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      09-14-2021, 01:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I think Tesla's hardware edge right now is the dedicated EV platform that other automakers are catching up on.

I would think 900lbs extra is a disadvantage in terms of range and operating
How do you know the weight is specifically in the platform and not the batteries or body?
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      09-14-2021, 02:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
How do you know the weight is specifically in the platform and not the batteries or body?
My comment was "I would think 900lbs extra is a disadvantage in terms of range and operating cost".

So what is your question?

A platform is chassis + battery + components.

i4 is 4800lb, model 3 AWD is 3800lb, both around 300 miles.

So if i4 weight is reduced 900-1000lb, my thinking is that its range and operating cost will also be improved.

Last edited by bavarianride; 09-14-2021 at 02:29 PM..
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      09-14-2021, 02:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
My comment was "I would think 900lbs extra is a disadvantage in terms of range and operating cost".

So what is your question?
The two sequential statements formed my question. You assign an edge based on a unique platform and then cite a weight disadvantage. I’m asking how you know the platform provides that edge, with regard to the weight you mention.
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      09-14-2021, 02:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
The two sequential statements formed my question. You assign an edge based on a unique platform and then cite a weight disadvantage. I’m asking how you know the platform provides that edge, with regard to the weight you mention.
A platform is chassis + battery + component.

And you skipped the next sequential statement:

"E.g. 900lbs less can squeeze extra 100 miles of range, and/or 4-5 miles/kWh instead of 3 miles."
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      09-14-2021, 02:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
A platform is chassis + battery + component.

And you skipped the next sequential statement:

"E.g. 900lbs less can squeeze extra 100 miles of range, and/or 4-5 miles/kWh instead of 3 miles."
No, a platform is not those things and “chassis” is an anachronism related to body on frame architecture. Batteries and components rest upon or are integrated into the platform. The platform is comprised of stampings for the floorpan, dash (a term mistakenly used commonly for the instrument panel when the dash is actually the stamping separating the engine compartment), cowl, and in traditional terms, engine box. I spent enough time in my multi-decades auto career in stamping and assembly plants and with body and structure engineers to know this.

The point is that we have many here claiming to be informed about the effects of the platform when, in fact, we/they have no such information at this time. A tear-down or spec from BMW would be needed to know the weight effect of the actual platform.
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      09-14-2021, 03:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
How do you know the weight is specifically in the platform and not the batteries or body?
I have the same type of question for the poster.

I don't think the weight is the lack of experience in chassis deign for EV.
I think the weight is a compromise since the same same platform serves as a basis for all 3 and 4 series cars. Those cars can be ICE, hybrid or EV.

That means you carry some extra weight to make it a universal platform. I could be wrong but:
The i8 weighed in at ~3,600 lbs
The 2022 740 weighs in at ~4,200
The ICE 440i x-Drive Grand Coupe in at ~4,169
The i4 M50 in at ~4,800.

Just for comparison a Fiat 500e weighs ~2,980 and an Abarth weighs ~2,500 pounds.

So the i4 M50 is roughly 600lbs heavier than the equivalent ICE car.

I think the 500e/Abarth comparison is good because the Abarth is 83% of the 500e.
The M440i X-Drive is 86% of the i4 M50.

EV's that share ICE platforms look to be heavy; even across manufacturers.

I personally don't care really.
I have never looked at the curb weight on a car and said "Ooh, that looks heavy, I'm not buying that".

Those that don't want the i4 M50 don't have to buy it. BMW doesn't seem to have an issue selling it or the iX since the lead times are now pushed into the second half of 2022 for all ix and i4 variants.

There might be some overlap of buyers between the TM3 and the i4; but my guess is that there are BMW folks like me that wouldn't touch a TM3.

I also did some research and Tesla dumped the Raven suspension from the Model 3 due to cost.

I just want BMW to let me order mine.
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      09-14-2021, 04:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
No, a platform is not those things and “chassis” is an anachronism related to body on frame architecture. Batteries and components rest upon or are integrated into the platform. The platform is comprised of stampings for the floorpan, dash (a term mistakenly used commonly for the instrument panel when the dash is actually the stamping separating the engine compartment), cowl, and in traditional terms, engine box. I spent enough time in my multi-decades auto career in stamping and assembly plants and with body and structure engineers to know this.

The point is that we have many here claiming to be informed about the effects of the platform when, in fact, we/they have no such information at this time. A tear-down or spec from BMW would be needed to know the weight effect of the actual platform.
That is fair, your definition of platform is the traditional(ICE) one(retrofitting), my view of dedicated EV platform is similar to the one below(e.g. battery is part of it).

And it looks like i4 should be the hybrid platform.

