[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by IcemanNorway

With 125Ah batteries and 400k, let's hope BMW i branch will get rid of the gasoline engine and tank for good.
Use the space in the back where the REX system is for the stuff that is now in front and fit an extra engine in front instead.
A xDrive i3 would be super cool and really needed for the "s" models to get some traction.
Also for safer regenerating in wintertime.

Dig it

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I believe we are there already:
- Model S for "premium" EV buyers
- Everything else for "budget" category.

Sadly, i3 is neither here, nor there.

It's priced as "premium" EV, but its sub-sub-compact size and range belongs squarely in the "budget" category.
Even there, it is becoming less and less competitive, as other "budget" offerings are coming out with longer range and better acceleration (Bolt later this year, Model 3 early next year).

Tesla is something else. It's not for car lovers. It's for the rich progressive guys who loves Apple and had a crush on Steve Jobs. Now Elon Musk is their new hero.

It's not as small as you think. I'm a tall guy and I can easily fit in the back seat. The luggage space is also quite big and practical with the big opening.

In Sweden the i3 is less than half the price of the Model S. You can get one with almost all options for $46k. A Model S is like $125k. And since our currency has lost like 48% to the USD in 3 years it makes the Tesla super expensive.

My monthly cost for the i3 is on par with a used car in the $15k-$20k bracket. Around $500 a month. Or even less. Yes, a Nissan Leaf would be even cheaper but not by that much.

Originally Posted by afadeev

Absolutely true, but if 340i was the size and had the acceleration of a plain vanilla MINI cooper, they wouldn't.

The i3 is actually in many ways faster than the 340i around town and that's the primary use of it. It's not supposed to be the only car. It's a car you use to and around the city. And in the city I can't think of a car I'd rather drive than the i3. It's just brilliant.

Originally Posted by afadeev

I'm not trying to engage in theoretical discussion, just reconciling EV sales #s with our theories:
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

I've also owned BMWs for 20+ years (starting with E30s), but never exclusively, nor fanatically.

Unfortunately, BMWs have slipped behind Tesla in terms of "coolness" and technology edge.
By a huge margin.

Perhaps but I really hope the i5 becomes a "Tesla killer". You're right though. I can't understand why the traditional car makers were so slow off the mark on this. It's obvious that the future belongs to the EV.

Originally Posted by afadeev

Take a look at what Model S has done to the US large luxury sedan sales. That market has remained largely stagnant over the past 3-4 years at ~100-120K units, but Model S's has gained market share to ~50% at the expense of all other makes and models, including Merc's S-class and BMW's 7-series.
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/10/16...n-q3-us-sales/

Same story in Europe:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin.../#2c8a78cb7588

Anyone wants to bet against Model 3 doing something similar to 3-series and i3 over the next few years?

We'll see. Tesla must be able to build all those cars in a very short time. I don't think it's that easy. Tesla is for me just a company that's designed to create a revolution in the car industry. Not take over.

Originally Posted by afadeev

I do see replacing BMW's with Tesla's over the next few years.
If that happens, it will be 100% BMW's fault for sitting on its ass and not providing a technologically competitive product offering.
And for having become less "cool" then Tesla.

a

We'll see what happens but I think all major European car makers are working on EVs now. They will be a few years behind Tesla though, that's true. But sometimes the tortoise beats the hare. Tesla is still to make a profit while BMW is very profitable. Who's a winner in the long run? Don't know.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Tesla is something else. It's not for car lovers. It's for the rich progressive guys who loves Apple and had a crush on Steve Jobs. Now Elon Musk is their new hero.

It's not as small as you think. I'm a tall guy and I can easily fit in the back seat. The luggage space is also quite big and practical with the big opening.

In Sweden the i3 is less than half the price of the Model S. You can get one with almost all options for $46k. A Model S is like $125k. And since our currency has lost like 48% to the USD in 3 years it makes the Tesla super expensive.

