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      09-14-2021, 08:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
I was about to suggest the 3rd vehicle expected from Lucid might work for you until I got to #9.
I saw the Lucid demo car, the sales said appointment is needed to just sit in it.

The $160k 1000HP 2-second 0-60 estate edition(?) will ship by end of year.

The other 3 can be ordered with staggered delivery throughout 2022.

The cheapest Lucid is not bad compared to Tesla/other EVs, if number 1 to 8 are rock solid then number 9 can be readjusted.
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      09-14-2021, 08:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I saw the Lucid demo car, the sales said appointment is needed to just sit in it.

The $160k 1000HP estate edition(?) will ship by end of year.

The other 3 can be ordered with staggered delivery throughout 2022.

The cheapest Lucid is not bad compared to Tesla/other EVs, if number 1 to 8 are rock solid then number 8 can be readjusted.
They seem on top of their game so far. First car is that large sedan, next is an SUV shaped body on the same platform. Third is supposedly a D-segment sedan. I hope it's a liftgate. Right now the black only interior for the base trim and conventional trunk are deal-breakers for the current new model.
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      09-14-2021, 08:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I am still patiently waiting for someone to produce an EV sedan that:
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less

That is my open-source spec for EV engineers to hit.
Genuinely curious, is there a gas car that fits those requirements? I thought maybe some kind of Camry, Accord or Charger but not quite.
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      09-14-2021, 09:18 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Genuinely curious, is there a gas car that fits those requirements? I thought maybe some kind of Camry, Accord or Charger but not quite.
Great question, so let's take a look in context of G20 330i:

number 3, 4 and 8 are irrelevant for ICE.
number 1, 2, 6, 7 are basically 330i.
number 9 is doable if incentives are good.
number 5 0-60 in 5 seconds is not doable now but this open-source spec is somewhat forward projecting.

My lightly optioned($1k-ish) 330i was $37k + tax + fee after incentives, so a bare-bone base could hit $36k(close enough to $35k ).
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less

Last edited by bavarianride; 09-14-2021 at 09:44 PM..
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      09-14-2021, 10:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
15-yr/150k miles emission warranty was available for F30 330i up till 2017, it is wishful thinking BMW will do the same if not mandated by law.
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
So here in the USA and specifically Ca. Emissions warranties are 8yr/80K miles.
After 100K miles they deem the car as "spent" or the equivalent.
Unless the government mandates or competition gets crazy; there won't be an extension unless you pay.

Now the 3500lbs is interesting. They already do that in the 5 and 7 series.
They just haven't deemed it cost effective.
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      09-14-2021, 10:56 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
So here in the USA and specifically Ca. Emissions warranties are 8yr/80K miles.
After 100K miles they deem the car as "spent" or the equivalent.
Unless the government mandates or competition gets crazy; there won't be an extension unless you pay.

Now the 3500lbs is interesting. They already do that in the 5 and 7 series.
They just haven't deemed it cost effective.
G20 330i ICE curb weight should be around 3500-3600lb, which is what Tesla Model 3 SR targets too.

F30 328i and F30 330i till 2017 has 15 years/150000 miles PZEV emission warranty, but PZEV expires in 2018.

Starting 2018, 15 years/150000 miles TZEV emission warranty is available for F30 330e and G20 330e PHEV.

These lucrative emission warranties cover lots of expensive components, but are only available in PZEV/TZEV states(CA is one of them).

The covered components are more extensive than 8 years/80000 miles CA emission warranty.

E.g. timing chain of 2016 N26 and 2017 B46 and 2018 B48(PHEV) are covered under PZEV/TZEV for 15 years/150000 miles, that is a very very big deal.
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      09-14-2021, 11:03 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Unless the government mandates or competition gets crazy; there won't be an extension unless you pay.
To re-emphasize, if today u buy a G20 330e PHEV in CA, it comes free from factory with 15 years/150000 miles emission warranty.
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      09-15-2021, 11:00 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I am still patiently waiting for someone to produce an EV sedan that:
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less

That is my open-source spec for EV engineers to hit.
Tesla Model 3 SR+ specs are surprisingly close to all of your requirements.

The 2 it misses are the 15-year battery warranty and the range. Presuming that you can charge at home overnight, the only time that extra range is truly relevant is road trips, and even then, most find that road-tripping in an EV with appropriate charging network is extremely pleasant, if different than what they've been accustomed to.

Regarding "thermal runaway", read this:

https://insideevs.com/news/528123/te...ersus-gas-car/
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      09-15-2021, 11:53 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Tesla Model 3 SR+ specs are surprisingly close to all of your requirements.

The 2 it misses are the 15-year battery warranty and the range. Presuming that you can charge at home overnight, the only time that extra range is truly relevant is road trips, and even then, most find that road-tripping in an EV with appropriate charging network is extremely pleasant, if different than what they've been accustomed to.

