIRC) different departments that may have different policies/procedures obviously wasnít easy either.
Our dept pilot projected them and then decided against them. They had very limited success and put too many officers at risk. I think Traffic Supervisors may have had them in their cars but I never saw them.
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      12-07-2019, 10:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
I've only seen snippets of the pursuit and gunfight. Frighting. I was hesitating whether or not to weigh in as these things always get quite animated. Folks have very strong views on everything LE does.

I've probably been in more than 2 dozen pursuits, some went text book and other turned into demolition derbies. Just about every single one ended with the suspect involved in a collision, often very serious.

Some of the pursuits lasted over an hour and others just seconds. Just about the most unpredictable things you can imagine. The training has gotten much better and so has policy which generally varies from agency to agency but it has been evolving over the years. Some departments use PIT others forbid it, some have stop sticks others do not.

The one thing I can say for sure is nobody knows how it will end, and the police are usually in a very bad position regardless of what they do.

Sorry if that's long winded but I could literally write a book on this topic.
Sharpen your pencil! You have been Prancercised making you a fully initiated member so you don't get to walk away that easily.

I realize that MM quarterbacking is horrible, especially on this topic with the added negative of no real footage. That said, what do you think could have been done better knowing the information you have vs. your experience.
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      12-07-2019, 10:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Sharpen your pencil! You have been Prancercised making you a fully initiated member so you don't get to walk away that easily.

I realize that MM quarterbacking is horrible, especially on this topic with the added negative of no real footage. That said, what do you think could have been done better knowing the information you have vs. your experience.
Our department basically terminated every pursuit almost immediately the feeling being that that carnage resulting wasn't worth the offence that had been committed. There was always another day to catch the client. Although some such as this were generally continued, the hostage really is a big factor. Perhaps they could've backed off a bit to keep speed down, but I honestly hate to second guess a situation that I wasn't involved in and am not fully briefed on the actual facts, evidence and officers and witness statements.

This is a situation that is excellent for a police helicopter, I don't know if one was available. We didn't have one in my dept because the left leaners thought it was too expensive.
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      12-07-2019, 10:40 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Our department basically terminated every pursuit almost immediately the feeling being that that carnage resulting wasn't worth the offence that had been committed. There was always another day to catch the client. Although some such as this were generally continued, the hostage really is a big factor. Perhaps they could've backed off a bit to keep speed down, but I honestly hate to second guess a situation that I wasn't involved in and am not fully briefed on the actual facts, evidence and officers and witness statements.
Thanks for the answer and I apologize about putting you in that position.

Nearly every LEO I know and interact with (when I'm not getting a ticket ) feels this way and it's policy in most places. Fully understanding that the robbery and hostage make a hash of things, this is the most reasonable policy.

Cheers, my friend-mk
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      12-07-2019, 10:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Our department basically terminated every pursuit almost immediately the feeling being that that carnage resulting wasn't worth the offence that had been committed. There was always another day to catch the client. Although some such as this were generally continued, the hostage really is a big factor. Perhaps they could've backed off a bit to keep speed down, but I honestly hate to second guess a situation that I wasn't involved in and am not fully briefed on the actual facts, evidence and officers and witness statements.

This is a situation that is excellent for a police helicopter, I don't know if one was available. We didn't have one in my dept because the left leaners thought it was too expensive.
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      12-07-2019, 11:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Thanks for the answer and I apologize about putting you in that position.

Nearly every LEO I know and interact with (when I'm not getting a ticket ) feels this way and it's policy in most places. Fully understanding that the robbery and hostage make a hash of things, this is the most reasonable policy.

Cheers, my friend-mk
Our PDs policy was simplified to if you can shoot them you can chase them.
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      12-07-2019, 11:52 AM   #51
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I don't have any more knowledge of what happened than anyone else but expect stop sticks, blockades or other such measures would have been difficult to deploy in this case. They were not on a single straight road that gave police time to set up further down the road. They could choose any variety of twists and turns so you're talking about trying to set something up in multiple locations with equipment substantial and big enough to stop a truck while trying to avoid a busy intersection (of which there are plenty in Miami). Maybe they tried and the truck took a turn - really no way to know right now.

The whole thing sucks and it could have been even worse under a variety of scenarios.
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      12-07-2019, 12:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Many thanks for your input. I was about to PM and ask for it anyway so perfect timing.
I'm curious to Sedan_Clan thoughts here as well.
I'll definitely go back and read the entire thread, but here's a summary about how I feel regarding the Miami incident.

The unfortunate truth about hostage situations is the fact that the hostage does not always survive. It's a really sad situation because members of law enforcement want nothing more than to save everybody each and every time. In the Miami incident there were two armed perpetrators who began shooting at police once their option to run had diminished. There were a number of innocent civilians in POV's in the vicinity, and those innocent civilians could've become additional hostages or collateral damage. Ultimately law enforcement had to neutralize the very real and present threat/danger to the safety of the general public, and therein lay the outcome. The situation was ugly, but doing this job is never pretty.
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      12-07-2019, 12:06 PM   #53
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What in the complete and utter FUCK!?!?!?!?!

