[Flying Ace]

Great car, but there's no way I can stomach the deprecation on this...

[veylan]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Great car, but there's no way I can stomach the deprecation on this...

Yeah. One of the things I told the BMW rep that called me to check in (BMW NA) was that they needed to announce an ongoing update path for software and hardware during this transition. Otherwise: smart move making the car so recyclable.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Great car, but there's no way I can stomach the deprecation on this...

Well you can look at it two ways, you can be excited for the depreciation and buy it second hand, that way you get a stellar car for under 20k with very low mileage that will also never rust or corrode! Well that just mattered if your in the rust belt. But yea I was an early adopter and bought a fully loaded one, don't care really as I plan to keep it for over 20 years and it's funky enough I'm not bored with it. But on the other hand if I had taken the extra 20g off a depreciated one and invested it in a few investments I made last year the car would have been free.

[raysspl]

The higher storage density & economies of scale definitely helped make this happen

[hotrod182]

I seem to be reading a lot of the same complaints and hopes for improvement on here that I personally have.

More powerful battery. If this was Tesla, they would take advantage of that and extract more HP from the motor. BMW say's acceleration is subjectively "virtually the same." So with the heavier battery, this car is actually slower now???

This is like BMW doing the LCI on the 335i to a 340i, and saying the gas tank is bigger, but the car is slower. And without the usual improvements/addition of front LED turn signals, DRL design, tail lights, front bumper, etc. The i3 gets none of this?? And instead of more HP of the 340i vs the 335i, the i3 gets worse performance AND efficiency? I would gladly have traded in a little range if the bigger battery provided more acceleration. Or a dual motor M-Sport version. Why should the i3 be one of the slowest BMW's out there? The average V6 Camry/Accord will beat the i3 in the 0-60 run. If the i3 can't compete with the other 200 mile BEVs on range coming out next year, then at least elevate its BMW dynamics and acceleration to a higher class. As it is now, the BOLT is suppose to run around 7 seconds flat, and the model 3 will beat that. If the BMW was faster/sportier, at least some people would still be in the market for it. There are more people looking for a good looking, longer range, quick accelerating BEV, than those that are interested in having a car because it is one of the most efficient, sustainable BEVs you can buy.

The car is also long overdue on the following:

Improving the cheap/simple ATARI quality drivers instrument cluster to match the look/design of the tech-package I-drive screen, etc.

The door/dash panel material (Kenef?), is the subject of many complaints from the general target market. People believe a car of this price should wow them with technology, performance, and luxury. You get in a 6 series GC, and the interior design, and materials exudes luxury. The i3 on the other hand looks like the door panels are turned inside out. With the unfinished side showing.

A waterproof FRUNK, with more usable storage area.

Expanded rear cargo storage area for the BEV, that has extra space when not equipped the gas range extender.

Ability to see ambient temp, odometer, MPGe on the driver's cluster without having to be distracted with toggling to find the information you seek.

Quicker throttle response off the line, Even compared to a LEAF with its instant throttle response, the i3 is very muted. I like performance, and the i3 is exciting to drive, but I just with it had a little more. And after 50mph, the i3 acceleration is much worse than the Mercedes B class BEV. The Merc weighs 1000lbs more, only has a few more HP, and yet traps around 6mph faster in the qtr mile!

BMW Marketing/Engineers, are you listening????
Please, offer these improvements soon if you want buyers to be interested in the i3 still. Don't let the 200 mile BOLT be just as quick as the i3 for less money.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

I really don't get why they need to desperately try to sell this car as "sporty". I could understand it with the i8, which at least looks like a sports car even if it doesn't drive like one.

But the i3? That is just laughable. Yes of course, the instant torque of the electric engine obviously gives you good acceleration figures under certain circumstances, but WTF has this to do with being "sporty"? Maybe the next step is putting an "M" badge on it, just to underline the marketing efforts.

And yeah, 114 miles (and 4h charging) still means you can't use it as an only car and it will be limited to upper-class urban hipsters that use it as a third car for city trips. Very sustainable that is...and I'm not even mentioning the electricity it consumes coming from anything but sustainable sources.