Regarding "thermal runaway", read this:

https://insideevs.com/news/528123/te...ersus-gas-car/
Model 3 SR+ hits number 5, 6, 7 but misses on 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9.

SR+ is 3800lb (300lb above number 1), and can only get 250+ miles, with 60kWh.

That battery can be charged with v3 supercharger in 30 minutes, but surely Tesla does not offer 15 yrs/150000 miles 90% capacity warranty.

500+ miles of range likely adds another 500lb on SR+, maybe around 4300lb?

And thermal runaway vs. gasoline fire has one huge difference, namely, gasoline fire can be put out, but thermal runaway can't. That is a very critical safety issue that is ignored by most.

And when I bought my 2021 330i, the SR+ was $2k($42.5k total) more expensive than 330i(and Tesla had no car to deliver).
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less
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      09-15-2021, 12:11 PM   #54
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On the subject of 500+ miles of range, my thinking is that a day of 300-400 miles driving on road trips look reasonable, and 500+ miles provides flexibility such that no supercharger stop is needed in the middle of the day.

And with temperature drop and elevation climb, that 500+ easily goes to 250+ in real life scenarios.
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      09-15-2021, 12:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
G20 330i ICE curb weight should be around 3500-3600lb, which is what Tesla Model 3 SR targets too.

F30 328i and F30 330i till 2017 has 15 years/150000 miles PZEV emission warranty, but PZEV expires in 2018.

Starting 2018, 15 years/150000 miles TZEV emission warranty is available for F30 330e and G20 330e PHEV.

These lucrative emission warranties cover lots of expensive components, but are only available in PZEV/TZEV states(CA is one of them).

The covered components are more extensive than 8 years/80000 miles CA emission warranty.

E.g. timing chain of 2016 N26 and 2017 B46 and 2018 B48(PHEV) are covered under PZEV/TZEV for 15 years/150000 miles, that is a very very big deal.
Yeah, I took a look and there is a specific section for PZEV and for hybrids with batteries that fall under the classification. They get a 10 year/150K battery warranty also.

In Ca. the battery warranty is now 10yr/100K on current EV.
In 2026 it goes to 15yr/150K under the proposed rules.

Nice thing about EV motors as they don't wear much at all. I haven't heard any stories about motor replacement in any EV.


Good news since battery packs cost more than engines in ICE cars.
It's criminal what Tesla wants to charge for replacement batteries in the Model S and they want to yours as a core.

Been seeing stories of broken coolant nipples and they want $20K
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      09-15-2021, 01:30 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Yeah, I took a look and there is a specific section for PZEV and for hybrids with batteries that fall under the classification. They get a 10 year/150K battery warranty also.

In Ca. the battery warranty is now 10yr/100K on current EV.
In 2026 it goes to 15yr/150K under the proposed rules.

Nice thing about EV motors as they don't wear much at all. I haven't heard any stories about motor replacement in any EV.


Good news since battery packs cost more than engines in ICE cars.
It's criminal what Tesla wants to charge for replacement batteries in the Model S and they want to yours as a core.

Been seeing stories of broken coolant nipples and they want $20K
Yes repair costs of EV(e.g. Tesla) can be exuberant, hence my strategy is to pick my 2021 330i aka German Accord, and to sidestep the ever changing EV tech and landscape for another 10 years.

Yeah the alphabet soup is fascinating:

PZEV (partial zero emission vehicle) expires 2017. Coverage is 15 years/150000 miles on ICE components.

AT-PZEV(advantage technology PZEV) starts 2018, and requires at least 10 miles of EV range to qualify. Coverage is 15 years/150000 miles on ICE components, and 10 years/150000 miles on battery.

TZEV(transitionary ZEV) is another name of AT-PZEV.

And plug-in hybrid electric vehicle(PHEV) qualifies as AT-PZEV.

Last edited by bavarianride; 09-15-2021 at 01:44 PM..
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      09-15-2021, 02:18 PM   #57
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Looking at a different comparator, I was looking at the VW ID.4 GTX - a dedicate EV platform, dual motor, weighs in at 2224kg vs i4 M50 2290kg (EU rating allowing for 75kg driver), similar range. Also able to cater for four burley Bavarians without snapping in half
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      09-15-2021, 02:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Model 3 SR+ hits number 5, 6, 7 but misses on 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9.
Right - that's why I wrote "surprisingly close"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
And thermal runaway vs. gasoline fire has one huge difference...
So you're worried about the vanishingly small chances of a car fire, even though the chances of such a fire are orders of magnitude LESS with an EV than with your ICEV....

Probably best if you never cross the street as a pedestrian either, as your chances of being hit by a car are far higher than your chances of experiencing a car fire...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
On the subject of 500+ miles of range, my thinking is that a day of 300-400 miles driving on road trips look reasonable, and 500+ miles provides flexibility such that no supercharger stop is needed in the middle of the day.
My wife and I do a 400-mile (each way) road trip multiple times per year, her in her 650+mile range Audi Q5 TDi and me in my Model 3 Performance. The trip typically takes about 15-20 minutes longer in the Tesla than it does in the Audi. Hardly a deal-breaker, IMO but YMMV...
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      09-15-2021, 04:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
So you're worried about the vanishingly small chances of a car fire, even though the chances of such a fire are orders of magnitude LESS with an EV than with your ICEV....

