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      12-28-2013, 03:59 PM   #23
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I see that BMW pulled a fast one with their cheapo Business Navigation (the first time since the E46 in the USA) standard and $2500 for the Professional Navigation.
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      12-28-2013, 04:08 PM   #24
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Dang! That much for this experimental vehicle and inconvenience of severely limited range and space. What am I missing? How long before one breaks even? Tesla is laughing pretty hard.
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      12-28-2013, 05:34 PM   #25
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Any idea what's on page two of the price list?

FWIW, the pages are numbered, but page 2 is missing in the attached .pdf.

Might be a glitch in the original file generation, but more likely, it was purged from the document prior to posting (or, someone messed up!?).

Thoughts?
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      12-28-2013, 06:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Dang! That much for this experimental vehicle and inconvenience of severely limited range and space. What am I missing? How long before one breaks even? Tesla is laughing pretty hard.
Breaking even isn't really the purpose of this vehicle. The i3/stored kW is quite a bit more efficient than the Tesla - IOW, you get further per kW/hr on the i3 than you do on the Tesla. Adding a bigger battery means bigger tires, bigger springs, shocks, struts, overall strength, which means bigger batteries and decreased range for that extra weight. Eventually, no matter how many batteries you add, your range would start to go down. Just look at the Tesla's incremental increased range with the optional battery packs...their weight prevents you from getting the most range, as you're always carrying around lots more weight, even if you didn't need that range. BMW did a bunch of research and monitored the mini-e and other earlier vehicles to see how far they drove on a normal day, which set the range goal on the i3. That it doesn't meet everyone's goal is irrelevant and is one reason why there are numerous models of cars - no one model suits everyone. Why people beat on a specific one because it doesn't meet their needs is sort of like a child complaining he doesn't want to wear his boots when it's wet out, or trying to use an 8-ounce ball peen hammer when a 5-pound sledge is called for. Different strokes for different folks, and match the tool to the required task.

Their entire purpose in life is different...trying to compare them is futile. IF you need a compact, comfortable car for running around the city, you'd consider the i3. Almost anyone, at least in the USA, is likely to have a second vehicle for those longer trips, or race day, etc. Or, you can buy a package from BMW to ensure you have a suitable gasoline powered vehicle for your needs when the i3 won't work.

That you may not have a need for a vehicle like this is no reason to knock it for what it does do.
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      12-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #27
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i3 vs. 420i M sport....about the same price.
Which is the way to go?
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      12-28-2013, 08:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i
Dang! That much for this experimental vehicle and inconvenience of severely limited range and space. What am I missing? How long before one breaks even? Tesla is laughing pretty hard.
You are missing a lot and your post is useless accordingly because you don't know what you are talking about.

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      12-28-2013, 08:39 PM   #29
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i3 vs. 420i M sport....about the same price.
Which is the way to go?
If you're never going to get out of the city, the i3 may be more practical. It will not have the same fun factor if you can and will take it out of the city, though. Probably a loaded question. They are designed for two very different purposes. The M may be sitting in traffic, wasting expensive fuel most of the time. Gasoline is very likely much more expensive/mile driven than electricity to recharge the thing.
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      12-28-2013, 08:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Dang! That much for this experimental vehicle and inconvenience of severely limited range and space. What am I missing? How long before one breaks even? Tesla is laughing pretty hard.
Breaking even isn't really the purpose of this vehicle. The i3/stored kW is quite a bit more efficient than the Tesla - IOW, you get further per kW/hr on the i3 than you do on the Tesla. Adding a bigger battery means bigger tires, bigger springs, shocks, struts, overall strength, which means bigger batteries and decreased range for that extra weight. Eventually, no matter how many batteries you add, your range would start to go down. Just look at the Tesla's incremental increased range with the optional battery packs...their weight prevents you from getting the most range, as you're always carrying around lots more weight, even if you didn't need that range. BMW did a bunch of research and monitored the mini-e and other earlier vehicles to see how far they drove on a normal day, which set the range goal on the i3. That it doesn't meet everyone's goal is irrelevant and is one reason why there are numerous models of cars - no one model suits everyone. Why people beat on a specific one because it doesn't meet their needs is sort of like a child complaining he doesn't want to wear his boots when it's wet out, or trying to use an 8-ounce ball peen hammer when a 5-pound sledge is called for. Different strokes for different folks, and match the tool to the required task.

Their entire purpose in life is different...trying to compare them is futile. IF you need a compact, comfortable car for running around the city, you'd consider the i3. Almost anyone, at least in the USA, is likely to have a second vehicle for those longer trips, or race day, etc. Or, you can buy a package from BMW to ensure you have a suitable gasoline powered vehicle for your needs when the i3 won't work.