To me the whole electric-only car stuff is an aberration invented by goodie-goodies with no thought for the daily practicalities most people who need a car are actually faced with.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Great car, but there's no way I can stomach the deprecation on this...

Hello leasing !
$300/month for i3 - $200/month gas savings = why not !

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

It is all about the 0-30/40 in city driving. Not much else compares.

The politicians dropped 'Da City speed limit down to 25, so it's 0-25 in the city, or 25-75 on the highway. Not much in between.

Originally Posted by hotrod182

BMW Marketing/Engineers, are you listening????
Please, offer these improvements soon if you want buyers to be interested in the i3 still. Don't let the 200 mile BOLT be just as quick as the i3 for less money.

No, they are not.
See i3 2.0 feature-spec release notes, and 1.0 sales #s:
http://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1158419&page=3

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I really don't get why they need to desperately try to sell this car as "sporty".

Because the customers want it that way!
i3's are not only sold to slow-pot tree huggers, but also to car guys who like cool tech.
The latter see multitude of handling and performance deficiencies with i3 that "sport package" and "more torque" could alleviate.

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

To me the whole electric-only car stuff is an aberration invented by goodie-goodies with no thought for the daily practicalities most people who need a car are actually faced with.

Sounds like a fair representation of German car industry's general attitude towards EV market.
Keep it up, and Tesla will buy you out in a few years!

a

[ORIGIN M.]

IF you are doing only 0-25, that is on you.

Originally Posted by afadeev

Hello leasing !
$300/month for i3 - $200/month gas savings = why not !



The politicians dropped 'Da City speed limit down to 25, so it's 0-25 in the city, or 25-75 on the highway. Not much in between.



No, they are not.
See i3 2.0 feature-spec release notes, and 1.0 sales #s:
http://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1158419&page=3



Because the customers want it that way!
i3's are not only sold to slow-pot tree huggers, but also to car guys who like cool tech.
The latter see multitude of handling and performance deficiencies with i3 that "sport package" and "more torque" could alleviate.



Sounds like a fair representation of German car industry's general attitude towards EV market.
Keep it up, and Tesla will buy you out in a few years!

a

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

To me the whole electric-only car stuff is an aberration invented by goodie-goodies with no thought for the daily practicalities most people who need a car are actually faced with.

Spoken like someone who's never actually owned or used one!

Many multi-car families can use an EV on a daily basis without any charging headaches. All that is needed to fit this model is for one of the drivers to have a daily need that can be satisfied by the EV. My wife and I have been using a Chevy Volt as our daily driver since 2012 and we run it almost exclusively on battery. Our daily driving requirements are relatively small. We just plug it in overnight when we get home. Some folks might also plug it in when they get to work. When we need to make a longer trip, we will use a different vehicle with an ICE.

But the EV is the one that works for us as a daily driver. Daily driver - just plug it in when we get home. With 200+ mile ranges in many (non-BMW) EV's, that model is now encompassing more and more families.

Lots of folks are comparing the i3 to the more expensive Tesla line. But please believe me when I say the i3 would not be a trade up from a simple Chevy Volt in ANY category... And I can drive the Volt from Coast-to-Coast just stopping for GAS if I wanted to...

[plymjack]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Spoken like someone who's never actually owned or used one!

Many multi-car families can use an EV on a daily basis without any charging headaches. All that is needed to fit this model is for one of the drivers to have a daily need that can be satisfied by the EV. My wife and I have been using a Chevy Volt as our daily driver since 2012 and we run it almost exclusively on battery. Our daily driving requirements are relatively small. We just plug it in overnight when we get home. Some folks might also plug it in when they get to work. When we need to make a longer trip, we will use a different vehicle with an ICE.

But the EV is the one that works for us as a daily driver. Daily driver - just plug it in when we get home. With 200+ mile ranges in many (non-BMW) EV's, that model is now encompassing more and more families.