My monthly cost for the i3 is on par with a used car in the $15k-$20k bracket. Around $500 a month. Or even less. Yes, a Nissan Leaf would be even cheaper but not by that much.

The i3 is actually in many ways faster than the 340i around town and that's the primary use of it. It's not supposed to be the only car. It's a car you use to and around the city. And in the city I can't think of a car I'd rather drive than the i3. It's just brilliant.

Perhaps but I really hope the i5 becomes a "Tesla killer". You're right though. I can't understand why the traditional car makers were so slow off the mark on this. It's obvious that the future belongs to the EV.

We'll see. Tesla must be able to build all those cars in a very short time. I don't think it's that easy. Tesla is for me just a company that's designed to create a revolution in the car industry. Not take over.

We'll see what happens but I think all major European car makers are working on EVs now. They will be a few years behind Tesla though, that's true. But sometimes the tortoise beats the hare. Tesla is still to make a profit while BMW is very profitable. Who's a winner in the long run? Don't know.

Right I know what your saying, I don't know why people keep calling it a sub compact, it's technically not a sub compact, a mini is compact but the i3 is the same foot print as a 1 / 2 series BMW and don't really here any body call it a compact car. Also the interior space is equivalent to a 3 series with 5 series interior quality. With the leather wrapped dash and cool modern materials.

It's prolly just because people look at it as a hatchback that gets them on the compact car segment. Vehicle packaging can make cars all sort of proportions.

I have a premium small house, only 1000 sq feet but worth 500k so I don't see why people always see size as luxury. I see it as wasted space. If I want lots of space I have outside
Funny thing is tesla doesn't get me excited, it's just a 4 door sedan, that's fast in a straight line.

It's teck is also not leaps and bounds over anybody else really, it's battery teck is also old teck compared to some other ev's

The trucks we design already use over the air updating and programming and have been before tesla started doing it and our products are as old as time.

So when you say their for the non car guy or tech junky looking for another Steve jobs I hear you.

Nobody I know really is all enamored with them and even when we had one for the weekend it was just another car and became bored with it rather fast. But that's me. Others are free to love it and say it's the best as it's just another opinion.

But don't mess with tesla owners it's like shaking a hornets nest. It's a religion with them and they will get mean! Some of them anyway

Here is an interesting read on the batteries

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/16...teries-better/

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

Right I know what your saying, I don't know why people keep calling it a sub compact, it's technically not a sub compact, a mini is compact but the i3 is the same foot print as a 1 / 2 series BMW and don't really here any body call it a compact car.

This raises an interesting question about definitions of "full" vs. "compact" vs. "sub-compact" cars. Something I had never figured out despite dozens of car rental interactions.

EPA defines "sub-compact" as anything shorter than 165 inches (4,191 mm) in length, but larger than "microcar", which is 118 inches (3m or 3,000 mm) in length.

i3's length is 157.4, so it definitely qualifies as a sub-compact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcompact_car

Originally Posted by -c-

Also the interior space is equivalent to a 3 series with 5 series interior quality. With the leather wrapped dash and cool modern materials.

Sorry, i3 is definitely smaller than 3-series in interior space.
Particularly in the back, where i3's legroom and shoulder space are only adequate for kids.

I can tell you from the first hand experience that M3's interior (dash, seats, plastic components) are of much higher quality than i3's. That may be (and likely is) different for base model 320i's, but M3's materials are significantly nicer than anything in i3.
I haven't been in a 5-series in years, so can't comment on that.


For comparison:
.................................................. i3 ................... M3
Headroom (in): ........................ 39.6 ............... 40.3
Legroom, front/rear (in): ......... 40.5 / 31.9..... 42.0 / 35.1
Shoulder room, front/rear (in): 53.6 / 49.2..... 55.1 / 55.1

As a reference point for legroom, most airlines have between 28" - 32" of legroom in economy class. We are talking airline seat experience in the back of an i3.