My comment of 900lb extra is unrelated to how weights go to which parts, but how dedicated EV platform hits that weight savings, such that customers can materially get extra range, and/or save fuel(electricity) cost.

"Retrofitting: Manufacturers modify existing internal combustion architecture to build an electric car.

Hybrid Platforms: Many modern car architectures have been designed to pair with modular combustion, hybrid, and pure electric powertrains.

Dedicated EV Platforms: Most manufacturers are (or will be) moving to dedicated EV platforms over the next decade. These are basically skateboards consisting of wheels and a battery pack, and offer maximum design flexibility.

https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g358...cle-platforms/
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      09-14-2021, 04:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I personally don't care really.
I have never looked at the curb weight on a car and said "Ooh, that looks heavy, I'm not buying that".
Check this out, it talks about how EV weight affects range, and likely operating costs.

https://medium.com/@martinwelzl/actu...e-d432d85f366e
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      09-14-2021, 05:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
That is fair, your definition of platform is the traditional(ICE) one(retrofitting), my view of dedicated EV platform is similar to the one below(e.g. battery is part of it).

And it looks like i4 should be the hybrid platform.

My comment of 900lb extra is unrelated to how weights go to which parts, but how dedicated EV platform hits that weight savings, such that customers can materially get extra range, and/or save fuel(electricity) cost.

"Retrofitting: Manufacturers modify existing internal combustion architecture to build an electric car.

Hybrid Platforms: Many modern car architectures have been designed to pair with modular combustion, hybrid, and pure electric powertrains.

Dedicated EV Platforms: Most manufacturers are (or will be) moving to dedicated EV platforms over the next decade. These are basically skateboards consisting of wheels and a battery pack, and offer maximum design flexibility.

https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g358...cle-platforms/
If referencing that article, I can understand your position. When I check on the writer, the value of his input is quite suspect, having become an auto writer after a stint in sports reporting. Having spent lots of time at press events for new vehicle launches, I find that some writers do their best to represent reality while others put their own spin on information or try to understand information as best they can. I doubt his journalist's understanding has benefitted from much time working with body engineers. The giveaway here in his awkward writing was the jumbled linkage of "platform" to "basically skateboards" which he then goes on to define as including a battery and wheels! "Basically" is the clue of the unsteady logic in writing or speech. BTW, no one has ever defined any platform anywhere as including the actual wheels, as he does.

In any event, whether the weight result of the i4 is due to the actual platform and batteries individually or collectively, we do not know at this time. Everything up to now is pure speculation, perhaps the inevitable product of forums. Once Sandy Munro gets his hands on one to take apart, we will see from where in the vehicle the weight comes versus any comparable vehicles. But, more importantly for me, will be what is the driving experience and is the range sufficient for my needs, not whether is it best-in-class.
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      09-14-2021, 05:29 PM   #32
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It's not speculation that BMW's approach has been to make a platform that can take multiple powertrains.

It's also not speculation that failing to optimize any platform for its powertrain will result in compromises of many types.

It's also not speculation that BMW's head brass squandered the technological lead BMW had when the i3 was introduced, even though the i3 platform was/is advanced, if too expensive for wider-market success:

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...706-story.html

BMW has ample resources to engineer itself back to parity with best-in-class with regards to EV platforms, and they will, eventually.
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      09-14-2021, 05:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
It's not speculation that BMW's approach has been to make a platform that can take multiple powertrains.

It's also not speculation that failing to optimize any platform for its powertrain will result in compromises of many types.

It's also not speculation that BMW's head brass squandered the technological lead BMW had when the i3 was introduced.:

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...706-story.html

BMW has ample resources to get itself back to parity with regards to EV platforms, and they will, eventually.
How can the point of this discussion be so widely missed?

The point remains that no one here can identify the numerical or even relative weight contribution of the various systems in the i4. No one here can point by part number on the BOM where a specific compromise was made yet. All the self-appointed experts are simply guessing and making argumentative and conclusory statements...and a first year law student would know the value of those.
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      09-14-2021, 06:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
How can the point of this discussion be so widely missed?

The point remains that no one here can identify the numerical or even relative weight contribution of the various systems in the i4. No one here can point by part number on the BOM where a specific compromise was made yet. All the self-appointed experts are simply guessing and making argumentative and conclusory statements...and a first year law student would know the value of those.
I would say missing BOM and teardown details are just some aspects of the whole picture, while many other points can still be discussed for the benefits of general audience.
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      09-14-2021, 06:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
...no one here can identify the numerical or even relative weight contribution of the various systems in the i4. No one here can point by part number on the BOM where a specific compromise was made yet.
Got it.

So discussion of any type that doesn't involve part numbers or BOMs is invalid.

/forums.