Lots of folks are comparing the i3 to the more expensive Tesla line. But please believe me when I say the i3 would not be a trade up from a simple Chevy Volt in ANY category... And I can drive the Volt from Coast-to-Coast just stopping for GAS if I wanted to...

Indeed, Here in the UK most people only have 1 car, but over in the US they often own 2 or 3 - and it makes perfect sense for that to be an EV.
We have the i3 which is perfect for own daily use. QUICK and easy and cheap to run. It might not look "good" but it is very fun & functional.

Paired with our X3 we have a great combination, so no I would not drive the i3 across Europe (yet) but it works for us now.

If you dont like it then fine, and if you want to wait for the next Tesla great - but you are missing out on a gem of a car.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by plymjack

If you dont like it then fine, and if you want to wait for the next Tesla great - but you are missing out on a gem of a car.

BMW i3 - the ultimate driving EV
(while you wait on your Model 3). *



a

[DRTMGRT]

Comparing Tesla to BMW's EV range is growing harder by the minute. Tesla has just lost lost two heads of production and is seemingly plagued by issues that creates delays.

We all agree BMW's i program has a lot to improve on, but will get better in time.

It's like me having the schematics for a time machine and having no ability to produce one.

I like that tesla's tenacity is driving the competition. From the looks of it, they are in desperate need for a partner.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Spoken like someone who's never actually owned or used one!

That is a really stupid comment. You don't know me at all, how would you have any idea which cars I've owned or driven?

I have had both the i8 and the i3 for a week-end, so yes I do know them. Even if I didn't, I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. So stop being patronising to people you have no clue about.

Originally Posted by evanevery

Many multi-car families

That was exactly my point. Many people - at least where I live - can't afford more than one car in a family.

Of those who do, many commute quite a bit and even if they have two cars need both to be entirely usable. That is not the case for any EV due to the lack of infrastructure and the length of time it takes to charge one when it's empty.

Plus they are exponentially more expensive than a fuel-based vehicle, and that's even without speaking about depreciation and long-term technical reliability, which is entirely unknown.

And yeah, getting an EV for your ecological conscience is just as stupid as long as the electricity it uses comes from fossile fuels.

So no, I'm not convinced at all. Right now an EV is something for people with more money than brains and the need for green posturing.

Originally Posted by evanevery

can use an EV on a daily basis without any charging headaches. All that is needed to fit this model is for one of the drivers to have a daily need that can be satisfied by the EV. My wife and I have been using a Chevy Volt as our daily driver since 2012 and we run it almost exclusively on battery. Our daily driving requirements are relatively small. We just plug it in overnight when we get home. Some folks might also plug it in when they get to work. When we need to make a longer trip, we will use a different vehicle with an ICE.

That's just the point. With a normal car you don't need an additional car as you can use it for all your needs. A normal family can't afford to buy several cars, one for each "need" they have. And while an EV may work fine for you, that's not the case at all for 99% of the population (at least in Europe). Please drive to the rural US outside of the big urban areas and ask 200 random people to get an EV. Maybe the answers you get will be some kind of reality check for you.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

That is a really stupid comment. You don't know me at all, how would you have any idea which cars I've owned or driven?

I have had both the i8 and the i3 for a week-end, so yes I do know them. Even if I didn't, I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. So stop being patronising to people you have no clue about.

That was exactly my point. Many people - at least where I live - can't afford more than one car in a family.

Of those who do, many commute quite a bit and even if they have two cars need both to be entirely usable. That is not the case for any EV due to the lack of infrastructure and the length of time it takes to charge one when it's empty.

Plus they are exponentially more expensive than a fuel-based vehicle, and that's even without speaking about depreciation and long-term technical reliability, which is entirely unknown.

And yeah, getting an EV for your ecological conscience is just as stupid as long as the electricity it uses comes from fossile fuels.

So no, I'm not convinced at all. Right now an EV is something for people with more money than brains and the need for green posturing.