That you may not have a need for a vehicle like this is no reason to knock it for what it does do.
agree with most of what you stated. now why would you buy I3 over Diesel engine? Efficiency, space, performance is all there. I will wait for the real world testing to draw conclusion. Not knocking it down just not seeing the value right now.
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      12-28-2013, 09:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
agree with most of what you stated. now why would you buy I3 over Diesel engine? Efficiency, space, performance is all there. I will wait for the real world testing to draw conclusion. Not knocking it down just not seeing the value right now.
DIesels are good in traffic jams for at least efficiency, compared to a gasoline engine, but look at some of the cities of the world...they're clogged with cars and the air quality is horrible. INternal combustion engines in whatever flavor, just aren't great in a city (well, maybe a CNG, their exhaust is much cleaner, but it's still putting out a lot of greenhouse gasses).

SOmeday, we may have the infrastructure and reliability and range with fuel cell powered electric vehicles...first ones for limited release are likely to come in 2015. But it will be a long time before they are able to be refueled anywhere easily.

If you can only support one vehicle, and are concerned with efficiency, diesels are usually better than gasoline powered. They can be high powered, but they still don't have the allure of racing engine speeds and engine sounds people associate with a performance vehicle.

It all comes down to your needs, and the conditions and restraints you need and want for your specific application.

I have a gasoline powered BMW...I would very much have preferred to get it with a diesel, but BMW chooses not to sell it that way in the USA. The majority of my driving is short trips - not very good for an internal combustion engine. I plan to keep it, but am seriously considering augmenting it with an i3 that really doesn't care about short trips and won't care about polluting the oil with the short trips or corroding the exhaust system, or taking awhile to get comfortable. With the i3, you can condition the interior while it is still parked, and ideally, while still on the charger, so you leave with a fully comfortable cabin, and a full charge on the batteries. Trying to do that with an internal combustion engine, and you'll waste a lot of fuel, and run time on the engine. You only get to spin the crankshaft and move those pistons around so many times...ideally, that only happens while you're moving, and only a little bit while stopped. An electric car doesn't really care.
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      12-29-2013, 07:16 AM   #32
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Volkswagen Canada: If you drive less than 25km /day you should not drive diesel.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle4099688/


But again short distance is also bad for gas powered hence hybrid or electric is better.

The idea is consumer choice more the better, the market will decide.

Another viewpoint is occupant safety in a crash. Generally, a larger vehicle is preferred. As the streets are clogged with more vehicles one would expect more accidents.
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      12-29-2013, 08:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
We just went by the dealership to pick up plates for our crashed 5-series (another story). They had three or more i3s there for CES and we drove one.

I like the way it drives and I like regenerative braking. The braking makes it possible to use one pedal in some instances. The car seems like it will stand still on flat land without a foot on the brake. The instant torque is great; the car accelerates without fuss.

The car is plenty roomy; there were four of us in there (my daughter was behind me with plenty of room). Getting into the car is different. It is almost a slight step up like a crossover.

The materials inside are different. It isn't an issue when you know the story. The trim level was the one with partial leather seating. That may be Giga.

My wife didn't immediately call it ugly which is a good thing. I have no doubts she would choose it for quick trips to the store since gas will not be an issue. It may be in my future.

Does anyone know the cost of electricity, on average, to "fill up" this car?
Electric prices vary greatly around the country. The i3 will use about 20-22kWh's of electricity to drive 100 miles. The national average for electricity is 11 cents per kWh so figure around $2.50 to drive 100 miles for the average American.

Check your electricity bill to see what you are paying per kWh if you don't already know. Chances are if you live in a major metropolitan area you are paying more than the average American though. Here in NJ we pay 17-18 cents per kWh so it would cost me about $4.00 to drive 100 miles. But that would be if I didn't have a solar array which makes all my electricity so I can drive my i3 as much as I want without worrying about refueling cost!
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      12-29-2013, 10:05 AM   #34
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The price is not bad for the advanced technology in the car.
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      12-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #35
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FWIW, all internal combustion engines can have problems if they are continually used for short trips...both for efficiency and longevity, they only work best once they are fully warmed up, and a short trip may get the temp gauge up to full, normal value, but it takes awhile longer at that temp to purge it of unused gas, water and other byproducts of that combustion process...thus, electric really is a path to longevity if the car will be used in that manner. A hybrid may or may not end up better, as a plug-in hybrid that is requested to accelerate greater than a certain rate, or exceeds the battery capacity, or drive at a higher speed, the motor may come on, and it may end up with the same short trip problems of a normal car.