I also looked at 2-series #s, and they are all larger than i3's in all categories as well.

So i3 is the smallest interior BMW you can buy in the US as of today (i8's numbers are much larger than i3's or M3's in the front, but smaller than i3's in the rear).

This is not to say that i3 is cramped - it is perfectly large enough for adults in the front seats. But the rear passenger space (never mind access) is cramped at best.

Originally Posted by -c-

I have a premium small house, only 1000 sq feet but worth 500k so I don't see why people always see size as luxury. I see it as wasted space. If I want lots of space I have outside

Agreed.

There is nothing wrong with small things - I lived in smaller apartments that your house in NYC, and there is nothing cheap about them
We all chose to buyer smaller cars for a reason, so nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by -c-

Funny thing is tesla [...] not leaps and bounds over anybody else really, it's battery teck is also old teck compared to some other ev's

I was mostly referring to autopilot capabilities, whereby Tesla's gen-1 autopilot is still unmatched by anyone else in the industry.
Meanwhile, Tesla has been rolling out gen-2 autonomous driving hardware since October of 2016. Model 3 will have gen-2 hardware as well.

Not to say that auto-pilot is be-all automotive tech, but it is pretty cool. The fact that Tesla's got it, and BMW and Merc still can't catch up (stuck on Mobileye cameras) is shockingly sad.

Tesla also did manage to package a much higher power density of 250 Watt/kg battery into Model S (started with 117 in Roadster 10 years ago) than BMW with 95 Watt/kg in i3.

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/09...ercialize.html

Originally Posted by -c-

But don't mess with tesla owners it's like shaking a hornets nest. It's a religion with them and they will get mean! Some of them anyway

Very true.
It's impossible to have a critical discussion with that crowd.
Way worse than some V/Bolt fans trolling in this forum...

Originally Posted by -c-

Here is an interesting read on the batteries

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/16...teries-better/

Good read, thanks.

a

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by -c-

Here is an interesting read on the batteries

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/16...teries-better/

The four (4) key variables for comparing batteries were:
- price/kWh (cost)
- kWh/kg (power density)
- kWh/m^3 (power output)
- battery cell longevity

It's interesting that BMW focused on the last one, optimizing projected battery lifespan (20.9 years) at the expense of higher cost and energy density.

It somewhat makes sense that a traditional automaker would do that, but it is otherwise a misguided target. Battery technology is advancing way more rapidly than OEMs are used to, and the customers who still own EVs 5-10 years down the road will be more interested in upgrading to 2x-4x higher density cells, than tracking the level of degradation of the old batteries !

a

[-c-]

Yea I knew you'd throw facts at me .

Basically I was just quoting BMW, they probably based that fact off of cubic feet vs usable space.

The i3 reminds me more of my 1 series for interior space.

The sub compact argument I was getting at was more about just perceived size and the i3 looks rather big compared to other sub compacts and the fact the packaging doesn't need a traditional engine it's shorter but the interior space is not akin to a sub compact in my opinion as I've owned practically every European sub compact in this country so not much .

Basically the smart car and Mini Cooper, fiats and the like. Don't drive Asian make cars so I wouldn't know about them.

The 3 series grand coupe actually feels smaller inside due to its super low roof than the i3 so maybe some of its perceived space.

I know BMW had to have some numbers behind their claim. Maybe the fact they got rid of the center council ..... who knows.

The m3 has nice materials the i3 is different, I like to think of some of the new stuff as "new premium". Truth in materials sort of way vs just more animal grain plastic. And I sort of believe them as when I get a 3 series loaner it's drab and boring compared to the i3. So a M is not your run of the mill 3 series so it's not a fair comparison. .

Otherwise yea I was giving it some thought, I think tesla can get away with running out the autonomous thing earlier than most as it's relatively low numbers than if BMW had a 3 series running around autonomously and they have lots to risk.