That's just the point. With a normal car you don't need an additional car as you can use it for all your needs. A normal family can't afford to buy several cars, one for each "need" they have. And while an EV may work fine for you, that's not the case at all for 99% of the population (at least in Europe). Please drive to the rural US outside of the big urban areas and ask 200 random people to get an EV. Maybe the answers you get will be some kind of reality check for you.

Hey now don't take your anger out on us because of his post!

I use 100% solar power and no fossil fuels, I'm a car guy with many fun cars in the garage so green was not on my list when buying!

Saying more money than brains is kind of rude, I bought this car because it was cool and the use of materials was interesting and different not to mention the car will never rust and me being in the rust belt that was important.

Just like you said everyone has an opinion so don't go all negative and wrap us car guys and stuff as greenies and all the other negative stuff you said, Where all here to have fun man! We're enthusiast's. Don't let others negativity get to you. You can be constructive without having to wrap us all into a demographic. .

[Diver]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

I guess you never bothered to stomp on it, because it moves out. Especially the BEV.

I did stomp on it. Not bad at low speeds, but no thump at freeway speeds.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Diver

I did stomp on it. Not bad at low speeds, but no thump at freeway speeds.

Oh common, there is some highway thump with properly harnessed tail winds and downward slopes !

a

P.S.: The car does need bigger balls, no doubt.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Oh common, there is some highway thump with properly harnessed tail winds and downward slopes !

a

P.S.: The car does need bigger balls, no doubt.

There is lots of wind in Houston, but not much in the way of downward slopes.

[Kiwi]

I will look again at this new 2017 i3.

All EV cars and trucks will be allowed in all bus lanes as well restricted bus only lanes and car poll lanes with only the driver required soon.��Next they will allow free parking in the CBD as New Zealand only has 1,000 odd EV cars and the government want 65,000 by 2021. It will not happen unless the prices drop or a lot of second hand Ev's come in from Japan.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Of those who do, many commute quite a bit and even if they have two cars need both to be entirely usable. That is not the case for any EV due to the lack of infrastructure and the length of time it takes to charge one when it's empty.

Plus they are exponentially more expensive than a fuel-based vehicle, and that's even without speaking about depreciation and long-term technical reliability, which is entirely unknown.

And yeah, getting an EV for your ecological conscience is just as stupid as long as the electricity it uses comes from fossile fuels.

So no, I'm not convinced at all. Right now an EV is something for people with more money than brains and the need for green posturing.

Wow! Someones got a bone to pick!

1. I charge my EV overnioght so charging time is NOT an issue. My point exactly...

2. I didn't get an EV for my "ecological Conscience". Thanks for assuming that though. I got an EV for the fun of of it and the associated independence from big oil companies.

3. My home electricity doesn't come from from fossil fules. Again, thanks for assuming that. Fact is you can basically run your EV on whatever upstream energy source that powers your home. You effectively have WAY more choices. So, if your unhappy about using fossil fuels for YOUR home, then go and lobby your local community and power provider. Don't assume everyone is using coal or oil to power their homes...

4. The EV's don't have to be expensive. I think we paid about $40K for the Volt (fully loaded) and that was before the $7.5K tax credit. But, feel free to join the rednecks in their $60K Chrome Covered F-150's who complain EV's are just too expensive!

Ignorance is your friend! Might as well "own it"!

[evanevery]

...and this is the part I really don't understand....

Why are so many folks militantly against the EV? Instead of simply saying "unfortunately, the model doesn't work for me". They go off and discount the EV as "unusable", "exponentially" too expensive, "something for people with more money than brains" and the "need for green posturing". None of this is accurate, so why the vitriol? What drives this type of response? What makes people mad that others drive an EV? Jealousy, Fear of the unknown, Fear of being left behind, Ignorance? Really, whats the poop?

I've been driving an EV since 2012 and I really don't understand this malicious attitude. Unfortunately, this type of attitude is more common that one might anticipate.

So whats the deal? The EV works for many people. In fact, Tesla literally can't build the Model S or X fast enough so they must be doing something right.

