[Haywood]

I believe a self sustaining hybrid is the most effective way we can reduce our carbon footprint with vehicles.

Can you explain why you believe this?

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

If anyone who thought they made a difference did the unbiased research on how the environment is affected by ev production they'd reconsider.

Any articles or reputable sources you can reference?

[Rapcat]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Here's why: TCO M3c = 2 x TCO i4M

And:

I would like to stop funding fundamentalism in the middle-East and in Russia. With electricity, we actually no longer have to fund extremist regimes.

And:

environment.

Finally someone gets it!

But yes we need these comparisons to show just how far EVs have come. I would for once like bmw to be the leader in performance EVs. I’ll come back to bmw one day hopefully

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Any articles or reputable sources you can reference?

I will look for some and share if you're being serious. Also a lot of good content on YouTube explaining the process of mining the metals for lithium ions as well as the cost increase due to precious metals and supply chain issues. I'm not saying it's horrible for our well being but I'm just simply saying that we shouldn't shove away ICE when they're at their absolute peak of efficiency.

[Rapcat]

Originally Posted by Maverik259

LMAO. Relax homie. You're not saving anyone driving an electric car.

Reducing demand for oil and saving you money on your fuel costs at the very least.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Can you explain why you believe this?

Firstly, the smaller battery required. This keeps weight down which improves efficiency as well as keeps the cost down for the buyer. When you have a good system working in tandem where the electric motor aids in acceleration, you get the main benefits of electric power which is instant torque.

Meanwhile, you can use that same electric motor to recharge the battery as a regen in the same manner it does now for EVs. And when the battery gets low you can use the ICE to charge the battery pack or you could plug in at home if that's what you'd like.

You're getting the best of both worlds. You're using the electric motor to overcome the weakness of an ICE and using the ICE to overcome the weakness of an electric motor. Plus people forget that something like a 10-20kwh battery pack can still provide a hybrid with a very respectable EV only range if your goal is to simply go to the store and back. At the end of the vehicles life you have a 10-20kwh battery pack to discard (keeping in mind that with the aid of an onboard system charging the battery that the battery wear will be much slower since there's a better means of controlling it's charging) rather than an 80kwh and at the end of the day the owner of this particular vehicle has to make 0 sacrifice (range/performance) to own an EV or ICE car individually.

The next M5 is said to have an S68 engine paired with a hybrid system and I bet you it will be a slam dunk.

I think for now, until the battery technology improves, this is the best option if the goal is to reduce our carbon footprint.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

I will look for some and share if you're being serious. Also a lot of good content on YouTube explaining the process of mining the metals for lithium ions as well as the cost increase due to precious metals and supply chain issues. I'm not saying it's horrible for our well being but I'm just simply saying that we shouldn't shove away ICE when they're at their absolute peak of efficiency.

Of course I am, I started doing research into EV's from your point of view and changed my mind. Amongst other things, I've learned the following:
- not all BEV's are equal in terms of overall environmental impact (BMW does not use precious metals/"rare-earths" for their electric motors)
https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/08/01/bmw-rare-earths/
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...epa-range.html

- BMW also monitors lithium supply chain to make sure it is ethical, sustainable and without any human rights violations.
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...on?language=en

- Almost all reputable sources out there say EV's are green, this is more true in the case of BMW with their sustainability efforts and even more true for people that generate their own electricity through solar systems.
A good place to start is here: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Given this is an EV forum, you'll find out that many of us did quite a bit a research into what we're buying.

Cheers!

[techwhiz1]

I'm going to chime in as an engineer that holds multiple degrees in Electrical Engineering.

People seem to only look at geothermal, solar, wind and hydro. France exports energy and they primarily are nuclear.

New nuclear plants are much more resistant to accidents. Most of the plants in operation are from 60+ year old technology. Just think about all the other advancements we have made in 60nyears. Research in nuclear plant design didn't stand still either and if you want to know the truth the environmental damage from Fukushima, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl pale in comparison to massive oil spills and the amount of radiation spewed into the air from coal fired power plants.

