[BimmerBahn]

Originally Posted by kjx

Agreed on what you're saying. But while a Tesla can charge at Electrify America stations (it's unclear why nobody bothered in the photos you provided), non-Teslas can't charge at Tesla superchargers (yet).

They probably don’t have the CCS to Tesla adapter….and/or their Tesla is older than MY2020 and it doesn’t have the ECU to support CCS chargers.

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by Jason

The 2022 BMW i4 M50 covered 268 miles in Edmunds' real-world EV range test…

Surely others employ a more aggressive calculation, but personally I translate that into 109 miles of plan-able range. Just like an ICE, I leave at least 50miles of reserve range; then I split the remaining range in half. This provides a safe and stress free projected range for all weather, traffic, pre-heating, and unforeseen lifestyle (adding a detour and/or a stop or two) conditions without even thinking about charging.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I think what is important in the article is that the i4 M50 with summer tires did 268 miles and exceeded the EPA range; while a Model 3 Performance can't even match it's.projwcted range.

Also the consumption was almost 20% better than anticipated.

i4 M50 for the win!

Similarly Edmunds got 263mi in the Model Y and a surprisingly good 272 mi in the Mach E . Guess which one was way below its EPA estimate, and which was higher??

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Similarly Edmunds got 263mi in the Model Y and a surprisingly good 272 mi in the Mach E . Guess which one was way below its EPA estimate, and which was higher??

Given the article also said all Tesla vehicles underperform their EPA estimates… 🙂

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Did you ever pay attention to what these more numerous public chargers are rated at? most range from 6.5-62KW and compared to Tesla superchargers (150-250kw) you're going to be sitting at the charger for hours to get a decent charge.

Tesla 250kW superchargers are abundant across the country, reliable and charge in 30min or less. Even with a little bit of a wait to get a slot, it's much faster than the average public DC charger.

Also most public chargers are not very concentrated in one spot (usually 2-3 per mall, parking garage or hotel) and spread everywhere so it's really a gamble if you'll get access to one. On the other hand Tesla charging stations run at least 7-20 charging stations at any given location, so odds are you won't wait that long.

I know EA is working on 350KW chargers, but even with that most non-Tesla cars can't even take advantage of that since they need 800V support and a special socket. (ie. Porsche Taycan) whereas any Tesla can take advantage of up to 250KW level 3 superchargers.

Sorry but it's not a fairytale.. it's reality

These are some fair points. I'm always happy to debate, worst case I learn something

On your first point about charging speed. DC fast charging is 50kWh charge minimum (no such thing as a 6.2kWh DC fast charger), EA typically has 150kWh or more and as far as facts go: As of March 2022, in US, there are 1315 Tesla Supercharger locations vs as of February 2022, 7018 Public DC fast charging locations, with the number growing exponentially in the next few years. So there are over 5 times more DC fast charging locations than there are Tesla supercharging locations.

On your second point, number of charging ports per supercharging location, look at the pictures from earlier posts , the number of Teslas on the road is higher than other EV's so even though you have, say 40 charger ports at a Tesla Supercharger, vs 15 at a next door EA fast charging location, it doesn't matter there are 2-3x more ports if they're all taken and there's a long line for them. It is very difficult to travel far during a holiday weekend with a Tesla because there simply aren't any available charging ports and you have to wait for a while to get one.

Lastly, I agree, your mileage may vary depending where you are, which charging network is convenient for you, how good are the apps (EA tells you available ports so you're not going in blind), etc, but saying that Tesla Superchargers are net superior and more widely available than Public DC fast chargers is not factual.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Similarly Edmunds got 263mi in the Model Y and a surprisingly good 272 mi in the Mach E . Guess which one was way below its EPA estimate, and which was higher??

InsideEVs just did 280miles in the newest 2022 Model 3 Perf during their 70mph range test. Which is harder on range. Edmunds test is 60% highway and 40% city driving.

Newer Tesla's do seem to have more range than the earlier models tested. The Edmunds test of the Model 3 Perf was done back in 2018. The Model Y Perf was also a two year old vehicle. There have been many software updates that have increased range. Also interested to see what new 4680 batteries do in updated Model Y.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

These are some fair points. I'm always happy to debate, worst case I learn something

On your first point about charging speed. DC fast charging is 50kWh charge minimum (no such thing as a 6.2kWh DC fast charger), EA typically has 150kWh or more and as far as facts go: As of March 2022, in US, there are 1315 Tesla Supercharger locations vs as of February 2022, 7018 Public DC fast charging locations, with the number growing exponentially in the next few years. So there are over 5 times more DC fast charging locations than there are Tesla supercharging locations.

