[afadeev]

My i3 is coming off lease shortly, and given lack of any meaningful investment into i-platform BMW, my next EV wont be made in Germany.
MB and VW group offerings are not much better.

We test drove a bunch of EV options, and only Leaf SL and Model 3 were going to fit into the "small fun car" category that i3 currently occupies in our garage.
And then Musk dropped the prices for TM3s by ~$6K all around, and it was game over.

Thus, after two 24 month i3 lease cycles, we ordered a black/black TM3P to replace it.

Proper 4-door sedan with enough space for two adults to sit in comfort in the back.
310 mile range.
3.2 second 0-60.

Proper performance suspension, track mode TC, performance tires (Michelin Pilot Sport 4S). Handles just about as well as my BMW M3, but a bit heavier, yet faster. We'll see how it does on track later this year.

Thank you BMW for introducing us to the EV universe.
Sadly, you stopped investing into EVs, and had nothing new to offer seven years after the i3 launch. We're moving on.

a

[blinkme323]

Congrats on the Model 3P. I actually almost pulled the trigger on one myself, as it's an awesome machine.

The only thing I couldn't get over was the fact that there is no discernible aesthetic difference between a 35k Model 3 and an 75k Model 3. Otherwise it was shockingly good.

[tankertoad]

Since 2014, when I had an i3 over the weekend on an "extended test drive", I've been a fan of it and it sat as a potential next car.

That is, until I recently rented (Turo) a dual motor AWD Model 3 for four days. Wow. Except for the unique styling of the i3 (which I happen to like) and the carbon fiber shell, the Model 3 blows away the i3 in every other respect.

The looks, while somewhat generic, are pleasing. The acceleration is fantastic, the handling sufficient, the interior is spartan but comfortable and supportive. The tech is wonderful and the sound system is the best OEM I've ever heard. I found very little not to love about the car. In fact, I can't stop thinking about it.

Now, I have to rent an M240i and a Cayman to see which will be vying with the Tesla to be my next car.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by afadeev

My i3 is coming off lease shortly, and given lack of any meaningful investment into i-platform BMW, my next EV wont be made in Germany.
MB and VW group offerings are not much better.

We test drove a bunch of EV options, and only Leaf SL and Model 3 were going to fit into the "small fun car" category that i3 currently occupies in our garage.
And then Musk dropped the prices for TM3s by ~$6K all around, and it was game over.

Thus, after two 24 month i3 lease cycles, we ordered a black/black TM3P to replace it.

Proper 4-door sedan with enough space for two adults to sit in comfort in the back.
310 mile range.
3.2 second 0-60.

Proper performance suspension, track mode TC, performance tires (Michelin Pilot Sport 4S). Handles just about as well as my BMW M3, but a bit heavier, yet faster. We'll see how it does on track later this year.

Thank you BMW for introducing us to the EV universe.
Sadly, you stopped investing into EVs, and had nothing new to offer seven years after the i3 launch. We're moving on.

a

Congrats! I'm pleased with my current 2018 i3 (my 2nd), but I don't see anything from BMW in the future to fit my budget as an EV commuter. The $35k Tesla Model 3 seems like a good alternative, but I will NEVER get a black car ever again. Hopefully they will have a white on black Model 3 in 2 years when my i3 lease is up.

On that note, are you/did you buy or lease? Leasing has been such a good deal on my past 2 i3's (less than $200/mo including tax on both), I'm dreading anything higher than a $300/mo payment. I'm also curious if you think the M3 and the Model 3 are so close together in terms of what they are built for. The Model 3 is so fast, I'm not sure I would still keep my M3 CS with something like that, but I'd also be slightly apprehensive about an electric track car.

[Vitalität]

Originally Posted by jmg

Congrats! I'm pleased with my current 2018 i3 (my 2nd), but I don't see anything from BMW in the future to fit my budget as an EV commuter. The $35k Tesla Model 3 seems like a good alternative, but I will NEVER get a black car ever again. Hopefully they will have a white on black Model 3 in 2 years when my i3 lease is up.

On that note, are you/did you buy or lease? Leasing has been such a good deal on my past 2 i3's (less than $200/mo including tax on both), I'm dreading anything higher than a $300/mo payment. I'm also curious if you think the M3 and the Model 3 are so close together in terms of what they are built for. The Model 3 is so fast, I'm not sure I would still keep my M3 CS with something like that, but I'd also be slightly apprehensive about an electric track car.