(cue eyeroll)
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      09-14-2021, 06:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
while many other points can still be discussed for the benefits of general audience.
Some aren't interested in discussion - they're only interested in calling other people's comments invalid.

Not anyone in THIS thread, OBV....
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      09-14-2021, 06:38 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Got it.

So discussion of any type that doesn't involve part numbers or BOMs is invalid.

/forums.

(cue eyeroll)
Nope. Still don’t get it. Conclusions and argumentation devoid of facts are of no substance. Come with facts to support opinions and be taken seriously. As of now, no one knows the facts of how/why the car weighs what it does. Flapping wings to blame the platform without data is useless. The OP’s question that started the thread remains unanswered and unanswerable until we have data.
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      09-14-2021, 06:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Come with facts to support opinions and be taken seriously.
Continuing to ignore the facts that have been presented doesn't make them any less factual.
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      09-14-2021, 06:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Some aren't interested in discussion - they're only interested in calling other people's comments invalid.

Not anyone in THIS thread, OBV....
Again, not true. Discussion is fine. I certainly engage in it. If someone wants to share their philosophical, moral, or religious objection to a versatile platform strategy, let's have at it. If we have an actual automotive body engineer here, let's have their expert input. But, there are posts on this thread that presume to know the answer to the OP's question of weight and assign it to "bad design" or a non-dedicated platform. Without facts to support that supposition, that claim is meaningless and misleading and, until supportable, invalid. That is what I find objectionable.
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      09-14-2021, 06:52 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Continuing to ignore the facts that have been presented doesn't make them any less factual.
What facts? Who has the unladen weight of the platform that several here accuse as the culprit? We are discussing weight. If the answer is an opinion and not a number, it's not relevant.
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      09-14-2021, 07:25 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
What facts? Who has the unladen weight of the platform that several here accuse as the culprit? We are discussing weight. If the answer is an opinion and not a number, it's not relevant.
OP's post#1 says 4800lb, which is the curb weight, and that is published data from BMW that does not need BOM nor teardown details.

Focusing the discussion towards weights of floorpan, cowl, front rails, etc. per your definition of platform appears to be missing the point, namely, that hefty 4800lb likely does not help fuel efficiency.

E.g. BMW publishes 300 miles of range for 81.5kWh(usable), or 3.65 miles/kWh.

The i3@3000lb with 30kWh(usable) goes 150 miles, or 5 miles/kWh.

Tesla Model 3 is around 4 miles/KWh, or 26kWh/100 miles per EPA.

So yes, BMW has a dedicated EV platform (i3 with CFRP) that are 20-25% more efficient than Model 3, while BMW's hybrid platform(e.g. i4 ) is not based on published numbers.
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      09-14-2021, 07:40 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
OP's post#1 says 4800lb, which is the curb weight, and that is published data from BMW that does not need BOM nor teardown details.

Focusing the discussion towards weights of floorpan, cowl, front rails, etc. per your definition of platform appears to be missing the point, namely, that hefty 4800lb likely does not help fuel efficiency.

E.g. BMW publishes 300 miles of range for 81.5kWh(usable), or 3.65 miles/kWh.

The i3@3000lb with 30kWh(usable) goes 150 miles, or 5 miles/kWh.

Tesla Model 3 is around 4 miles/KWh, or 26kWh/100 miles per EPA.

So yes, BMW has a dedicated EV platform (i3 with CFRP) that are 20-25% more efficient than Model 3, while BMW's hybrid platform(e.g. i4 ) is not based on published numbers.
You are correct about the total vehicle weight and that increased weight has an undesirable effect on range. No disagreement there. Part of the i3 effect is the use of CF in the body, beyond the platform. The problem occurred elsewhere on this thread where the versatility of the i4 platform is singled out as the root cause of any additional weight versus comparable models, without any facts of platform weight. Had the discussion focused on total vehicle weight, as you show here, rather than some attempting to single out the platform without knowing actual part weight, it would not have gone so far off the rails.
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      09-14-2021, 08:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
You are correct about the total vehicle weight and that increased weight has an undesirable effect on range. No disagreement there. Part of the i3 effect is the use of CF in the body, beyond the platform. The problem occurred elsewhere on this thread where the versatility of the i4 platform is singled out as the root cause of any additional weight versus comparable models, without any facts of platform weight. Had the discussion focused on total vehicle weight, as you show here, rather than some attempting to single out the platform without knowing actual part weight, it would not have gone so far off the rails.
I am still patiently waiting for someone to produce an EV sedan that:
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less

That is my open-source spec for EV engineers to hit.
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      09-14-2021, 08:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I am still patiently waiting for someone to produce an EV sedan that:
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less



That is my open-source spec for EV engineers to hit.
I was about to suggest the 3rd vehicle expected from Lucid might work for you until I got to #9.
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