[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I would never pass judgement based on media stories. ....After all, innocent until proven guilty. Just my two cents.

THIS!!

[UncleWede]

A question of liability, but also an issue with my own personal regret.

Saturday evening, just before sunset. Get to the stop sign at the end of my street. Bus is turning onto my street, so I stop short of the limit line. I then creep forward, check left, right, left, then proceed with my left turn. All of a sudden the wife is shouting, and I see a cycle on the passenger side swerving right, then he squirrels around me on the left yelling. I sign I'm sorry. He drives up about 200 yard then slides to a stop.

I pull up and roll down my window, apologizing. He gets off, lifts his facemask, and tell me "You can't be doing that" I continue to apologize, and he threateningly approaches the vehicle.

Wife starts yelling "GO go go!"

IF he had done what I expected, and removed his helmet and smashed a window or something, he retains liability, even if I cut him off previously?

The only 2 things I can figure is that either a) the blind curve right before the intersection, he was leaned way over and hidden behind the yellow truck that was parked in the corner parking lot, or b) he was FLYING on street posted 25.


Yes, I'm still bothered that I almost crushed this guy.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

A question of liability, but also an issue with my own personal regret.

Saturday evening, just before sunset. Get to the stop sign at the end of my street. Bus is turning onto my street, so I stop short of the limit line. I then creep forward, check left, right, left, then proceed with my left turn. All of a sudden the wife is shouting, and I see a cycle on the passenger side swerving right, then he squirrels around me on the left yelling. I sign I'm sorry. He drives up about 200 yard then slides to a stop.

I pull up and roll down my window, apologizing. He gets off, lifts his facemask, and tell me "You can't be doing that" I continue to apologize, and he threateningly approaches the vehicle.

Wife starts yelling "GO go go!"

IF he had done what I expected, and removed his helmet and smashed a window or something, he retains liability, even if I cut him off previously?

The only 2 things I can figure is that either a) the blind curve right before the intersection, he was leaned way over and hidden behind the yellow truck that was parked in the corner parking lot, or b) he was FLYING on street posted 25.


Yes, I'm still bothered that I almost crushed this guy.

Had he done that, he's still guilty of vandalism despite the circumstances. In California, vandalism turns into a felony really quickly if damage reaches $400 or more.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Did not read through all the pages but what do LE think about what happened in MA to the Ma State police officers that were involved with falsifying records while on overtime?

I haven't read that account, BUT I would like to hear both sides. A bunch of California Highway Patrol officers lost their jobs a couple of years ago for the exact same thing (...falsifying overtime). For as much money as we make (...which still isn't enough), it's simply not worth it to defraud.

In the case(s) with the CHP, it came down to freeway overtime assisting CalTrans. They got busted because an officer or two had more billable O.T. hours than there are in a calendar year. This prompted an investigation that unearthed a huge problem. Dozens of officers got caught.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I agree with that my friend. We should have a beer or two sometime and shoot the shit.

Let's do it bro!

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I haven't read that account, BUT I would like to hear both sides. A bunch of California Highway Patrol officers lost their jobs a few years ago for the exact same thing (...falsifying overtime). For as much money as we make (...which still isn't enough), it's simply not worth it to defraud.

No matter how much you have, "If I just had another $20"

[mahalom3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I haven't read that account, BUT I would like to hear both sides. A bunch of California Highway Patrol officers lost their jobs a couple of years ago for the exact same thing (...falsifying overtime). For as much money as we make (...which still isn't enough), it's simply not worth it to defraud.

I heard about this as well. A buddy of mine a CHP Sgt. told me a few of them got terminated for falsifying CALTRANS OT..

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by mahalom3

I heard about this as well. A buddy of mine a CHP Sgt. told me a few of them got terminated for falsifying CALTRANS OT..

Yep! That was exactly it. More than a few lost their jobs. I think there were over 40 officers who got caught. The punishment(s) ranged from the proverbial slap on the wrist up to, and including, termination.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Had he done that, he's still guilty of vandalism despite the circumstances. In California, vandalism turns into a felony really quickly if damage reaches $400 or more.

Even if he fell off his bike, what you did wasn't intentional. I can't think of any circumstance that would justify him taking any action against you or your property. He can cuss you out a bit but anything after that isn't justified.

[M-technik-3]

Ones in my state all served no time and retired. Seems state's attorney general did not have the stomach to prosecute to the full extent of law. If I was to steal from the state to that tune I know I would be doing time in my local prison. Glad I get to pay their life needs in retirement after they have stolen from the ones that feed them.

Now that being said I support LE, the jobs they have are subject to being deadly but at other times is idle. Be safe out there.

[F30lolz]

Have you been asked privately from anyone on this forum to help you get a ticket dismissed?

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by F30lolz

Have you been asked privately from anyone on this forum to help you get a ticket dismissed?

No, I have local officers to ask that

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by F30lolz

Have you been asked privately from anyone on this forum to help you get a ticket dismissed?

I've helped out a couple of people on the forum in the past. In one instance I knew the officer and "phoned in a friend" for the Bimmerpost member.