Can't lease a model 3 can you? Either CASH or Loan only right? If lease is available, that would be a good option within the warranty period. Owning one and dealing with issues is a bit scary especially now that consumers are not recommending Tesla anymore and they are considering closing stores.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Vitalität

Can't lease a model 3 can you? Either CASH or Loan only right? If lease is available, that would be a good option within the warranty period. Owning one and dealing with issues is a bit scary especially now that consumers are not recommending Tesla anymore and they are considering closing stores.

Leasing the Model 3 was not possible in the past, but I heard Tesla was going to roll one out soon. I was wondering if the OP was perhaps one of the first.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by tankertoad

Except for the unique styling of the i3 (which I happen to like) and the carbon fiber shell, the Model 3 blows away the i3 in every other respect.

I was attracted to all of the above i3 features, minus the exterior styling that I never cared for, though, grew to ignore over time.

In retrospect, carbon shell is a nuisance.
It's not repairable, so any scratch of minor damage results in car getting totaled, thus the insurance rates are stupid high ($50 higher/year than my M3!!!).

And do I really care what the car's shell is made of?
Carbon fiber? Titanium? Aluminum? Old-fashioned steel?
Not really. Actually, not at all.

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't see anything from BMW in the future to fit my budget as an EV commuter. The $35k Tesla Model 3 seems like a good alternative, but I will NEVER get a black car ever again. Hopefully they will have a white on black Model 3 in 2 years when my i3 lease is up.

White exterior (and either white/black interior) are already a $1.5K option on TM3's.
Frankly, I don't like ANY of Tesla's exterior colors. They are all plain, and unexciting. The only two tolerable to me colors are black and red, and one is $2.5K more expensive then the other. Thus I defaulted to black.

The interior, on the other hand, looks great in either black (becomes white above shoulder) or white (not light grey, it is really really white!).
White interior looks absolutely stunning, but with two kids, I did not dare go white on the inside.

Originally Posted by jmg

On that note, are you/did you buy or lease? Leasing has been such a good deal on my past 2 i3's (less than $200/mo including tax on both), I'm dreading anything higher than a $300/mo payment.

Buying.
Tesla does not currently offer leasing on TM3's, only Model S's.
And even on S's lease rates are @#$%, and monthly lease payment is about the same as a loan payment.

BMW i3 lease rates are a steal, and definitely motivated me to lease the 2nd i3. But the form function of the TM3 is significantly better. So is the pricing.
Tesla doesn't subsidize financing or trade-ins, and their finance rates (3.75% APR) are not as competitive as what I can bring on my own.

Originally Posted by jmg

I'm also curious if you think the M3 and the Model 3 are so close together in terms of what they are built for. The Model 3 is so fast, I'm not sure I would still keep my M3 CS with something like that, but I'd also be slightly apprehensive about an electric track car.

I don't think Tesla focuses on track performance when it designs cars.
However, TM3-P, with Randy Probst's "track mode", is as close as they got so far, and feedback is pretty good. There is a funny story on how "track mode" came about, with Randy volunteering himself into the job of Tesla track engineer:
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...ersion-review/

I will defer judgement until I drive M3 and TM3 on track, back-to-back (will sign up for autoX's and DE's in 2Q with my wife, swapping cars).

Based on the internet reports, I expect TM3 to be faster than M3 over a few qualifying laps, before heat-sync sets in, and lap times drop by a second or two. It's a heavier car (~4000 lbs vs. ~3600 for M3), so I expect more tire wear and more sliding through corners. But the instant torque at all four wheels can compensate for a lot of other limitations.

One reason I went for the largest battery is ability to run a 2-3 full track sessions before needing to recharge, similar to the mileage I get out of the M3.
L3 recharge on TM3 will take ~20 minutes (to 80% battery), a little longer than gasoline refill, but still very manageable.
LimeRock already has 12 electric chargers in the paddock (charges at many other West Coast tracks), with other tracks to follow.