It may not be a popular stance but modern nuclear plants can be made safer and generate extremely cheap electric power.

[AllaVodka]

Porsche > any BMW on a track

BMW's are meant to be a compromise between street driving and track.

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

This is a tomatoes vs oranges comparison, one's better with the main course, one's better with desert.

Whoever followed the i4 M50 closely knows it's slightly faster on the public roadways and it hides its weight extremely well, but it's not really a track car vs M3 that is a true M car that belongs on the track.

Size and weight would disagree with you there. There's nothing they're making today that 'belongs on the track', they've neutered/numbed them down so much that it's a fun backroad stormer for 4 adults with the ability to take to the track without changing much. Not saying at all that the G8x isn't a great proposition - but this statement is like saying the E39 M5 belongs on a track; it's a phenomenal do-it-all option, but it's no track car.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by sor

Easy, it's just more fun where it counts for most of us.

I've driven multiple M cars on tracks, if I wanted a fun track car it would be an M2. Maybe an M3 if it were stripped down, but the M3 is already sort of a compromise between fun and practical. For spirited driving on public roads you really can't beat the feel of an electric powertrain. It's an opinion and as such it can be debated all day but there are plenty of people who feel this way, might as well acknowledge it even if you disagree.

The i4 M50 feels a lot like an M3, in that you can feel the weight a bit but you're not going to be doing any extreme tire squealing maneuvers in day to day driving, you're just looking for that "punch" and responsive handling.

But what about all the other fun things like the loud noises, shifting, and drifting? I suppose it depends what you mean by spirited. Winning easily at going fast, yes. The M3 - especially in the form of 3500 lbs or less - is truly brilliant for all kinds of driving from steady cruising to track days. I want to experience the i4M50 but have my doubts about liking it more than an M3.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Well, a few years back, the truck heavy X5M was beating the M3 around some tracks, so it's not the end of the world being heavier. I come from a sub 3000lb BMW i3, and have had various M-Cars in probably 16 BMW's I have had since 2004. I had i4 M50 for the weekend. It feels much lighter than it actually is. On the plus side, you can put it in comfort individual with the shock set on soft, and the car worked wonderfully while driving through Santa Paula with all those crappy roads.

I used to go to Buttonwillow and Willow Springs quite a bit in my M3. The i4 has plenty of attributes to keep you well entertained. First of all, with my driving habits, I get no more than 16mpg, even driving a Mini Cooper S. Sure I could get 35mpg, but my 2 month average is 16. Same with my BMWs. Except for the 35mpg 335d, which my 3 year average came out to 24mpg.

The point is driving way more aggressively in my BEV's than my ICE cars, still results in an average around 100mpge. So you can drive more aggressively in an electric car without paying the penalty of horrible fuel mileage.

There are those that THINK they live their life on a road course, and yet they drive much more mellow than myself. I go through rear tires in 6000-10000 miles, while they get at least double that. The point is if you always drive spiritedly, the tremendous wave of torque, and instant throttle response are more beneficial in real life than 10/10th track numbers. Not that the .99g cornering of the i4 is pathetic by any means. This is also the second test I have seen the i4 out brake the M4, including the CarWow test. So again, the weight of the i4 is not an issue on the street. In real life, in an accident with a lighter vehicle, extra weight is usually your friend.

And not having a loud, high winding ICE engine is not always a good thing. If you love to do heavy acceleration in everyday driving, the loud engine only attracts the wrong kind of attention from the police dept. If you are trying to make a yellow light, the EV is the perfect tool to have. Instant throttle response, WOT without the screaming engine that would attract the motor cop at the intersection. This is real life. I have accidentally been WOT right by a parked patrol car, without even drawing attention.

And personally, I love the jet like sounds my i3 makes. I only wish the i4 had more of that motor/inverter sound too. But it is always entertaining to be able to hear right when the car in the next lane floors it, or lets off the throttle etc. It is even more entertaining to hear that screaming, straining gas vehicle next to you (ie Camaros, Mustangs, etc), while you effortlessly pull away in an EV.

