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      07-20-2015, 12:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yw View Post
Nice racing lines on the track. Unfortunately, my track prowess is embarrassingly similar to the guy in the Porsche.
Thanks

The Porsche 911 Turbo driver is actually a friend of mine, and is a very good driver. The problem was that he saw me approaching in his mirror, and naturally had to try going faster to keep me from overtaking quickly. So he overdid it, with the result that he nearly had an off. He recovered it well though.

I had backed off coming into the bend to avoid pressuring him, but to no avail.

And yes, I have never let him hear the end of it
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      07-20-2015, 01:25 PM   #24
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I am pretty sure that the i8 doesnt go with lc...
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      07-20-2015, 02:33 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JasH View Post
Thanks

The Porsche 911 Turbo driver is actually a friend of mine, and is a very good driver. The problem was that he saw me approaching in his mirror, and naturally had to try going faster to keep me from overtaking quickly. So he overdid it, with the result that he nearly had an off. He recovered it well though.

I had backed off coming into the bend to avoid pressuring him, but to no avail.

And yes, I have never let him hear the end of it
Well, I guess that makes only one of us. If it's any consolation, please let your friend know that he's a better driver than I to have recovered from the misstep.

Glad I wasn't there to demonstrate how not to drive! I've oversteered the 911T a few (loosely interpreted) times resulting in involuntary 180s and 360s on 90 degree turns on the track.
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      07-20-2015, 03:27 PM   #26
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      07-20-2015, 03:32 PM   #27
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The 911 turbo is very stable, I have quite a lot of experience with both, no track time in i8, but even in street conditions, the i8 has a lot less grip in tight turns with high speed due to narrow tires. Even in comparison to my Panamera Turbo with 540bhp it handles less controllably. The Porsches sort of slode in the back, the i8 understeers more.
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      07-20-2015, 03:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yw View Post
Glad I wasn't there to demonstrate how not to drive! I've oversteered the 911T a few (loosely interpreted) times resulting in involuntary 180s and 360s on 90 degree turns on the track.
You're being modest I am sure

I've overcooked it myself plenty of times, and once did a perfect 360 at Bedford (track) when trying to do a high speed powerslide. Bad idea in an Lotus Elise. Looked cool though, as I kept going through the 360 Lots of luck involved of course, rather than skill

Just 3 weeks ago, I went into the first bend much too fast on my very first session ever on the Top Gear track, at a charity event in my Exige. Fortunately I managed to control it and (just) held the line.

Funny thing is my friend with the 911 Turbo (4WD), did the exact same thing on that same bend on his first time.....and went off into the grass

Could be worse though, as at the second corner, a chap in a TVR not only went off, but hit the tyre wall, damaging his car
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      07-20-2015, 03:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kip1 View Post
The 911 turbo is very stable, I have quite a lot of experience with both, no track time in i8, but even in street conditions, the i8 has a lot less grip in tight turns with high speed due to narrow tires. Even in comparison to my Panamera Turbo with 540bhp it handles less controllably. The Porsches sort of slode in the back, the i8 understeers more.
For me, it took some time getting use to the 911T handling characteristics. But once I became familiar with it, it became very predictable and controllable. What size profile are your i8 tires? Mine are 215 F and 245 R. Second question, what size for i8 track purposes would you recommend?
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      07-21-2015, 09:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kip1 View Post
Thanks for the update.

This is my last post on this subject.

These encounters were skewed to the strengths of the Tesla. Most people agree that 0-60 is a traction event and the Tesla definitely has an advantage in the lower speed ranges. I'd like to see a post of a more typical pull...60-130 or 70-130. Another good test is the standing kilometer or the standing 1/2 mile.

I would expect the Tesla to get slaughtered in the latter two. It simply doesn't have the legs to complete these races and is handicapped by it's drivetrain. I would consider these test of the Tesla to be as invalid as the comparison of the i8 to the Tesla in each of the videos posted. The instruments are invalid making the data useless.

Cheers-MK
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      07-21-2015, 05:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yw View Post
For me, it took some time getting use to the 911T handling characteristics. But once I became familiar with it, it became very predictable and controllable. What size profile are your i8 tires? Mine are 215 F and 245 R. Second question, what size for i8 track purposes would you recommend?
I have standard 215/245. I feel the grip is missing mainly in the front, so 245/245 should do the trick, but I have yet to get anyone confirm that it wont rub when stock. If someone could confirm this, it might be possible to order rear ri.s to the front and put Michelin pilot supersports all around. I bet that would solve it, but I dont want to modify the chassis, it would have to be stock.
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      07-21-2015, 05:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Thanks for the update.