Originally Posted by tankertoad

The looks, while somewhat generic, are pleasing. The acceleration is fantastic, the handling sufficient, the interior is spartan but comfortable and supportive. The tech is wonderful and the sound system is the best OEM I've ever heard. I found very little not to love about the car. In fact, I can't stop thinking about it.

TM3 exterior is very generic, but interior is minimalist, elegant, and functional.
For $35K, before Fed & State incentives, it's an awesome deal.
For $58K for TM3P (before extras & incentives), it's a very compelling value proposition, for something that is faster than anything BMW or MB have to offer, at any price.

I like to think that there is something that BMW M3 has on offer that TM3 can't deliver, but I am not optimistic on that. That's mostly my 20+ year history of continuously owning at least one BMW talking. Realistically, TM3 may replace both the i3 (for sure) and the M3 (TBD) in my garage.

a

P.S.: The only definitely good thing about the BMW M3 is that my wife is apprehensive about driving it. So it is always at my disposal. I'm not optimistic TM3 will have the same effect on her, so I am not certain how much TM3 time I will be getting.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by jmg

Leasing the Model 3 was not possible in the past, but I heard Tesla was going to roll one out soon. I was wondering if the OP was perhaps one of the first.

For me, buying vs. leasing is a purely financial #s decision.
I'm not religious about it either way.
i3's are great to lease, and prohibitively expensive to buy (IMHO).
If Tesla Model S leasing terms are of any indication, Model 3 would be a more attractive buy vs. lease. Tesla does not push inventory with any kind of financing subsidies or incentives, and Tesla used-car values are pretty strong:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/12...e-competitors/

Originally Posted by Vitalität

If lease is available, that would be a good option within the warranty period. Owning one and dealing with issues is a bit scary especially now that consumers are not recommending Tesla anymore and they are considering closing stores.

I'm not scared of owning cars out of warranty.
And I don't think I ever owned a car that Consumer Reports recommended, at least not intentionally .

Tesla has the same 4 year/50K mile warranty as BMW, plus 8 years or 120,000 miles on the drive unit (battery, motors):
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

And there are far fewer things to break on Tesla drivetrain (and those are cheaper to repair), then on an M3 (DCT? Diff? S55? Oil cooler perforation?).
Suspension and brakes are the same.
Having said that, part of the reason that I did not jump on a Model 3 as soon as I got my reservation # (I had put deposit down a year or two when it was first announced) was to give Tesla time to work out first model year challenges. So I do expect some issues to crop up, as with any car, but not as many as I would have expected with the first semi-manually assembled cars.

As to store closures - does not concern me one bit.
Those were sales outlets, and while pleasant to visit, I don't plan to go back for anything other then the initial delivery (if they don't drop it off at my house, TBD).
Service centers are not effected, and are staying open. I have one ~8 miles from my house, down the road from a BMW dealership, so it's all good.

a

P.S.: I do pay attention to CR ratings of washers and dryers, but not cars.

[Re-Volted]

Originally Posted by afadeev

For me, buying vs. leasing is a purely financial #s decision.
I'm not religious about it either way.
i3's are great to lease, and prohibitively expensive to buy (IMHO).
If Tesla Model S leasing terms are of any indication, Model 3 would be a more attractive buy vs. lease. Tesla does not push inventory with any kind of financing subsidies or incentives, and Tesla used-car values are pretty strong:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/12...e-competitors/

I'm not scared of owning cars out of warranty.
And I don't think I ever owned a car that Consumer Reports recommended, at least not intentionally .

Tesla has the same 4 year/50K mile warranty as BMW, plus 8 years or 120,000 miles on the drive unit (battery, motors):
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

And there are far fewer things to break on Tesla drivetrain (and those are cheaper to repair), then on an M3 (DCT? Diff? S55? Oil cooler perforation?).
Suspension and brakes are the same.
Having said that, part of the reason that I did not jump on a Model 3 as soon as I got my reservation # (I had put deposit down a year or two when it was first announced) was to give Tesla time to work out first model year challenges. So I do expect some issues to crop up, as with any car, but not as many as I would have expected with the first semi-manually assembled cars.

As to store closures - does not concern me one bit.
Those were sales outlets, and while pleasant to visit, I don't plan to go back for anything other then the initial delivery (if they don't drop it off at my house, TBD).
Service centers are not effected, and are staying open. I have one ~8 miles from my house, down the road from a BMW dealership, so it's all good.

a

P.S.: I do pay attention to CR ratings of washers and dryers, but not cars.