Probably best if you never cross the street as a pedestrian either, as your chances of being hit by a car are far higher than your chances of experiencing a car fire... .
I haven't seen any stats of, say, Tesla vs. other premium brand's ICEs, and it is possible the orders of magnitude LESS EV vs. ICE is due to ICE fires from neglected maintenance/repair, while Tesla EV fires were on relatively new cars with zero known issues.

And we do know many other premium brands take proactive steps on battery protection/enclosure that Tesla lacks.
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      09-15-2021, 09:20 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I haven't seen any stats of, say, Tesla vs. other premium brand's ICEs, and it is possible the orders of magnitude LESS EV vs. ICE is due to ICE fires from neglected maintenance/repair, while Tesla EV fires were on relatively new cars with zero known issues.

And we do know many other premium brands take proactive steps on battery protection/enclosure that Tesla lacks.
In general ICE are more likely to catch fire.
BMW recalled more than a million E90/E80 cars for the possibility of electrical fire.

There was a study and even it if it was off by even a large degree EV's catch fire an order of magnitude less often. ~200 million miles driven for EV and 19 million miles for ICE.

The problem is that the typical ICE auto fire can be put out pretty easy and lasts about 30 minutes or so. An EV can burn for hours and take thousands of gallons of water just to keep it under control.

In general car fires are pretty rare.
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      09-16-2021, 01:04 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
In general ICE are more likely to catch fire.
BMW recalled more than a million E90/E80 cars for the possibility of electrical fire.

There was a study and even it if it was off by even a large degree EV's catch fire an order of magnitude less often. ~200 million miles driven for EV and 19 million miles for ICE.

The problem is that the typical ICE auto fire can be put out pretty easy and lasts about 30 minutes or so. An EV can burn for hours and take thousands of gallons of water just to keep it under control.

In general car fires are pretty rare.
Hidden in the stats of 200m vs. 19m miles is the relevant stats of how many of those fires are results of a collision(that the battery protection and enclosure are used to protect against). Is there a link to such data?
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      09-16-2021, 12:11 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
In general ICE are more likely to catch fire.
BMW recalled more than a million E90/E80 cars for the possibility of electrical fire.

There was a study and even it if it was off by even a large degree EV's catch fire an order of magnitude less often. ~200 million miles driven for EV and 19 million miles for ICE.

The problem is that the typical ICE auto fire can be put out pretty easy and lasts about 30 minutes or so. An EV can burn for hours and take thousands of gallons of water just to keep it under control.

In general car fires are pretty rare.
Hidden in the stats of 200m vs. 19m miles is the relevant stats of how many of those fires are results of a collision(that the battery protection and enclosure are used to protect against). Is there a link to such data?
I'll need to go find the link.
I was looking for the information about a week ago because I know someone that had a fire (ICE) caused by electrical issues.
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      09-16-2021, 12:34 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Model 3 SR+ hits number 5, 6, 7 but misses on 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9.

SR+ is 3800lb (300lb above number 1), and can only get 250+ miles, with 60kWh.

That battery can be charged with v3 supercharger in 30 minutes, but surely Tesla does not offer 15 yrs/150000 miles 90% capacity warranty.

500+ miles of range likely adds another 500lb on SR+, maybe around 4300lb?

And thermal runaway vs. gasoline fire has one huge difference, namely, gasoline fire can be put out, but thermal runaway can't. That is a very critical safety issue that is ignored by most.

And when I bought my 2021 330i, the SR+ was $2k($42.5k total) more expensive than 330i(and Tesla had no car to deliver).
  1. weighs 3500lb(CF likely needed)
  2. goes 500+ miles in one charge
  3. takes 30 minutes(or less) to charge
  4. has 15 years/150k miles battery warranty for 90% capacity
  5. goes 0-60 in 5 seconds
  6. is around the size of G20
  7. has 16-18 gallons of trunk space(plus fold down seats)
  8. has ample battery reinforcement and no thermal runaway
  9. sells for $35k or less
Regarding range....

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...44491&id=44495
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      09-16-2021, 01:15 PM   #64
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26-27kWh/100 miles are at par with Tesla, so that is a good sign for Lucid.
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      09-16-2021, 01:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
26-27kWh/100 miles are at par with Tesla, so that is a good sign for Lucid.
Are there any other brands than Lucid which exceed a 500 mile range?
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      09-16-2021, 01:43 PM   #66
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Are there any other brands than Lucid which exceed a 500 mile range?
Model S plaid will be in 500-mile range too. They all tend to hit that range by shear size and weight.
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