[sq86]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

They are applying similar efforts to other forms of transportation. Ex Low sulphur marine diesel. CNG buses etc.

You can find the data but it appears after year 4-5 a hybrid/BEV begins to pull ahead of ICE in terms of lifecycle emissions.

I think it's easier to regulate the auto industry since it's been done through fuel economy standards/emissions for decades. Other industries are opposed to it and have fought the regulation changes.

I agree that other changes are being made but my point is that it could be happening at the same pace that it is in the automotive industry therefore we see bigger impact across the board.

[sq86]

Originally Posted by PLF69

And what auto manufacturers won't reveal too easily is that the EV's probably have a better ROI for them than ICE cars. Wich the sofistication of ICE cars today I would think they save quite a bit with an EV, a lot more software programming than mechanical engineering.

I wouldn't think about it too much, manufacturers are ramping up huge amount of credits from there EV offerings to be able to sell ICE cars for a long time. It's not because some manufacturers jump on the hype train and declare stupid stuff like all there cars will be EVs that everyone is going to do it.

That's probably true about the higher margins but don't forget they're spending billions (BMW said $30b by 2025, some of that is towards autonomous driving tech) to get there in the first place. The end benefit for the manufactures is that they can use the same tech across multiple platforms, thereby lowering costs across the board. That's why we'll see more shared platforms in the future.

[spool twice]

has BMW published their ROI with BEV's? Or are we using another companies findings and applying it across the board?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by spool twice

has BMW published their ROI with BEV's? Or are we using another companies findings and applying it across the board?

I suspect the current amount of data is Insufficient.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by PLF69

And what auto manufacturers won't reveal too easily is that the EV's probably have a better ROI for them than ICE cars. Wich the sofistication of ICE cars today I would think they save quite a bit with an EV, a lot more software programming than mechanical engineering.

I wouldn't think about it too much, manufacturers are ramping up huge amount of credits from there EV offerings to be able to sell ICE cars for a long time. It's not because some manufacturers jump on the hype train and declare stupid stuff like all there cars will be EVs that everyone is going to do it.

As long as they keep some staples around, I think they can keep marching along making money and making consumers happy. I think there will always be a market for ICE in trucks and sports cars. Speed is great. But I'd drive an ICE sport sedan over and EV, regardless of the 0-60 they can pull from the EV. There's a feel to the revs and the gear shifts that's very satisfying.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by NGT2

As long as they keep some staples around, I think they can keep marching along making money and making consumers happy. I think there will always be a market for ICE in trucks and sports cars. Speed is great. But I'd drive an ICE sport sedan over and EV, regardless of the 0-60 they can pull from the EV. There's a feel to the revs and the gear shifts that's very satisfying.

ICE will be around for decades because developing countries have gas, diesel and kerosene.

They don't have reliable electric grids.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

ICE will be around for decades because developing countries have gas, diesel and kerosene.

They don't have reliable electric grids.

I know it will be around the earth for decades. I just want it to be around me for decades!

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by NGT2

I know it will be around the earth for decades. I just want it to be around me for decades!

So, you decided to come on a EV forum to tout your anti-EV

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by NGT2

I know it will be around the earth for decades. I just want it to be around me for decades!

If you are in a developed country; don't count on it. While I think that most countries miss the boat on cheap electricity from nuclear (except France) other sources are available.

I don't plan on buying anything that's not EV unless I find some classic to restore.

M50 and Fisker Ocean will join the sable as soon as they both arrive. Now I need a second charger.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by spool twice

So, you decided to come on a EV forum to tout your anti-EV

Good point. I guess I lost the original point somewhere.

The i4 is cool. When I get more comfortable with the range and reliability, I'd drive one. I like that it's styled more traditionally than some other EV's. I'm not anti EV, I just want a taste of ICE around also. I'm a fan of both, not a fan of being exclusive to EV.

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by NGT2

Good point. I guess I lost the original point somewhere.

The i4 is cool. When I get more comfortable with the range and reliability, I'd drive one. I like that it's styled more traditionally than some other EV's. I'm not anti EV, I just want a taste of ICE around also. I'm a fan of both, not a fan of being exclusive to EV.

Gotcha. I believe many of us on here are the same, we aren't all 100% BEV's and a few of us from from BMW's M divisions ourselves.

Side note with the range, BMW uses an EPA 2 cycle test, which takes each cycle test results, deducts 30%, and takes a weighted average to compute the combined rating.

The tests are:
-UDDS Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule
-HWFET Highway Fuel Economy Driving Schedule

In other words, the i4 M50 would have seen 385miles on average in their controlled test environment, but instead of continuing to go another 3 cycles to get an alternative deduction factor (and more favorable on-paper EPA #), BMW and many other german manufacters use this method and hence why BEV's such as the Taycan can see more than 30% of their EPA estimated range without even trying. I have high hopes for the i4's range once we see real-world tests by owners conducted in at 70*F temps.