Tesla doesn't need showrooms yet. As long as they can sell as many as they can build, merely with a website, they figure a savings of 6%, enough to pull the trigger on $35k cars. If I want to sit in one, I bet the service center would hook me up. For the same reason they don't need to offer M3 leases yet, nor for the MY soon to come. So while I wait, am looking for a '17 I3 BEV, should tide me over nicely.
That Consumer Reports thing is so stupid. Should have not recommended the early production cars and then come around with quality improvements now. Lost faith in their reports years ago.

[bagekko]

I doubt they will offer a Model 3 lease, if they do it will only be on the high end fully loaded performance versions. They would lose their shirt on a lease for the $35k Model 3.

They have big future financial problems looming because they are going to take a bath on the lease returns from the past 2 years.

Originally Posted by jmg

Leasing the Model 3 was not possible in the past, but I heard Tesla was going to roll one out soon. I was wondering if the OP was perhaps one of the first.

[bagekko]

Supposedly in the past the service/sales centers with nothing around sometimes would give test drives in customer cars that were in for service.

Originally Posted by Re-Volted

Tesla doesn't need showrooms yet. As long as they can sell as many as they can build, merely with a website, they figure a savings of 6%, enough to pull the trigger on $35k cars. If I want to sit in one, I bet the service center would hook me up. For the same reason they don't need to offer M3 leases yet, nor for the MY soon to come. So while I wait, am looking for a '17 I3 BEV, should tide me over nicely.
That Consumer Reports thing is so stupid. Should have not recommended the early production cars and then come around with quality improvements now. Lost faith in their reports years ago.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by bagekko

Supposedly in the past the service/sales centers with nothing around sometimes would give test drives in customer cars that were in for service.

Not sure about that one.
I wanted to see a TM3 car in my choice of exterior/interior colors, and the service center / dealership (co-located) had one customer car in just that combo.
They would not let me get within 1 foot of the car, or touch it.

I don't see why/how Tesla service center would treat their customers' property any differently than a BMW service center would.

Originally Posted by bagekko

I doubt they will offer a Model 3 lease, if they do it will only be on the high end fully loaded performance versions. They would lose their shirt on a lease for the $35k Model 3.

They have big future financial problems looming because they are going to take a bath on the lease returns from the past 2 years.

Not if they pass through the financing rate without subsidies (e.g.: MF of 0.00259 / APR of 6.22%, same as Toyota). If Tesla sets residual value close to the expected used car wholesale auction value, they would be NPV neutral or positive on leases.

BMW has historically been aggressive on subsidizing leases to push sales. 10x so with i3's.
MB less willing.
Audi far too conservative.
Tesla is downright indifferent to leases or any form of financing incentives.

Maybe when the TM3 demand slows down (worldwide!), and they need to move the inventory, they will get creative with financing and lease offers.

a

[tankertoad]

Afadeev, I just read an October posting from you:

"I had high hopes for Model 3, but test drove it last weekend, and left disappointed on many levels."

You said then that it handled "like a pig".

What changed your mind enough to convince you to buy?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by tankertoad

Afadeev, I just read an October posting from you:

"I had high hopes for Model 3, but test drove it last weekend, and left disappointed on many levels."

You said then that it handled "like a pig".

What changed your mind enough to convince you to buy?

I'm not sure what he drove back in Oct, but the Performance version of the Model 3 is anything but a pig. That thing hauls.

[tankertoad]

Originally Posted by jmg

I'm not sure what he drove back in Oct, but the Performance version of the Model 3 is anything but a pig. That thing hauls.

He posted that he did indeed drive the performance version. He had no complaints regarding the acceleration but the handling (and other issues) were another matter.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by tankertoad

Afadeev, I just read an October posting from you:

"I had high hopes for Model 3, but test drove it last weekend, and left disappointed on many levels."

You said then that it handled "like a pig".

What changed your mind enough to convince you to buy?