[F32Fleet]

Sedan_Clan,

Do you think a 2nd degree conviction in Floyd case would change policing in the US?

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I've helped out a couple of people on the forum in the past. In one instance I knew the officer and "phoned in a friend" for the Bimmerpost member.

Fricking Lups - I knew it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Sedan_Clan,

Do you think a 2nd degree conviction in Floyd case would change policing in the US?

Not at all. I have my feelings about the Floyd incident. I think going with murder in this case was a bad move buoyed by political pressure. Involuntary Manslaughter at best.......if you are of the position that he's some racist cop, but murder it was not. The circumstances don't fit the statute for murder (...at least as it's defined in California), so there's a chance he could get off on that alone. There's no proof of premeditation or malice (...they were responding to a call) and prior knowledge of Floyd is irrelevant (..I know all of the troublemakers in my patrol area(s) too). A good defense lawyer will poke holes in this case.

Floyd was claiming he couldn't breathe as he sat unrestrained in the back of the patrol car and prior to any real physical contact on behalf of the officers. Taking Chauvin's [presumed] state of mind into consideration, it's no wonder they didn't take Floyd seriously. With that said, Chauvin's knee placement was out of policy, so there will be repercussions for that.

I have personally been in Chauvin's shoes during my career. When I worked LA's jails, I was part of a five man extraction team that needed to extract an inmate out of a cell who refused to exit for mandatory court. During the extraction, the inmate struggled and we ended up on the ground. I had my knee across the inmate's neck when it should've been on his shoulder blade. I didn't even realize it until a Sergeant directing/observing the force tapped me on the shoulder and told me to reposition my shin/knee.

Having the experience helps keep my emotions in check, especially considering I've been in the same situations as most of these officers who find themselves on trial. It could very easily be/have been me.

I implore people in general to stop making everything about race; 99% of the time it isn't about race at all. It's about criminals being criminals and people in my profession being tasked to deal with them. All of the systemic stuff is so overblown. It's a virtue signaling talking point.


P.S. I find it quite amusing that in less than a year, the defund movement has shifted to the refund movement because shit got out of hand. We told them it would happen. This is the type of absurdity that occurs when people with zero police experience make determinations about how departments should function and how funds should be allocated.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

.... P.S. I find it quite amusing that in less than a year, the defund movement has shifted to the refund movement because shit got out of hand. We told them it would happen. This is the type of absurdity that occurs when people with zero police experience make determinations about how departments should function and how funds should be allocated.

The 'defund' movement was mostly a rediculous media show. The real show will be when serious people try to reign in the police unions, which exacerbate so many problems, from protection to over pay to political influence to....

Murf

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/o...sultPosition=1

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

The 'defund' movement was mostly a rediculous media show. The real show will be when serious people try to reign in the police unions, which exacerbate so many problems, from protection to over pay to political influence to....

Murf

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/o...sultPosition=1

Unions are not inherently bad. A few bad apples does not make the bunch. They do far more good as a whole. They fight for our pay, our benefits and fair treatment.

[joooiiiiii]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Not at all. I have my feelings about the Floyd incident. I think going with murder in this case was a bad move buoyed by political pressure. Involuntary Manslaughter at best.......if you are of the position that he's some racist cop, but murder it was not. The circumstances don't fit the statute for murder (...at least as it's defined in California), so there's a chance he could get off on that alone. There's no proof of premeditation or malice (...they were responding to a call) and prior knowledge of Floyd is irrelevant (..I know all of the troublemakers in my patrol area(s) too). A good defense lawyer will poke holes in this case.

Floyd was claiming he couldn't breathe as he sat unrestrained in the back of the patrol car and prior to any real physical contact on behalf of the officers. Taking Chauvin's [presumed] state of mind into consideration, it's no wonder they didn't take Floyd seriously. With that said, Chauvin's knee placement was out of policy, so there will be repercussions for that.

I have personally been in Chauvin's shoes during my career. When I worked LA's jails, I was part of a five man extraction team that needed to extract an inmate out of a cell who refused to exit for mandatory court. During the extraction, the inmate struggled and we ended up on the ground. I had my knee across the inmate's neck when it should've been on his shoulder blade. I didn't even realize it until a Sergeant directing/observing the forced tapped me on the shoulder and told me to reposition my shin/knee.

Having the experience helps keep my emotions in check, especially considering I've been in the same situations as most of these officers who find themselves on trial. It could very easily be/have been me.

I implore people in general to stop making everything about race; 99% of the time it isn't about race at all. It's about criminals being criminals and people in my profession being tasked to deal with them. All of the systemic stuff is so overblown. It's a virtue signaling talking point.


P.S. I find it quite amusing that in less than a year, the defund movement has shifted to the refund movement because shit got out of hand. We told them it would happen. This is the type of absurdity that occurs when people with zero police experience make determinations about how departments should function and how funds should be allocated.

As an LEO, I agree with this assessment. Things are not always black and white when it comes to any given situation on the street. Racist? Probably. Wrong procedure? Yes. Murder charge? Most likely not.

However, I'll probably get flak for this, I don't agree with the systemic racism statement. I do believe there is systemic racism.