This is my last post on this subject.

These encounters were skewed to the strengths of the Tesla. Most people agree that 0-60 is a traction event and the Tesla definitely has an advantage in the lower speed ranges. I'd like to see a post of a more typical pull...60-130 or 70-130. Another good test is the standing kilometer or the standing 1/2 mile.

I would expect the Tesla to get slaughtered in the latter two. It simply doesn't have the legs to complete these races and is handicapped by it's drivetrain. I would consider these test of the Tesla to be as invalid as the comparison of the i8 to the Tesla in each of the videos posted. The instruments are invalid making the data useless.

Cheers-MK
Why are you so angry. The Tesla has 700, soon 750 bhp, the i8 362. The Tesla is faster in most situations, why does that make you angry? Who cares, the Tesla is a big, slightly boring sedan, the i8 gives a lot of thrills to the driver.
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      07-21-2015, 08:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kip1 View Post
I have standard 215/245. I feel the grip is missing mainly in the front, so 245/245 should do the trick, but I have yet to get anyone confirm that it wont rub when stock. If someone could confirm this, it might be possible to order rear ri.s to the front and put Michelin pilot supersports all around. I bet that would solve it, but I dont want to modify the chassis, it would have to be stock.
Thanks for the feedback on the front grip issue. The Michelin PSS 245s sound like a great idea, if it can be accomplished.

As an afterthought and in my specific case, I would be less inclined to sacrifice ride in favor for better track handling. While there may be enough clearance between the 245s and the front arches, chances are the springs and related suspension components will have to be stiffened in order to support the handling and to prevent rubbing from occurring. I would also have to consider adding additional paint film protection along the aft panel section of the front wheel wells since the 245s will definitely protrude out from the front arches. Guess I'll stick to borrowing my friends' track cars for the occasional novice runs.
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      07-22-2015, 08:28 AM   #34
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This is a good discussion, regarding tyre width.

Gut feel though tells me going from 215/245 to 245/245 would be too much, and likely to introduce oversteer. Perhaps 225/245 might just be a small but perceptible improvement? Perhaps we can even find 225 tyres that will fit on the current wheels?
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      07-22-2015, 05:20 PM   #35
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      07-22-2015, 05:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH View Post
This is a good discussion, regarding tyre width.

Gut feel though tells me going from 215/245 to 245/245 would be too much, and likely to introduce oversteer. Perhaps 225/245 might just be a small but perceptible improvement? Perhaps we can even find 225 tyres that will fit on the current wheels?

It depends on the awd setup. If the car is mostly rwd 100% like a Porsche and then front wheels start pulling when grip is lost, amg has a fixed 33/67 setup etc, then you need more grip in the back. I feel the i8 electric motor pulls strong and early, which in my opinnion would support a typical Audi like same wheels all around type of setup more.
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      07-23-2015, 01:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirali View Post
Thank you very interesting indeed. Now if only we could get the two cars on a windy track...
I've driven the P85D, and on a road with turns, it would be an easy win for the i8. Not even a particularly twisty one in fact.

I will put up my review after I find it. The P85D is a monster off the traffic lights though. NOTHING will touch it.
lol wut

Driven a PDK Turbo S before? Makes the p85 D dual motor feel like a slug from a dead stop.

Tesla has cool tech but these are far from performance cars yet. Hopefully in the future they can pair better and lighter batteries to a lightened chassis. Nobody really cares about 0-60 anymore and that's the only decent performance attribute of that car at this point.
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      07-23-2015, 02:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirali View Post
I believe it, but did you listen to the noise? I mean the total lack of noise? Like the utter and beautiful quiet?
Are you daring to suggest my Lotus is too noisy?

It is a place of serene and peaceful calm I will have you know...





......or perhaps not
That is a really awesome two perspective! These are the correct places to mount your gopro.
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      07-23-2015, 02:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
^^^^^

Ok. I appreciate the effort of the post but there are so many things wrong with this. In the first race it seems that the i8 didn't know it was beginning. I understand that the Tesla launches hard but the difference in 0-60 times between these cars doesn't speak to that type of drubbing.

I'd like to see the two race with BOTH using launch control at a real track...not a street venue. Until I see this, the rest is just noise.

Pls keep in mind that the P85D is a fine piece of engineering and I considered one as a sedan but I don't consider it to be competition for the i8. Additionally as a "racing machine" I kind of view it as the old Buick Grand National GNX...it's great up to 130 or so. In order to NEVER lose to one I simply won't race his/her race.