Great question.
It's two things:
1). Baseline expectations: I went into the October's test drive in the M3, looking for an M3 replacement. TM3D (AWD) fell short. I don't recall if I drove performance version, or just regular AWD car. This time around, I went in the i3, looking for i3 replacement. Any TM3 (performance or otherwise) was an easy improvement on an i3.
2). TM3-P has evolved for the better since the last fall. I don't know if I had an early release Performance car for that test drive, but unlike the previous car, the current test one had:

• Giant (re-badged) red Brembo brake calipers.
• Stiffer and lower suspension.
• Track mode available. This makes a surprising amount of difference, with much more aggressive front motor regen braking during off-throttle turn-in (0.3G of regen braking vs. 0.1G / 0.2G otherwise, depends on the setting). Consequently, the car is much more playful and eager to turn-in, with almost a hint of over-steer. Then it powers out of the turn with conviction, with no detectable under-steer.
• Grippy Michelin Pilot 4S tires.

Again, I did not truly push the TM3P on the test drive, and will defer judgement until after I take delivery and autoX/track the car.
But in "track mode", it handled great.

a

[tankertoad]

Can you envision keeping track mode engaged on the street or would that be too harsh/tiring?

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by tankertoad

Can you envision keeping track mode engaged on the street or would that be too harsh/tiring?

Just the opposite!

I LOVE aggressive regen braking in the i3, and the "track mode" in TM3P is the closest you get to that in a Tesla.

Given TM3P's static suspension (TM3P's is way more firm on 20" tires than that of basic 18" TM3), the "track mode" only effects regen braking, traction control, and throttle curve (to my knowledge). Thus there is really nothing "harsh" in it of which one could get "tired".


a

[FSXpilotChris]

Honestly, I think we all would rather drive a Model 3 than a BMW i3. I bought a used one just to experience what EVs would be like. Once I'm done paying my i3, I am definitely going to buy either a Model 3 or a Chevy Bolt. Both are a better value than an i3.

[tankertoad]

Originally Posted by FSXpilotChris

Honestly, I think we all would rather drive a Model 3 than a BMW i3. I bought a used one just to experience what EVs would be like. Once I'm done paying my i3, I am definitely going to buy either a Model 3 or a Chevy Bolt. Both are a better value than an i3.

But the suicide doors!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by FSXpilotChris

Honestly, I think we all would rather drive a Model 3 than a BMW i3. I bought a used one just to experience what EVs would be like. Once I'm done paying my i3, I am definitely going to buy either a Model 3 or a Chevy Bolt. Both are a better value than an i3.

Most Bolt leases I see are in the $200 to $350 range, which is not bad at all, and they can definitely be a better bargain with more range but lets not forget, I think the Bolt has a lower RV (55-57% iirc) compared to the 61% I got with the i3. With lease cash, loyalty, higher RV etc, my '15 i3 came out to $177/mo and my '18 came out to $199/mo both including tax and MSDs. With that in mind, the Bolt isn't ALWAYS the better deal.

As far as the range, I agree, if you primarily want range, the i3 is not the car to be looking at. However, the Bolt is FWD, and the i3 is RWD, and it is a much better driving experience at least in my opinion. I also appreciate the slightly more upscale interior of the i3 (very slight).

Styling is very subjective, but the Bolt looks like an economy car. It looks like a carolla hatchbach. It's safe, boring, unimpressive, completely mediocre and completely unremarkable. The i3, as weird and ugly as some people might think it looks, is at least interesting. A family friend's Bolt parked next to my i3 looks like a no-name toy car honestly. It's just run-of-the-mill dull.

Would I pay a premium for the i3? Probably not. I'm not paying a premium though.
Look at my two last lease deals. They beat the Bolt deals, so I took the cheaper car with less range, better interior, RWD, and styling that doesn't make me want to shove a fork in my jugular just to feel something other than boredom. Another note on the range: I commute 80 miles a day and I have a L2 charger at home. I don't really need 200 miles, so why pay for it?

Time will tell what the Model 3 leases will look like if they ever initiate a program. I would switch to a Model 3 for $300/mo with autopilot. Anything more than $300 and it's out of my budget for purely a weekday commuter car.

[baldyloxx]

Considering either Model3 or ModelY as next Vehicle. BMW is an excellent brand when it come to product content and quality in general.. But they seriously dropped the ball when it comes to progressing the i Line..

Hopefully the iNext fills the void.. We shall see