On your second point, number of charging ports per supercharging location, look at the pictures from earlier posts , the number of Teslas on the road is higher than other EV's so even though you have, say 40 charger ports at a Tesla Supercharger, vs 15 at a next door EA fast charging location, it doesn't matter there are 2-3x more ports if they're all taken and there's a long line for them. It is very difficult to travel far during a holiday weekend with a Tesla because there simply aren't any available charging ports and you have to wait for a while to get one.

Lastly, I agree, your mileage may vary depending where you are, which charging network is convenient for you, how good are the apps (EA tells you available ports so you're not going in blind), etc, but saying that Tesla Superchargers are net superior and more widely available than Public DC fast chargers is not factual.

Telsa can use all public fast chargers with a $150 Tesla Tap. So really the argument of these chargers vs those chargers is a moot point.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Telsa can use all public fast chargers with $150 Tesla Tap. So really the argument of these chargers vs those chargers is a moot point.

True, and the opposite will be true as well as long as Tesla goes forward with their plans to open up their charging network. It's no longer a competitive advantage.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

True, and the opposite will be true as well as long as Tesla goes forward with their plans to open up their charging network. It's no longer a competitive advantage.

I don't believe that will happen anytime soon in US. EU Tesla superchargers already have CCS connectors, hence test program started in Europe. Also where did you get that there is 7,018 dc fast chargers in US?

According to EVadoption as of end of 2021 the number is 4,216 fast chargers, which includes Tesla network.

https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-s...ng-statistics/

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I don't believe that will happen anytime soon in US. EU Tesla superchargers already have CCS connectors, hence test program started in Europe. Also where did you get that there is 7,018 dc fast chargers in US?

According to EVadoption as of end of 2021 the number is 4,216 fast chargers, which includes Tesla network.

https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-s...ng-statistics/

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/ame...your-batteries

This also goes into detail regarding the exponential growth of the public fast charging network we will see in the next few years.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/ame...your-batteries

This also goes into detail regarding the exponential growth of the public fast charging network we will see in the next few years.

The website the author got her info from is for US and Canada.

So if you sort out for US only and take out Tesla superchargers, the number is 4,800 DC fast chargers.

EA the largest non-Telsa network currently sitting at 777 stations.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3WC

The website the author got her info from is for US and Canada.

So if you sort out for US only and take out Tesla superchargers, the number is 4,800 DC fast chargers.

EA the largest non-Telsa network currently sitting at 777 stations.

Very cool, so the official source is energy.gov and as of April 2022, in the US the exact numbers are 1334 Tesla Supercharger locations and 4804 Public DC Fast charging locations.

The correct figure is 3.6 times more Public DC fast charging locations vs Tesla Supercharger locations in the US. I'll be more accurate next time

[jeff2.0t]

I'm a bit fed up with the press reviews with the 20'' tyres. The issue and the bashing surrounding EVs is always the autonomy and the tests are always done with the tires offering the least range and moreover it is an option. Marketing-wise it seems stupid to me.

[kindofblue]

I've tweeted Edmunds asking them to test the range of an i4 e40 w/the 18" wheels. The EPA rating with the 19" wheels is 301 mi and if the 18% underestimate holds for the e40 the real range could be 355 mi. (I've got one on order).

[spool twice]

Figured it would exceed EPA, BMW has underrated this cables figure from the beginning.

[bSwiazzy]

whats really cool about the i4 and ev ix is that bmw is using so much recycled materials for the parts

for example the floor mats i think are made from recycled plastics and fishnets from the ocean !

[Accident]

Originally Posted by kjx

The thing that applies to all cars, including electric cars a bit more, is that some portion of the total range is not really usable because once you're down to 50 miles or so, range anxiety kicks in and you need to figure out where you're going to fuel up or charge up. Heaven-forbid this happens when you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic for hours due to an accident, etc.

My first EV was a Nissan Leaf in 2013. The car had 84 miles of range, and I often charged to 80%. My commute was +55miles and I still had no problems running errands after work. If I had 20 miles of range left, but I knew I only needed 5 to pick up groceries, I wouldn’t had think twice before getting in the car.

Once you get familiar with an EV, you learn how to manage the range. They don’t use much energy sitting in traffic, so range can be very predictable. This was in Houston when there were only like 3 chargers in the entire city. I still put 60k miles on the car

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Very cool, so the official source is energy.gov and as of April 2022, in the US the exact numbers are 1334 Tesla Supercharger locations and 4804 Public DC Fast charging locations.

The correct figure is 3.6 times more Public DC fast charging locations vs Tesla Supercharger locations in the US. I'll be more accurate next time

Now that I am looking more closely at the energy.gov site. That map has a lot a incorrect info. I was looking at some stations labeled dc fast chargers on the gov website, they are labeled incorrectly in my area. I have lost count how many are labeled dc fast chargers that are in fact just J1772 level 2 chargers with only 6.6kw max. Typical gov website.