I discourage people from racing my M6 with the following phrase: Sure I'll race you... rolling start, 100mph to 200mph, winner gets $5000. It's amazing how much bravado is deflated with those few words.

Cheers-MK
You guys are crazy.. First off, this is the "old" P85D, which was recently updated to produce more power and with better cooling so it is no longer limited as the OP stated.

The updated Tesla P85D is 2.8s 0-60. End of story. i8, and frankly any car, will take a serious drubbing.

So everyone that's pointing to the fact that the i8 is a sports car, with Honda Civic width tires, while the P85 is not... Then what's the i8s Nurburgring time ??
“This car is not about the race track,” says i8 project director Dr Carsten Breitfeld. Oh, I see...
So it's just a nice looking 2 seater that gets smoked in a straight line by a family hauler/grocery getter and isn't designed for the race track.
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      07-23-2015, 02:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH
I had a one hour test drive of the Tesla Model S, P85D version recently at the Canary Wharf Motor Expo.

The P85D is the most powerful Tesla, and has an additional motor on the front axle, as well as the rear motor the other Model S cars have. It is therefore 4WD.

The car was left hand drive and appeared fully loaded with options.

Looking at the car, it is attractive and very wide and long. Quality of body and paint work is not premium however, and is below the standard on modern Skodas.

The boot is huge, and in fact big enough to install 2 small rear facing seats in it. The front storage compartment is in fact around the same size as an i3's boot! This car is big.

Legroom is also huge, front and rear. In fact, with the driver's seat fully back, I could only just fully depress the accelerator pedal. However, for a 5 seater big family car, it has a major, and fatal, flaw. Rear headroom is lacking, to the point where my head was hitting the roof - albeit it is better than in the rear of the i8. However, the i8 is a 2+2, not a full 5 (7) seater family car.

The problem is that the Tesla has a badly designed sloping roofline. A terrible idea in a large family car, and truly a case of form over function. Combined with the rear seat being high due to the batteries underneath, it results in inadequate rear headroom.

Sitting in the front, the car is comfortable, spacious and airy. The large tablet style touch screen in the centre looks odd and out of place. Flashy yes, but it makes the car seems gimmicky. The instrument display is fine though.

The interior trim is cheap and flimsy, and not befitting a car in this price range. Nowhere near the quality of even the i3, never mind the i8.

This car had a lot of options, and I liked the height adjustable suspension feature a lot. I wish my i8 had this.

From discussion with Tesla, I would estimate that the real world range of the large battery version of the car, is under 200 miles when driven under similar conditions as my i3 REx test, which gave 79 miles range (i3 BEV estimated range 85 miles). A driver could reasonably extend each of these ranges by 20% if deliberately driving in a frugal manner and in eco mode.

Moving off, the Tesla is smooth, quiet and powerful. It immediately feels very nice indeed to drive. And just as calming and relaxing as the i3 and i8 (in e-drive).

The steering is extremely light, which suits the car. Putting the steering in Sport mode achieves nothing more than making it a little too heavy, as it still offers no true feedback whatsoever - in common with most other modern cars.

The P85D has a well publicised INSANE mode and I left the car in this mode the entire time. This affects the power delivery and basically gives you maximum power (and minimum range).

Moving off is astonishing At the traffic light Grand Prix, if you accelerate fully, it is quicker than any other car I have driven, unless you use launch control in a combustion car with 4WD.

I had so much fun moving off from the lights. Even motorbikes could barely get rolling by the time the Tesla was 3-4 car lengths ahead. It feels more powerful moving from stationary than when accelerating from a rolling start in fact, because of the instant maximum torque afforded by electric motors.

The manner of acceleration from standstill is similar to the i3 and i8, but more pronounced at the point of moving off, because it is all electric (unlike i8), very powerful, and you get 100% of the torque immediately. Simply fantastic! And I could not get enough of trying its acceleration. It also feels very fast because it moves off so silently, unlike the i8 in Sports mode.

Unlike the P85, the P85D did not have enough torque to spin its wheels on a straight dry road whilst moving. No doubt this was due to its 4WD system.

The acceleration is the single biggest selling point of this car, for me.

I should mention though that I had a long drive in my S1 Exige SC CC the next day, and truthfully, the Exige is far more "insane" that the P85D in insane mode.

The big downside of the Tesla though is that it is over 2 tonnes, and it feels heavy too. Furthermore, it can only run at maximum power for 15 seconds before it has to reduce power! This was confirmed by Tesla to me, and is due to massive heat being generated in the batteries when under maximum power. Its glycol cooling system cannot cope with so much heat at once. In real world driving, this is unlikely to be an issue however.