The basic point at the start of this thread was that BMW missed the mark. They did not make an EV which appeals to the masses. People have literally been waiting years for their Tesla Model X. Its pretty obvious that there is a booming market for an upscale EV. ..and as longer range EV's become cheaper (200+ mile, $35K, Tesla Model 3) that market will continue to encompass more and more people. Its just that BMW should have been able to build a competitive product (and they didn't). While Tesla can't build the S and X models fast enough, a recent headline article on Bimmerpost says BMW is trying to offload an oversupply of i3's...

And here's a tip... If you are commenting on a BMW forum (and drive an R8), maybe you might be outside the demographic which is looking for base model consumer bargains on an EV?

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Wow! Someones got a bone to pick!

No. I have an opinion. That is something different.

Originally Posted by evanevery

1. I charge my EV overnioght so charging time is NOT an issue. My point exactly...

Good for you. But just try to imagine - I know it's hard, as you seem pretty self-centered - that the majority of people can't do that. Because they need a bigger range than an EV can offer. Because no charging infrastructure exists where they live or can park their car. Just imagine. It's not hard, really.

Originally Posted by evanevery

2. I didn't get an EV for my "ecological Conscience". Thanks for assuming that though. I got an EV for the fun of of it and the associated independence from big oil companies.

I'm happy for you. For the majority of people on the planet a car is in the first place the possibility to move themselves or goods from A to B. They can't buy a car for other reasons because they can't afford it. EVs cannot currently do that because of their technical restrictions and lack of infrastructure. It's a nice first world thing to do, just as plastering the country with windmills, but it won't do a thing for climate protection.

And I can tell you that I know several people who bought an EV. And yes, they did it with the sole purpose of impressing their neighbours and broadcasting their green conscience. Of which I'm not a fan because it just shows how unreflected these people are.

Originally Posted by evanevery

3. My home electricity doesn't come from from fossil fules.

It's spelled "fuels" actually. Just so you know. And that's great for you. Still, what does that have to do with an EV?

Originally Posted by evanevery

Again, thanks for assuming that.

I'm not assuming anything. Please work on your reading comprehension. I don't care whether you have a bike at home attached to a dyno and create your electricity that way. Fact is, in 99% of the cases the electricity where people charge their EV does come from fossil fuels. And that even in Germany where the government, see above, is plastering every conceivable landscape with windmills. This is called statistics. What you are doing is applying your own situation to everyone else's. That's called something else but I'm too polite to actually say it.

Originally Posted by evanevery

Fact is you can basically run your EV on whatever upstream energy source that powers your home. You effectively have WAY more choices. So, if your unhappy about using fossil fuels for YOUR home, then go and lobby your local community and power provider. Don't assume everyone is using coal or oil to power their homes...

See above. I'm not assuming, I'm actually basing what I say on figures. You can also look them up and see how big the percentage of renewable energy is in the US. You may actually learn something. And again, you seem to fail to understand that only a marginal proportion of people can charge their vehicles at home - and I'm not even taking into account when you're travelling. Or do you have a mobile home and take it with you, including your charging station? I'd like to see that.

Originally Posted by evanevery

4. The EV's don't have to be expensive.

Anything that has complex technology in it has to be expensive. If it isn't, somebody else is paying for it. Either the car company is subsidising it (which happens with the entire BMW i branch), or the government / you as taxpayer are subsidising it (see UK and now Germany, US tax credits...you name it).

If you're assuming you can just make technology more complex and get it for free, you're naive. If you think you can just call it cheap because there are no long-term experiences - repair, recycling etc. - then you're more than naive.

Originally Posted by evanevery

I think we paid about $40K for the Volt (fully loaded) and that was before the $7.5K tax credit. But, feel free to join the rednecks in their $60K Chrome Covered F-150's who complain EV's are just too expensive!

I have no idea why you associate educated opinions that are different from your own as those coming from "rednecks", whoever they are (some Indian tribe?).

For what they are, and how you can use them, EVs are extortionately expensive. Same goes for plug-in hybrids. Which is why no one in their right mind buys them, as long as they are the relevant person's only vehicle. If they are like you and can buy stuff just for fun, sure, then money isn't an object anyway, or at least not the primary consideration.

