[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

A dedicated EV platform only goes so far. Taycan has a dedicated EV platform.

Taycan is also optimized for a totally different audience. The extra performance costs in weight. Creature comforts also cost in weight.

Here, on the other hand, we are looking at two cars competing in the same market segment, with comparable price points and performance. I'll grant you that the BMW's interior is nicer, the sound insulation, from what I read in reviews, is also better, and those things do add weight. However, it should not be a 1000lbs difference. 200-400lbs - sure. The only explanation for the remaining 600-800lbs is that the G26 must not fall apart when you take out the battery and the motors and stick a regular engine, its transmission, cooling, and exhaust in that same body instead.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

The only explanation for the remaining 600-800lbs is that the G26 must not fall apart when you take out the battery and the motors and stick a regular engine, its transmission, cooling, and exhaust in that same body instead.

To paraphrase your point, the 600-800lbs provide extra margin to support reliability, availability, and serviceability.

In a way, that is what a company like BMW has an edge over Tesla.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by The J-Man

2The ICE cars today are the best ICE cars that mankind has ever produced.

I am looking forward to seeing what mild-hybrid can do on a 330i, which already is 40+mpg@comfort.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

To paraphrase your point, the 600-800lbs provide extra margin to support reliability, availability, and serviceability.

In a way, that is what a company like BMW has an edge over Tesla.

Right. If I write a piece of code that needs to interface with two different systems, it will always be more reliable and serviceable than the code I would've written if there had been only one system to interface with.

Makes perfect sense.

[Chrisss_GER]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

When will i4/iX be shipped in non-US markets? Since electric drivetrain production has started, does it mean EU Q3/Q4 delivery will be possible?

The german BMW website says "The BMW i4 can be ordered from mid-2021 and will be delivered from the end of 2021."

The BMW press website says in an article "Market launch from November 2021 with two model variants"

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Right. If I write a piece of code that needs to interface with two different systems, it will always be more reliable and serviceable than the code I would've written if there had been only one system to interface with.

Makes perfect sense.

System folks usually think differently. Just saying.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

A dedicated EV platform only goes so far.

Maybe BMW will eventually get to a dedicated EV platform, but the current offering of a shared(EV/ICE) platform is quite interesting.

I am looking forward to tech talks of the engineering trade-offs to make this work.

[Chrisss_GER]

From this angle, the car looks like it is hovering lol
Looks weird

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by dollardollarbill

I have no doubt the i4 will have better NVH, driving dynamics, and interior quality than Ford/Tesla. But BMW has long talked up lightweighting with CLAR, materials, etc. What gives? Is there really that big of a weight penalty using a non-dedicated EV platform?

Non-dedicated EV platform definitely is a major factor.
There is still central tunnel, and large hump at the rear (fuel tank for ICE?) which are not needed in EV.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by adc

Very informative discussion, keep it going.

Can someone with Tesla real life experience comment on the level of service, parts availability etc? I am a complete T newbie.


The idea of a nice, quick, daily EV and a Cayman GT4 for track fun is increasingly attractive. These EVs have got to be horrendous on track consumables, and you need to worry about warranty and related wear and tear.

You should visit the online Tesla forums to get a sense of the owner experience when it comes to service, parts, responsiveness, etc. Based on what I've seen, I personally would not be willing to live with the way Tesla operates or treats its customers. I'm also not willing to take delivery of my new car armed with a long checklist to see how many known defects my new car has. And if the car I ordered no longer has certain features because of a global parts shortage, I want the company to tell me and maybe compensate me for the change instead of spinning it as an improvement. But to each his own.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Not really cause the 240 from BMW are probably more like 160

I suspect BMW tested their car in a variety of conditions and the claimed range probably accounts for some level of variance, but I could be wrong.

[adc]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Non-dedicated EV platform definitely is a major factor.
There is still central tunnel, and large hump at the rear (fuel tank for ICE?) which are not needed in EV.

Looking at this, the central tunnel everyone is pointing at cannot add more than 50lbs in weight, in itself. It houses components which otherwise would have been put elsewhere, not deleted from the car. It would be interesting to compare body in white weights for both cars and I doubt again that’s where the major difference would be found.

There has to be something else to account for the extra weight, and I’m not making excuses for BMW.

[BimmerBahn]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Non-dedicated EV platform definitely is a major factor.
There is still central tunnel, and large hump at the rear (fuel tank for ICE?) which are not needed in EV.

fuel tank doesn't sit that high in an ICE. If you're familiar with current BMW ICE's, you'd know that the 12V battery sits in the back, under the boot floor, along with other things...it's also a space for storage since there isn't a spare tire anymore.

The HV/LV power and liquid cooling lines have to run somewhere. Personally, I'd rather them secured and protected in the middle vs routed along the perimeter of the skateboard.... more protection from impact and increases serviceability.

They probably could've dropped the hump if they hadn't added the additional cells... but I'm guessing it made more sense to increase battery capacity vs figuring out how to best route all the wires/hoses to remove the hump.

[Jason]

First official promo video spot.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Not really cause the 240 from BMW are probably more like 160

Almost every EV out there can regularly hit it's range. Many of the Germans exceed it. Porsche, for example, has their EPA rating of the Taycan 4S / Turbo / Turbo S down around 210 miles. Yet it's easy to achieve 260 miles plus in a 4S, on the highway.

So I'd bet it's pretty close.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by adc

Very informative discussion, keep it going.

Can someone with Tesla real life experience comment on the level of service, parts availability etc? I am a complete T newbie.


The idea of a nice, quick, daily EV and a Cayman GT4 for track fun is increasingly attractive. These EVs have got to be horrendous on track consumables, and you need to worry about warranty and related wear and tear.