I don't trust the numbers on that site. It would make sense. EA is US largest DC fast charging network besides Telsa. They have a total of 777 stations. The other networks are not making up the difference.

Below is a link to the total dc fast charging ports in US at the end of 2021. Tesla makes up 58% of the total network, EA is only 14%.

https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-s...work-rankings/

As you can see, the Tesla Supercharge network dominates the US DC fast charging landscape and accounts for 58% of the 21,676 installed fast chargers.

I thought I had found new dc chargers in my area, come to find out it is just a poorly run goverment website counting J1772 chargers as dc fast chargers.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I don't trust the numbers on that site. It would make sense. EA is US largest DC fast charging network besides Telsa. They have a total of 777 stations. The other networks are not making up the difference.

I looked at how energy.gov and evadoption gather their data, they are both getting their data from NREL, however, energy.gov data is newer (updated 5/1/22 vs 12/31/21) and based on the statements on their website they cross reference the data with other sources. They also contact existing stations at least once a year to verify the data is accurate and complete, I did not see a similar statement on evadoption.

I use the "Alternative Fueling Stations" app which is maintained by same NREL to locate charging locations in my area and so far has proven accurate. I think the main reason that there are significantly more public DC public charging locations compared to Tesla supercharger locations is because some if not many of these locations have only one charger. For example my local BMW dealer opened up a DC fast charger, same with my local Nissan dealer. All these show as one separate location. I wouldn't be surprised even though there are significantly more DC public charging locations, the total number of Tesla supercharging ports is the same if not higher. There are also many many more Tesla's on the road.

The reason I originally replied with the statistics was because Tesla Supercharger network is perceived as a "huge" differentiator for Tesla, when in reality it's not. Even though there are more supercharger ports many many times they're all taken and it's very difficult to travel over a long distance with a Tesla, especially during holiday weekends.

Sure, your mileage may vary and I'm sure there are many examples of situations where the Tesla supercharger were more convenient but when someone claims it is a clear advantage, it is not factual, and these pictures, recently taken, prove that point. Tesla Supercharging network is not a clear advantage, not always. Do I think the Tesla Supercharging network is good ? Yes, it is better then any other individual charging network, but it is not better than all other public networks combined. Last fact I'll mention, there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Level 2 chargers in office parks that are just as convenient if not more than a Tesla supercharger. Yes they charge slower but that's irrelevant if you'll be there for several hours and you can just park and charge your car va finding a supercharger.

I have to give credit for the picture to jeffc42

Cheers !

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by Accident

My first EV was a Nissan Leaf in 2013. The car had 84 miles of range, and I often charged to 80%. My commute was +55miles and I still had no problems running errands after work. If I had 20 miles of range left, but I knew I only needed 5 to pick up groceries, I wouldn’t had think twice before getting in the car.

Once you get familiar with an EV, you learn how to manage the range. They don’t use much energy sitting in traffic, so range can be very predictable. This was in Houston when there were only like 3 chargers in the entire city. I still put 60k miles on the car

Heh we had an snowstorm last year in Sweden on one of our main roads through the country, and a lot of cars got stuck and abandoned in it, so the information began to spread that it was EV's causing this stop and then some of the people expressing their opinions started to bash the EV's for being so worthless and people getting stuck in snow and needing towing, but when the haze lifted and the real report came in from the tow trucks, the reality was it was one EV who ran out of juice and the rest was regular petrol/diesel cars that ran out of fuel causing enormous stops. But the original stop was caused by a trucker who thought it was a good idea to drive in Sweden without snow tires on its drive-wheels, So one of our government units had to go out in the media explaining this for the people. But by then the damage was done and from time to time when i met people they bring this up and i have to correct them on the matter.

Information like this is so dangerous and damaging to the EV adaptation that people uses that excuse for not switching to EVs.

[FurlongHokie]

I haven't done much research on the topic but is there any possibility (in the US) of an industry standard for EV charging? Seems to me that as more and more of the manufacturing side moves to EVs the more the need for an industry standard solution will be needed. How long until there is a single universal connector that all manufacturers will use?

[Raille]

Originally Posted by FurlongHokie

I haven't done much research on the topic but is there any possibility (in the US) of an industry standard for EV charging? Seems to me that as more and more of the manufacturing side moves to EVs the more the need for an industry standard solution will be needed. How long until there is a single universal connector that all manufacturers will use?

As far as I know, other than Tesla, the industry mostly uses the same charging connections. Even then, Tesla is starting to make it so non-Teslas can use their network. I don't think a standard will be forced, but as more companies go BEV, I think Tesla will see value in at least being able to accommodate more models and take their charging money needs.