There is approximately 12,300 local police departments alone (Hyland, 2019). I understand that in our very own departments that we may work in or work with, we might not see it outright, but just imagine places in the middle of nowhere with Officers or Deputies who make up that department/office into something that could very well be perpetuating it. Who is to say the Feds are going to be able to conduct investigations and/or put Federal oversight on thousands of departments around the States?

I have worked with colleagues who have put in most of their life in LE and probably won't admit that their views on criminality and criminal justice might be slightly skewed or biased. When you perform, see and react to the same things on the job for a long time, it can have an affect on your view on things--good and bad.

My assessment is that George Floyd is a wake-up call. The majority of society would like to see some type of reform or change, but that doesn't mean there is an easy solution to it nor does it mean everyone wants the same type of reform or change. The outcry for police reform goes well beyond just law enforcement reform because the entire system (social work, mental health, income/wealth disparity, education, etc.) needs to be addressed. I obviously don't have all the answers to any of that, but I do know there is a lot of work that needs to be done and the Floyd death is the straw that broke the camels back for the ethnic community.


Hyland, S. S. (2019, October 25). Local police departments PERSONNEL, 2016. Retrieved March 30, 2021, from https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6706

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Unions are not inherently bad. A few bad apples does not make the bunch. They do far more good as a whole. They fight for our pay, our benefits and fair treatment.

Unions are inherently good, IMHO. But unions aren't allowed in the armed forces for a reason. The police have managed to create a monster in many municipalities.
Clan, I wish you read the article I posted. It goes into how police departments are bankrupting many cities, but they are too independent & powerful for the civilians to control.
Pls search for an article about a Texas lawyer who codified the strategies police use to exert control over their supposed civilian masters. The lawyer now regrets much of his work on the strategies that he now thinks have gone too far.

Murf

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Unions are inherently good, IMHO. But unions aren't allowed in the armed forces for a reason. The police have managed to create a monster in many municipalities.
Clan, I wish you read the article I posted. It goes into how police departments are bankrupting many cities, but they are too independent & powerful for the civilians to control.
Pls search for an article about a Texas lawyer who codified the strategies police use to exert control over their supposed civilian masters. The lawyer now regrets much of his work on the strategies that have gone too far.

Murf

I read it. Here's my position.....


....Unions aren't allowed in the military because it's......the military. There are reasons far above both of our pay grades that demonstrate why unions do not serve military personnel.

As for the bankrupting....


....you'll get no argument from me about that. It's true and it's happening all across the country. Do I think it's solely a union issue?!? No! Back when certain government retirement plans were drafted, things were different. Now, those liabilities are becoming due [as people retire] and its posing a problem (...which has impacted those of us with 15 or less years on the job; more so those with less than 10 years). We have to work longer AND with less percentages. Do you think it's prudent to have 60+ year old beat cops?!? I don't. ...but that's what we will get since the retirement ages have been pushed further back and the percentages are less, requiring officers to work longer to have a decent retirement. There is more than meets the eye. It's deeper than that article suggests and it's oversimplified. I don't want to have to work into my late 50's-early 60's to get a decent percentage, but that's what I was dealt when I got hired. The unions only have so much control.

On top of the issue with retirement, there's also the funding of departments. We run on skeleton crews and old(er) equipment (...scraping by in hopes the shit doesn't completely crap on us), but somebody needs to fund it, and that falls on the taxes in municipalities, counties or state taxes. We need to be able to operate. It's either that or deal with your own problems and don't call us.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I read it. Here's my position.....


....Unions aren't allowed in the military because it's......the military. There are reasons far above both of our pay grades that demonstrate why unions do not serve military personnel.

As for the bankrupting....


....you'll get no argument from me about that. It's true and it's happening all across the country. Do I think it's solely a union issue?!? No! Back when certain government retirement plans were drafted, things were different. Now, those liabilities are becoming due [as people retire] and its posing a problem (...which has impacted those of us with 15 or less years on the job; more so those with less than 10 years). We have to work longer AND with less percentages. Do you think it's prudent to have 60+ year old beat cops?!? I don't. ...but that's what we will get since the retirement ages have been pushed further back and the percentages are less, requiring officers to work longer to have a decent retirement. There is more than meets the eye. It's deeper than that article suggests and it's oversimplified. I don't want to have to work into my late 50's-early 60's to get a decent percentage, but that's what I was dealt when I got hired. The unions only have so much control.

On top of the issue with retirement, there's also the funding of departments. We run on skeleton crews and old(er) equipment (...scraping by in hopes the shit doesn't completely crap on us), but somebody needs to fund it, and that falls on the taxes in municipalities, counties or state taxes. We need to be able to operate. It's either that or deal with your own problems and don't call us.

Well we could call them the 'army' or 'navy', but having a union would still under mind the chain of command needed for the armed forces.
Sure there is more to it, but the article is much better than citing 'defund' shows on TV! You could search for that Texas lawyer guy....
Many NYC cops want to work in Suffolk because of the... high pay! What this means for, say, teacher pay is any one's guess.

Murf