But just imagine - I know, it's a stretch for you, but I'm trying - that most likely the majority needs a fully-usable car for less than 40K that doesn't look like an ugly Opel and can be refueled more or less everywhere.

If you have ever done a serious calculation about the efficiency of EVs or plug-in hybrids, you would have come to the conclusion that they're actually much less efficient than fuel powered cars. But sure, if you want to pretend otherwise, I won't object.

Originally Posted by evanevery

Ignorance is your friend! Might as well "own it"!

You're welcome.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by evanevery

...and this is the part I really don't understand....

Well, then maybe you haven't really thought it through. But I'm a nice person, I'm going to help you there.

Originally Posted by evanevery

Why are so many folks militantly against the EV? Instead of simply saying "unfortunately, the model doesn't work for me". They go off and discount the EV as "unusable", "exponentially" too expensive, "something for people with more money than brains" and the "need for green posturing". None of this is accurate, so why the vitriol? What drives this type of response? What makes people mad that others drive an EV? Jealousy, Fear of the unknown, Fear of being left behind, Ignorance? Really, whats the poop?

Again, I have no idea why you qualify other people's opinions when they diverge from yours as "militant". This process is simply called "arguing", which means you have to have actual arguments going for you. Reading so far, I have only seen personal assumptions from your side.

Speaking for myself, I'm very much against the EVs as they serve as a fig leaf that covers up the fact that they actually don't do much for climate change and are an immature technology that is being foistered on consumers. It's just a pretense for the industry to be able to comply with more and more stringent emission requirements, but not an actual try to give consumers an added value. Billions and billions are spent on a technology that is unusable for the vast majority of people, and as a taxpayer I'm obliged to finance this idiocy.

It's simply something for politicians to say they've made an effort, and everyone applaudes them because it's so good for the environment, but if you think about it for 2 minutes it's actually a very bad idea.

Originally Posted by evanevery

I've been driving an EV since 2012 and I really don't understand this malicious attitude. Unfortunately, this type of attitude is more common that one might anticipate.

If the attitude comes from lack of reflection on it, I'm not for it either. But maybe you could simply assume that some people actually think before they share their opinion with you.

Originally Posted by evanevery

So whats the deal? The EV works for many people. In fact, Tesla literally can't build the Model S or X fast enough so they must be doing something right.

Yeah right, Tesla. Pet project of a billionaire who just does what he pleases. A company that has not been profitable since its existence. Bad example.

I know quite a few people who have a Tesla. As a fourth car, money no object, and no they can't even use it to go on holidays as there are not sufficient charging stations anywhere. Oh, and did I mention Tesla subsidises the charging? Just some food for thought. If Audi or BMW paid my fuel expenses, I would also get a few more cars just for fun.

Originally Posted by evanevery

The basic point at the start of this thread was that BMW missed the mark. They did not make an EV which appeals to the masses. People have literally been waiting years for their Tesla Model X. Its pretty obvious that there is a booming market for an upscale EV. ..and as longer range EV's become cheaper (200+ mile, $35K, Tesla Model 3) that market will continue to encompass more and more people. Its just that BMW should have been able to build a competitive product (and they didn't). While Tesla can't build the S and X models fast enough, a recent headline article on Bimmerpost says BMW is trying to offload an oversupply of i3's...

Yeah, the i3 is a failure, at least from a sales perspective. But seriously, who would buy a car at that price which is that ugly, has a minuscule range and is sold at such a high price point? Obviously almost anyone has come to the conclusion that this is a bad idea.

Originally Posted by evanevery

And here's a tip... If you are commenting on a BMW forum (and drive an R8), maybe you might be outside the demographic which is looking for base model consumer bargains on an EV?

Ok, now you're arguing only people who fall into your definition of demographic of this forum can have an opinion on something? Seriously, I thought North Corea was not in Wisconsin, but you're starting to prove me wrong there...