I've watched this and other footage several times and I still can't believe WTF I watched.
this is some of the most Horrific Disregard for human life by Police EVER!!!

This reminded me of that shootout in the movie Sicario!

Since when do or can Police use innocent bystanders inside of their vehicles as shields in a high powered shootout? When can Police disregard a innocent hostage?

The implications of this incident are tremendous.

Just wooooooow.....

I understand your emotional response, but dealing with a public menace does not always result in a movie outcome. Those individuals were armed and shooting at the police. At any moment a mother, a child, a grandmother, etc. could've become another pawn in the game those criminals were playing. It is not pretty; it was a lose/lose situation.
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      12-07-2019, 12:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
What in the complete and utter FUCK!?!?!?!?!

I've watched this and other footage several times and I still can't believe WTF I watched.
this is some of the most Horrific Disregard for human life by Police EVER!!!

This reminded me of that shootout in the movie Sicario!

Since when do or can Police use innocent bystanders inside of their vehicles as shields in a high powered shootout? When can Police disregard a innocent hostage?

The implications of this incident are tremendous.

Just wooooooow.....

Agreed, I'm extremely supportive of the police and hate second guessing them/their decisions in the heat of the moment (I went to school for LE and trained/volunteered with a local PD for years).......but geezus. I to can't believe what I just watched and the decisions that where made. Especially using civilian vehicles like they are SWAT vehicles for cover while firing. They obviously are making the civilians inside those vehicles targets. I'm truly dumbfounded. If they wanted to take them down it appears they had many opportunities prior to this when there were hardly any civilians around.

You are correct, this will be talked about, litigated, studied and eventually turned into a training opportunity for future officers in the years to come.
I do agree with your final point. Every shootout or major incident will be quarterbacked for years.......which is really easy to do when the people quarterbacking it weren't there.
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      12-07-2019, 12:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iminhell1 View Post
Doesn't every UPS truck have GPS?

What was the need to pursue them?


The mind of virtually everyone is the same, when you feel threatened you defend yourself.
The chase made them feel threatened. Remove the threat, make them feel safe and use the GPS to arrest them once in a safer location or stopped at their destination. I mean you can't tell me a chopper could have been out of sight and had an eye on them.


I'm always dumbfounded at this theory that stopping them sooner will prevent more harm. It simply is not true.
Your thought process is flawed.
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      12-07-2019, 12:15 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Law enforcement is responding to an armed robbery that became a gunfight. The perpetrators then carjacked a truck an took a person hostage.

First, I can guarantee you the hostage and his loved ones wouldn't like your plan to "remove the threat" of law enforcement and let them get away. Sure you'll find the truck, but we're not trying to protect the citizens from the truck! It's the guys IN THE TRUCK we're chasing. Can you imagine being held hostage and the cops chasing your hostage takers stop their pursuit? I'd be furious.

Also, as soon as the armed robbers started shooting they became a threat to society that needed to be stopped at all costs. This means law enforcement is going to use escalating force until they're stopped. Yes, this includes firing at the threat on a busy highway. It sucks to be caught in the crossfire, but let's keep perspective here. It's the robbers/kidnappers fault any of this happened.
I am a 100% law and order guy.

There also needs to be judgement. This is why they have adjusted their policy regarding traffic pursuits. There was a decision made to end collateral casualties due to the pursuits. This merits a 2nd look at the policies from the pursuit to the execution of the strategies designed to end the pursuit.
Pursuit policies have been adjusted in major metropolitan areas to reduce pursuits of non-violent crimes. This was a violent crime. Even my department's pursuit policy allows for pursuits for robbery, kidnapping, grand theft auto and assault with a deadly weapon, all of which the perpetrators in the Miami incident committed.
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      12-07-2019, 12:22 PM   #57
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Prevention of the loss of life is the goal of stopping the threat. They're intrinsically linked.
In theory. De-escallation of a pursuit should have been the priority. Better strategies should have been used to stop the vehicle. Attempting to park a small mini-van to block a commercial vas was feckless in the highest order.

I'm not going to argue about this. This should be a case study because it is a failure in policy, execution, and outcome.
We don't know that it was a failure of policy, execution or outcome. None of us know that agency's pursuit policy, but aside that, this isn't football. There's no, "Runaway UPS Box Truck" defensive play. Pursuits are fluid, unpredictable; there's no way to predict how a pursuit will terminate and it's impossible to prepare for a scenario that has options to infinity.
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      12-07-2019, 12:25 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We don't know that it was a failure of policy, execution or outcome. None of us know that agency's pursuit policy, but aside that, this isn't football. There's no, "Runaway UPS Box Truck" defensive play. Pursuits are fluid, unpredictable; there's no way to predict how a pursuit will terminate and it's impossible to prepare for a scenario that has options to infinity.
The outcome is primarily driven by the actions of the pursued, as in most use of force situations LE respond to the threat.
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      12-07-2019, 12:27 PM   #59
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I feel compelled to remind everyone that this pursuit occurred after the suspects had already been involved in a gunfight and taken a hostage. This isn't a situation where LE is pursuing someone who simply isn't pulling over.
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      12-07-2019, 12:27 PM   #60
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Quote:
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I'll give you the failure of outcome... but I'm personally not convinced it is a failure of policy or execution. Law enforcement's entire reason for being there is to stop the threat. We often use guns to accomplish this.
So clearly things went terribly wrong here. Having been involved in a great many pursuits and high risk situations I will say that you can have policy and procedures and all the training that there is time for and things still rarely go as you'd predict.