Like all things Tesla, it's a crap shoot. Sometimes great, other times not so good.

I live in an area with two service centers, so that's good. But now that they have so many cars, it's almost impossible to get a loaner. So you get Uber credits. Oh wow, color me not excited. And when you do get a loaner, it's filthy and usually an old squeaky Model S lease return.

As far as parts, again, sometimes they are in stock, other times not. When they're not in stock, the service department usually has no clue when they will come. They schedule you, then keep bumping your appointment at the last minute. The best you can hope for is Mobile Service, formerly known as the ranger. Those guys are usually awesome, and nothing beats having them come to your house on a Saturday to fix your car!

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

A Model 3 + 718 S family here (and a friend's GT4 is parked in the driveway whenever he gets hungry or wants a company to watch the Bruins kicking Ovechkin's ass). Though for us it's autocross, not track.

This combo is working really well for us. I daily drive the Tesla, my wife takes it for longer and/or bad weather drives if I don't need it, so the Porsche gets something like 3K miles a year while the Tesla is closer to 16K. This is without commute - we wfh. The funny part in this arrangement is that my wife claims to hate the Tesla for its lack of soul but still drives it whenever the situation can be too "stressful" for the pampered Porsche.

I've had the Tesla for a bit less than 3 years. In that time I went to the service center 5 times:
1. Soon after taking delivery, to get the driver's door adjusted. Back then (2018) Tesla outsourced body work so it took about a week.
2. A year ago a window regulator failed and was replaced.
3-5. Same issue: front upper control arms. It's a known problem of 2017-2018 Model 3s that was resolved in later builds. It took three visits because one time the noise went away right when I dropped it off (the issue is humidity/temperature dependent).

For visits 1, 2, and 4 I had a loaner, my wife picked me up at visit 3, and I simply waited an hour at the last visit. In all cases I was able to schedule the service 5-10 days out, and the car didn't spend any extra time in the shop waiting for anything. I also had a two year maintenance at one of those visits (the only thing I had to pay for), and some interior squeaks and a sticking horn were taken care of at another visit.

Comparing to my previous car (F31), over the same period of time I had a few more issues but fewer visits because less maintenance. My BMW dealership was also stingier on loaners than Tesla is.

Model 3 Performance / 997.2 Turbo S combo here. Similar split as well. My wife doesn't mind when I ask her to take the Tesla to work, since she has a profile set. However, she didn't understand why I complained so much about the suspension until I took her to a Taycan launch event. She was like "ok, now I get it". And I was like "well, yeah, you're talking Tesla vs. a dedicated Porsche sports sedan suspension with adjustable shocks and air springs". That's about as big of a difference as you can get.

If I don't ditch the Tesla for an Polstar 2 or an i4, it's definitely getting some coilovers.

[khailuan]

After watching the promo video for the i4 M50, that car is really growing on me. Tbh, for an electric vehicule with it's good looks (yes it looks sexier everytime I stare at it), power figures and everything that comes with a BMW (driving dynamics, reliability, quality) I thought they would price it higher. With the gov't incentives, I might actually be able to afford this.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by adc

Looking at this, the central tunnel everyone is pointing at cannot add more than 50lbs in weight, in itself. It houses components which otherwise would have been put elsewhere, not deleted from the car. It would be interesting to compare body in white weights for both cars and I doubt again that’s where the major difference would be found.

There has to be something else to account for the extra weight, and I’m not making excuses for BMW.

Keeping the whole top structure(with the tunnel and gas tank ******* likely adds extra weight. Unlike Tesla, the BMW battery packs appear to be not part of the chassis, hence extra structure is needed for rigidity and safety(does the 2nd structure show reinforcement column along the length of the car?).

E-Tron/Taycan adds reinforced collision frame around the battery partitions.

Tesla's approach is to use the metal jackets of 6000+ cells packed together as integral part of chassis. That saves weight at the expense of safety margin.

[jgrgnt]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Model 3 Performance / 997.2 Turbo S combo here. Similar split as well. My wife doesn't mind when I ask her to take the Tesla to work, since she has a profile set. However, she didn't understand why I complained so much about the suspension until I took her to a Taycan launch event. She was like "ok, now I get it". And I was like "well, yeah, you're talking Tesla vs. a dedicated Porsche sports sedan suspension with adjustable shocks and air springs". That's about as big of a difference as you can get.

If I don't ditch the Tesla for an Polstar 2 or an i4, it's definitely getting some coilovers.

Yeah, I highly recommend coilovers. I went with the MPP Sports and UP sway bars, and I'm pleased with how my Performance 3 rides and handles now. The stock suspension was ridiculously soft.

[jgrgnt]

Originally Posted by adc

Very informative discussion, keep it going.

Can someone with Tesla real life experience comment on the level of service, parts availability etc? I am a complete T newbie.


The idea of a nice, quick, daily EV and a Cayman GT4 for track fun is increasingly attractive. These EVs have got to be horrendous on track consumables, and you need to worry about warranty and related wear and tear.

Depends on where you live. In my area (SoCal), there are 5 Tesla service centers within a 30 minute drive, so next-day appointments are doable. Mobile Service availability is also pretty good--usually same week, or maybe a couple of days out. Loaner availability depends on the service center, but in general, Uber credits are the norm. Overall, the service experience and wait times in my area are on par with what I experienced with BMW. Again, this will vary by region.

As for parts, availability seems to have improved. Three years ago, I waited a month for some rubber door seals for our Model X. Now, if a part isn't in stock, the service center will email you status updates twice a week until the part comes in. In the last year, I've never had to wait more than 1 week for a part.

[bavarianride]

Is there any released tech info of driver assist/self driving tech of i4/iX?

I do wonder if that huge grill serves any functional purpose, e.g. a massive sensor array or something.