To tesla the teck can sells more cars, to BMW it's a possible liability and will take more time to work out the kinks. Plus tesla being smaller has less red tape. It's like how we are working with autonomous trucks and actually have been before tesla came to be but with anything. A multi ton truck on the road carrying goods needs years on top of years before it's ready for prime time. As one bad move and you could kill many many people. And open your self up to untold legal trouble.

Our company is taking it very safe and cautiously and not really wanting to leave anything to chance.

You know as your in the business that every company is different and have their goals set at different levels and their focus is also different. And BMW and the rest will have it in good time and sometimes being the first to market isn't always the best. Hey the guy getting decapitated when the tesla wasn't seeing the trailer is testament to that.

I'd rather a fool proof design come to market and take 10 years longer than a rushed half baked one with flaws just to say were the first and use it as a marketing point.

That wasn't a poke at tesla just a point to make, in the end tesla needs to keep doing what it's doing to keep in the spot light and to keep people interested so it keeps people invested and investing. For a very established company like BMW that is very profitable they can take a little more time as they have a lot to loose if it's not right.

[Kiwi]

Why do we need autonomous vehicle? Surly having people employed driving is better for all.
I don't understand the need to stop employing as no jobs no money to buy vehicles.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Why do we need autonomous vehicle? Surly having people employed driving is better for all.
I don't understand the need to stop employing as no jobs no money to buy vehicles.

It's because of driver shortages, nobody wants to do long hauls anymore. Theirs a need of over 100k jobs needed to fill truck driving positions and that deficit continues to grow.

Going autonomous is just to keep product flowing.


Also we are making it where the driver is still in the vehicle but he can focus on other things.

Think like a road train. The shortage of drivers would be solved and the drivers would be tasked with other duties. So one driver to a couple trucks.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by -c-

It's because of driver shortages, nobody wants to do long hauls anymore. Theirs a need of over 100k jobs needed to fill truck driving positions and that deficit continues to grow.

Going autonomous is just to keep product flowing.


Also we are making it where the driver is still in the vehicle but he can focus on other things.

Think like a road train. The shortage of drivers would be solved and the drivers would be tasked with other duties. So one driver to a couple trucks.

If they are paid more the drivers will be their and lets see the real truth on the shortage of drivers. This would be a great job for females one week driving and one week off. long distance freight should be forced onto to electrified rail.

This is very simplistic autonomous keeps products flowing. Weather is the main factor and this is why electrified rail would be best.

I'm going to enjoy being a driver who forces autonomous cars to give way to me.

We need jobs for our future children not robots.

England believes by the year 3000 30% of todays jobs will not be required. So hows that going to help our young.

How is this great for the world we live in.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

If they are paid more the drivers will be their and lets see the real truth on the shortage of drivers. This would be a great job for females one week driving and one week off. long distance freight should be forced onto to electrified rail.

This is very simplistic autonomous keeps products flowing. Weather is the main factor and this is why electrified rail would be best.

I'm going to enjoy being a driver who forces autonomous cars to give way to me.

We need jobs for our future children not robots.

England believes by the year 3000 30% of todays jobs will not be required. So hows that going to help our young.

How is this great for the world we live in.

Not my problem ! That's up to the companies and how much you as the customer want to pay for the shipped goods.

Some shipping companies pay pretty well and give good benefits but many people don't want the long hours and being away from families for long periods of time.

Stop spouting off bullshit you know nothing about!

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by -c-

Not my problem ! That's up to the companies and how much you as the customer want to pay for the shipped goods.

Some shipping companies pay pretty well and give good benefits but many people don't want the long hours and being away from families for long periods of time.

Stop spouting off bullshit you know nothing about!

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Let's not fight anymore worlds shitty enough.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by -c-

Let's not fight anymore worlds shitty enough.

Agree

[1230vani]

SCOTT26 can you please let us know one small detail. Is i3s going to have carbon schwartz color, pretty please.