Battery tech is improving...waiting for a few years may give you a battery replacement with much greater energy density and thus range, or, a savings in weight, which is equivalent, not counting the wear improvement if the whole package becomes lighter.

Short trips with a diesel, especially in colder temperatures, will wreck havoc with the battery life...it takes a fair amount to turn over a diesel when cold, and short trips may not recharge it fully; eventually, you have a dead battery.

We may never have a vehicle that does everything well. Just like you wouldn't expect a car to carry the same load as a big pickup truck, you shouldn't expect a car optimized for city use to carry you to grandma's house across many states.

If your pattern of use matches, the i3 will fill that need for transport very well...if it doesn't, you either will have a second vehicle, or forgo the benefits of that platform and make compromises. Your choice, your pocketbook. Just like a pair of pliers will remove a nut, the proper sized wrench does it better and the nut will look better and last longer.
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      02-16-2014, 01:17 AM   #36
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Seems roomy, green and economical, but not a lot of mass for safety... just worry about other drivers.
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      02-18-2014, 05:55 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
FWIW, all internal combustion engines can have problems if they are continually used for short trips...both for efficiency and longevity, they only work best once they are fully warmed up, and a short trip may get the temp gauge up to full, normal value, but it takes awhile longer at that temp to purge it of unused gas, water and other byproducts of that combustion process...thus, electric really is a path to longevity if the car will be used in that manner. A hybrid may or may not end up better, as a plug-in hybrid that is requested to accelerate greater than a certain rate, or exceeds the battery capacity, or drive at a higher speed, the motor may come on, and it may end up with the same short trip problems of a normal car.

Battery tech is improving...waiting for a few years may give you a battery replacement with much greater energy density and thus range, or, a savings in weight, which is equivalent, not counting the wear improvement if the whole package becomes lighter.

Short trips with a diesel, especially in colder temperatures, will wreck havoc with the battery life...it takes a fair amount to turn over a diesel when cold, and short trips may not recharge it fully; eventually, you have a dead battery.

We may never have a vehicle that does everything well. Just like you wouldn't expect a car to carry the same load as a big pickup truck, you shouldn't expect a car optimized for city use to carry you to grandma's house across many states.

If your pattern of use matches, the i3 will fill that need for transport very well...if it doesn't, you either will have a second vehicle, or forgo the benefits of that platform and make compromises. Your choice, your pocketbook. Just like a pair of pliers will remove a nut, the proper sized wrench does it better and the nut will look better and last longer.
I think you are really over exaggerating the effects of short trips on a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. Yes, electric cars are better suited for the city environment, and will the engine in an ICE-powered car fair better in an suburban environment, yes, but it will not die working in the city. A trip of a bit more than five miles is usually adequate to keep a petro-fueled engine healthy. In most cities heavy traffic means a good bit of idling (even for just 5 miles), which helps warm the engine up and rid it of fuel and water toxicants you are so concerned about (which short oil change intervals solves anyway).

But with that said, why does one need a car for true city life anyway? Most cities offer excellent public transportation, or city dwelling usually means most life essentials and entertainment is a short walk away; making a car pointless. Oh, one would like a car to get away on a trip for the weekend? Then where does the i3 help in that situation with its 80 mile limited electric range? And where can you securely plug in the i3 for its over-night charge cycle? Yes, the i3 will suit some people, but the ICE-powered vehicle suits MORE of the general population needs, which makes them plentiful, and thus inexpensive to manufacture and support with common infrastructure.
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      02-18-2014, 09:55 AM   #38
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      02-18-2014, 10:12 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
But with that said, why does one need a car for true city life anyway? Most cities offer excellent public transportation, or city dwelling usually means most life essentials and entertainment is a short walk away; making a car pointless. Oh, one would like a car to get away on a trip for the weekend? Then where does the i3 help in that situation with its 80 mile limited electric range? And where can you securely plug in the i3 for its over-night charge cycle? Yes, the i3 will suit some people, but the ICE-powered vehicle suits MORE of the general population needs, which makes them plentiful, and thus inexpensive to manufacture and support with common infrastructure.
I work three miles from home, in a crowded downtown area with drivers that seem to enjoy tormenting bikes. I went a little over a year after selling my M Coupe with no car. I rode a bike either to my office or to the closest light rail station a little over a mile from my house. It works, but isn't exactly fun when it's 105 or 20 and/or raining. It's also hard to claim a lane in rush hour traffic and I've been riding bikes for 30+ years in urban areas.