The outcome is often dictated by the suspects as policing is generally a reactionary thing, LEO rarely have the luxury of controlling a situation despite what TV and movies would lead us to believe.

What I see here is a situation that involved a hostage which puts the police in a position of having to attempt to effect a rescue either by negotiations or dynamic rescue, and I suspect that drove the pursuit to a certain extent. The officers using civilian vehicles for cover is a response to self preservation and training as when you are taking fire you go to the closest cover.

I'm not making excuses as there will clearly be a very long and detailed investigation of what went very wrong and what went right. There will likely be policy and procedure changes and training that comes out of this.

The one thing I will say is that it's easy to Monday morning quarterback this and I'm just very happy that it wasn't me in that situation and that there wasn't a greater loss of life.
Excellent response from someone who, like me, has been in the thick of it. I don't claim to know it all either, but I've been in enough pursuits to have an intricate knowledge about how things rarely ever pan out the way we expect or want them too, and how dynamic and unpredictable they tend to be.
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      12-07-2019, 12:29 PM   #61
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I think it comes down to who started shooting first, which isn’t totally clear from the footage. If the UPS truck suspects did, what choice do the LEOs have other than to take cover wherever they can and return fire? I mean, it’s kind of absurd to say that they should have stood tall without cover to draw fire away from civilians even if it was remotely possible with that number of cars packed together in traffic.
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      12-07-2019, 12:31 PM   #62
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Have they determined who's guns killed the civilians ?
It's way too early. It'll be weeks before they determine that.
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      12-07-2019, 12:33 PM   #63
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I think it comes down to who started shooting first, which isn't totally clear from the footage.
The perpetrators were in a gunfight at the jewelry store before they ever hijacked the UPS truck and took a hostage. Their guns were already hot before the police even showed up.
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      12-07-2019, 12:34 PM   #64
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Many thanks for your input. I was about to PM and ask for it anyway so perfect timing.
I've only seen snippets of the pursuit and gunfight. Frighting. I was hesitating whether or not to weigh in as these things always get quite animated. Folks have very strong views on everything LE does.

I've probably been in more than 2 dozen pursuits, some went text book and other turned into demolition derbies. Just about every single one ended with the suspect involved in a collision, often very serious.

Some of the pursuits lasted over an hour and others just seconds. Just about the most unpredictable things you can imagine. The training has gotten much better and so has policy which generally varies from agency to agency but it has been evolving over the years. Some departments use PIT others forbid it, some have stop sticks others do not.

The one thing I can say for sure is nobody knows how it will end, and the police are usually in a very bad position regardless of what they do.

Sorry if that's long winded but I could literally write a book on this topic.
We JUST got authorization to use the PIT technique. When I was with the highway patrol, PIT and stop sticks were tools that we had. Now that I'm County, we don't have Stop Sticks and the department just authorized us to use PIT; it's being taught by my prior department.
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      12-07-2019, 12:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Stop sticks are great but have a very limited range of applications, and aren't always available. A number of coppers have been killed deploying them (hit by the suspect vehicle or a pursuing police car), like I said in my other post, this is going to be looked at long and hard.
A high school acquaintance of mine (also for the department I trained/volunteered for was a part of) was killed deploying stop sticks. The piece of shit that killed him drove into him on purpose in the median of the freeway. I was with one night we deployed sticks in the highway (thankfully at 2 AM) and even with no traffic it was scary as hell.

I am surprised though, I didn't see them trying to use them in any of the videos. Not saying they didn't as we obviously haven't seen the entire pursuit. Also no attempt at a pit maneuver or more robust road blocks etc. Again we haven't seen the entire pursuit. I'm also guessing coordinating the five (IIRC) different departments that may have different policies/procedures obviously wasn't easy either.
PIT on a dual axle box truck with a typical patrol unit would've been more difficult. Stop Sticks pose the dangers that you speak of, and are most effective when you have some pathway control or have some idea about the direction perpetrators are heading.
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      12-07-2019, 12:38 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We JUST got authorization to use the PIT technique. When I was with the highway patrol, PIT and stop sticks were tools that we had. Now that I'm County, we don't have Stop Sticks and the department just authorized us to use PIT; it's being taught by my prior department.
We were forbidden to PIT, we could disable a suspect auto by contacting the front wheels with our car at slow speed......slow speed sometimes was open to interoperation though.

When I started pursuits often looked like a demolition derby
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