Grip levels are reasonable, and the car is well balanced when turning. However, under very hard acceleration it transfers so much of its massive weight to the rear that steering response is significantly reduced, and it feels less willing to turn. The P85D was better than the P85 in this respect though, and was also assisted by the fact I drove it mostly at minimum ride height.

It corners with little roll, thanks to its low centre of gravity. This is a heavy car though, and needs to be driven as such. It is not a car to throw around twisty roads. However, its massive power and acceleration do make you wish it were more nimble in its handling.

I did manage to cause it to break traction on a tight fast turn, and its behaviour was to slide the rear wheels a little before quickly stabilising through the electronics. It is very easy to drive with an ability to provoke slight oversteer if you try.

Overall, it is an impressive car that is very nice and enjoyable to drive. In P85D guise, it is also extremely quick, to the point where I cannot think of any car that will beat it off the lights up to around 40mph (not counting launch control activated runs in combustion cars). The fatal flaw in the car however is the rear headroom, which is unacceptable in a family 5/7 seater car.
If that car rolled over one would be decapitated. One good thing about German cars. In my Cayman S Porsche I have plenty of headroom. One's head should sit below the side pillar of the driver's side and passenger's side. If your head is at or above the side pillar then consider your head the car pillar in a roll over accident (not good).
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      07-23-2015, 03:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kip1
I am pretty sure that the i8 doesnt go with lc...
The Tesla also doesn't have LC - just mash the pedal and goooooooooo!
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      07-23-2015, 03:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
You guys are crazy.. First off, this is the "old" P85D, which was recently updated to produce more power and with better cooling so it is no longer limited as the OP stated.

The updated Tesla P85D is 2.8s 0-60. End of story. i8, and frankly any car, will take a serious drubbing.

So everyone that's pointing to the fact that the i8 is a sports car, with Honda Civic width tires, while the P85 is not... Then what's the i8s Nurburgring time ??
“This car is not about the race track,” says i8 project director Dr Carsten Breitfeld. Oh, I see...
So it's just a nice looking 2 seater that gets smoked in a straight line by a family hauler/grocery getter and isn't designed for the race track.


Tesla says the upgraded P85D will sprint the quarter in 10.9s. The i8 runs in the mid 12's. The i8 is a beautiful two-seat hybrid sports car, but the P85D is just a freak of nature.
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      07-23-2015, 03:24 PM   #43
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I can attest to the Tesla going into limp mode but it took closer to 5 min of heavy use then it cut power to about 60% (still 400hp?) until it could cool the batteries. Not a track car as stated, the cornering is incredible for what it is but lacks the feel of any BMW and the rear headroom is fine for me and I'm 6'1". The centre screen makes my BMW feel like it's a dinosaur.

Only reason to compare P85D and i8 is that they are both pioneering innovative cars. Can't really compare performance.
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      07-23-2015, 05:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yw View Post
Tesla has been a trail blazer for the electric car industry and has led other manufactures to either follow or to take serious notice.

As JasH and Epirali discerningly observed, the interior appointment and design of their vehicles fall significantly short for what they're priced at. While I haven't test driven any of Tesla's sedans, I did have a go at it with their then newly introduced roadster. The roadster's interior felt spartan but perhaps purposeful by design. While it was quick off the line, the roadster exhibited a surprising amount of body sway despite not being pushed to the limit (a surprising disappointment for a short wheel based chassis). But the disconcerting experience came when I decided to press the entertainment button only to see the entire dash begin to flex under the slight pressure from an index finger. The thought, warranted or not, began to occur as to whether Tesla's weight saving measures had come at the expense of nonstructural parts such as the dashboard's rigidity. Unfortunately, the flimsy dashboard left me with an indelible and disappointed impression of my Tesla experience.

That being said, I look forward to the day when Tesla takes notice to improve on the overall design and upgrade of its vehicle interior.
I like the Tesla interior more than most though I agree it's not up to the German luxury brands in material quality. I like the minimalism. BMW and Mercedes have become more fussy than I'd like though overall I'd agree they're better.

When Tesla designed the car they were aiming for lower price points. They originally offered a 40 model for pre-order but sold so few that the rare 40 models were detuned 60s. The 60 itself didn't do well and has been dropped. Customers want range and it was eventually dropped. This isn't to excuse a so-so interior on car that can easily and often is optioned over $100k but the history is valuable. I hope Tesla's next gen model S is better or offers a better option package.

I will say I like the infotainment screen. There's a case for physical buttons but the Tesla is screen is intuitive and fast. Easy to get to any control in the car.
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