My sister moved out of the country and I bought her beater, a Mazda 3. It's fine for my current commute, but barely gets up to coolant temp on my commute and never gets full oil temp, meaning I run full synthetic and change it and the plugs much more frequently than if I had a longer commute. I frequently never sit at one light on my commute and never get above 45 mph.

We also got a dog. The dog goes to day care twice a week. She really wouldn't like being in a basket on a bike, and it would make it pretty unsafe. So ideally, I need a car to get her there, which is about a four mile total commute.

I also ride bikes for fun, nearly all of the trails I mountain bike at are within forty miles and many already have charging at the trailhead. The i3 can easily hold two bikes inside and I can use the HOV lanes when two of us are going.

My wife's commute isn't much different than mine, and her last 135i had noticeable carbon buildup at 42k miles and we used it for longer weekend trips and road trips, so it at least got driven at full operating temps much more often. I'm sure the X1 won't be any better. Direct injection and short trips really aren't friends. Why add a second car to the mix when we could get a city car?

If I go troll a Ford F350 site about how I think driving in cities in duallies is absurd, will you go easy on Tesla and i3 threads? We get it, you don't understand, but many of us do.

Last edited by Red Bread; 02-18-2014 at 10:20 AM..
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      02-18-2014, 03:50 PM   #40
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FWIW, while my small city does have public transport, buses are at least an hour apart, and don't run that late, then, they don't go all that may places. When 9 out of 10 trips are only a mile or so each way, with a cooling off stop at the destination, an ICE is a terrible thing...the thing is running rich all of the time to warm up the catalytic converter and the byproducts are lousy. Something that works just fine from cold, like the i3, without the expense of oil changes (unless you have the REx) or sparkplugs, or exhaust system to need work really does make sense.

The studies have shown, the average commute is easily handled by the range of the i3, even in the cold, and extra range available in the warmer weather when you may more frequently wish to take a side-trip.

I understand that many people may not be able to support multiple vehicles, but then, those probably wouldn't consider the i3 as an only car either. I'm still awaiting an opportunity to check one out for those things that are important to me...maybe within the next month or so, the local dealer may get one for test drives...then, I'll decide if it is a viable option. I have to fit, and my folding recumbent trike needs to as well, otherwise, it's a no-go. If both of those work, I'll probably be ordering one.
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      02-18-2014, 07:27 PM   #41
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It's not about breaking even. It's about not using Gasoline, a limited earth resource.
That somehow is less expensive than milk...
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      02-18-2014, 07:30 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jadnashuanh View Post
FWIW, while my small city does have public transport, buses are at least an hour apart, and don't run that late, then, they don't go all that may places. When 9 out of 10 trips are only a mile or so each way, with a cooling off stop at the destination, an ICE is a terrible thing...the thing is running rich all of the time to warm up the catalytic converter and the byproducts are lousy. Something that works just fine from cold, like the i3, without the expense of oil changes (unless you have the REx) or sparkplugs, or exhaust system to need work really does make sense.

The studies have shown, the average commute is easily handled by the range of the i3, even in the cold, and extra range available in the warmer weather when you may more frequently wish to take a side-trip.

I understand that many people may not be able to support multiple vehicles, but then, those probably wouldn't consider the i3 as an only car either. I'm still awaiting an opportunity to check one out for those things that are important to me...maybe within the next month or so, the local dealer may get one for test drives...then, I'll decide if it is a viable option. I have to fit, and my folding recumbent trike needs to as well, otherwise, it's a no-go. If both of those work, I'll probably be ordering one.
A 535xiGT is close to the price of a 60KwH Tesla S. Why not consider that?
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      02-18-2014, 07:39 PM   #43
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A 535xiGT is close to the price of a 60KwH Tesla S. Why not consider that?
My trike won't fit into a Tesla, and, even with the range, trying to go anywhere an ICE can go, it just doesn't cut it. So, I'll likely have an ICE until they can get the battery technology improved for faster recharge and longer range. While Tesla's battery exchange program is interesting and fast, there aren't many of them around, with the same issue as with the recharging stations. On a trip, you can generally find fuel anywhere...it will be a long time before you can say the same thing on fast recharges. A fuel cell would be interesting, but then, you still have the issue of filling stations. And, it takes a fair amount of energy to break the H2 from whatever it is attached to, either NG, or water are the two more common sources.
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      01-24-2015, 09:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ron_jeremy View Post
Actually electric cars in Norway are also cheap.
The I3 cost about as much as the leaf.
Everything else is of course rip off!
Leaf has just dropped its price 50% because it didn't sell and they have dumped the Australian ordered Leafs in New Zealand but they have not sold here as well.

Leaf only has 3 year battery warranty. BMW has 8 years battery warranty, 5 years car warranty and 3 years free serving.
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