The 5 cycle tests (such as the one Tesla mostly uses), has 3 low speed cycles, one mid speed cycle, and one aggressive low/aggressive high speed cycle. The 5 cycle tests favor BEV's for range because 4 out of the five is right where EV's thrive, but my understanding of this 5 cycle test is that owners rarely see EPA ranges out of their own vehicles.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by spool twice

Gotcha. I believe many of us on here are the same, we aren't all 100% BEV's and a few of us from from BMW's M divisions ourselves.

Side note with the range, BMW uses an EPA 2 cycle test, which takes each cycle test results, deducts 30%, and takes a weighted average to compute the combined rating.

The tests are:
-UDDS Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule
-HWFET Highway Fuel Economy Driving Schedule

In other words, the i4 M50 would have seen 385miles on average in their controlled test environment, but instead of continuing to go another 3 cycles to get an alternative deduction factor (and more favorable on-paper EPA #), BMW and many other german manufacters use this method and hence why BEV's such as the Taycan can see more than 30% of their EPA estimated range without even trying. I have high hopes for the i4's range once we see real-world tests by owners conducted in at 70*F temps.


The 5 cycle tests (such as the one Tesla mostly uses), has 3 low speed cycles, one mid speed cycle, and one aggressive low/aggressive high speed cycle. The 5 cycle tests favor BEV's for range because 4 out of the five is right where EV's thrive, but my understanding of this 5 cycle test is that owners rarely see EPA ranges out of their own vehicles.

The i4 and the iX were tested under the 5 cycle label

[usmabmass]

Originally Posted by sq86

The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?

Why should I bother losing 20 pounds if i'm 100 pounds overweight

[usmabmass]

Originally Posted by NGT2

Good point. I guess I lost the original point somewhere.

The i4 is cool. When I get more comfortable with the range and reliability, I'd drive one. I like that it's styled more traditionally than some other EV's. I'm not anti EV, I just want a taste of ICE around also. I'm a fan of both, not a fan of being exclusive to EV.

Same camp - just ordered the M50 and excited to play around with my first electric car.

My household currently has a 550i and an S6. The M50 will replace one when it arrives (haven't decided yet) - the EV will be my commuter car (taking a new job and expecting ~60 mi roundtrip/day) so will be perfect. The other car will be perfect for the other person / road trips

[sq86]

Originally Posted by usmabmass

Why should I bother losing 20 pounds if i'm 100 pounds overweight

More like, America's overweight, I should lose 10 to help.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by sq86

The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?

Consumers proved that there is a significant market for EV because of Tesla, not the other way around.

So where is this "forcing EV on consumers" coming from?

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by Technic

Consumers proved that there is a significant market for EV because of Tesla, not the other way around.

So where is this "forcing EV on consumers" coming from?

Umm...the President and VP.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Technic

Consumers proved that there is a significant market for EV because of Tesla, not the other way around.

So where is this "forcing EV on consumers" coming from?

Creating the market and serving EV consumers isn't forcing anything. But when when ICE models are discontinued while there is still plenty of demand, that is forcing those consumers into a product they aren't asking for. The solution for consumers and existing infrastructure is to continue to offer diverse options.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Umm...the President and VP.

Proposing a more extensive charging infrastructure is forcing nobody to do anything.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by NGT2

Creating the market and serving EV consumers isn't forcing anything. But when when ICE models are discontinued while there is still plenty of demand, that is forcing those consumers into a product they aren't asking for. The solution for consumers and existing infrastructure is to continue to offer diverse options.

As of today, there is no legislation or even a set date for a ban of ICE nationwide in the USA. Only California has an executive order banning ICE cars by 2035, and even that is still in discussion.

So, there is no forcing unless consumers want the forcing. And so far, there will be none for decades.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Technic

As of today, there is no legislation or even a set date for a ban of ICE nationwide in the USA. Only California has an executive order banning ICE cars by 2035, and even that is still in discussion.

So, there is no forcing unless consumers want the forcing. And so far, there will be none for decades.

There doesn't have to be a ban for regulation and energy policy to dictate imminent change. Also, given that this is a BMW forum, we should account for policy and regs outside of the USA as well.

I'm not arguing there isn't a market for EV. There very obviously is. What I and others are arguing is that there is also a market of consumers that don't want to make that switch, cars aren't really the problem, and regulatory steps to "look like we're doing something" are forcing the industry to move at a faster pace than it might otherwise move.

[Rox335i]

Originally Posted by mbchris

Why do the 20s have such poor range? Wheel and tire weight? Stickiness of tire?

Normal for all EV's. Look at Tesla M3/Y long range.