Its also nice to be able to control the climate control by your phone app, and precool the interior of the car on a hot day. On the same token, being able to relax in a climate controlled car during your lunch break without having to run your engine is incredibly convenient.

There are a lot of positives for EVs. This is why there are so many BEV drivers that say they will never go back to an ICE vehicle again. Plenty of Tesla owners in here that were former BMW M owners. Hopefully BMW will keep coming out with more competitive performance BEV offerings.

Agreed with your points regarding the i3, one of the best cars ever made as far as I’m concerned. Love that ugly little thing.

[MachinesWithSouls]

So fun. I remember getting lambasted because I put a sunroof in my E92 instead of the carbon roof.

Oh the weight! As if the back seat wasn't an indication that you weren't in a race car.

My G80 is an amazing car. In no way would it make a good track day toy. That's not to say you CANT make one, but you will need many monies, and for that there are better options.

As for EV impact, there was a recent article on DRIVE that explained not about making batteries, but recycling them. Specifically, how hard it is, and how bad it is, and how limited many of these resources are to begin with.

Once we're all buzzing around on batteries, our electric bills will go up from charging. They'll say it's a system overload or Mars is aligned with the moon, whatever. But we'll never get a break from energy cost, be it monetarily or environmentally.

[R-M4]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

It's a move in the right direction, EV's today have a lower carbon footprint than ICE vehicles, even taking into account manufacturing. This is especially true if you take into account people that generate their own electricity through solar panels. So yes, EV's are green. In addition BMW doesn't use rare materials in their electric motors and also they make sure the lithium that goes into their factories is ethically and sustainably mined.

For this and other electric vehicle myths you can start here: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

I don't think this is a discussion about facts though, this is more of a discussion of present vs future, old vs new, ICE vs BEV. People had similar conversations and debates going from horse powered carriages to motor transport over 100 years ago. In another 100 years or so, the only place we'll see ICE vehicles will be in automotive history museums. Most people will always be resistant to change.

Well said!

[DavidXJ]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

I will look for some and share if you're being serious. Also a lot of good content on YouTube explaining the process of mining the metals for lithium ions as well as the cost increase due to precious metals and supply chain issues. I'm not saying it's horrible for our well being but I'm just simply saying that we shouldn't shove away ICE when they're at their absolute peak of efficiency.

Enough said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commenti...lt-flats-chile

https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...secret-lithium

https://amp.theguardian.com/global-d...-electric-cars

https://amp.theguardian.com/environm...greener-future

Assuming in any way that buying an EV grants you a passport to ecological self-sanctification is a fallacy. And we haven't even mentioned yet the emissions footprint of the facilities in Asia that manufacture the batteries themselves. Yes, electrification is one possible solution among many (including greener fuels for existing ICE technologies); but the unidirectional policies currently adopted (especially in Europe) on the premise that EVs are an environmental remedy are deeply concerning given the levels of exploitation and pollution governments ignore in order to evangelise about making the 'switch' (as so many car mags now righteously put it) away from petrol.

[sor]

Originally Posted by misterdom

I guess EVs are good if you stay close to home. But they are light years away from going on a family trip. Who wants to sit and wait 30-45 minutes for a super charge or 2-3 hours for non super charge to be able to go another 300 miles? From my research the supercharges are not free and will become more expensive going forward. There isn't a huge impact to climate change it's just a shift in the detriment… co2 vs toxic chemicals and raw material.

In a 100 years there will still be ICE.

Guess I'm in the minority then, because we road trip in our e-tron that has only 222 EPA miles. 800 mile highway trip and it only took 30 minutes longer overall than in our ICE. I was curious so I kept track.

Turns out the charging stops were closer to 25 minutes and that is about the time our ICE stops took as well since the family needs to all stretch and use the restroom and possibly get a drink or snack after driving for three hours.

Lots of charging options for freeway as well. During our trip last summer I was shocked (pun intended) to find that there are 350kw EA stations every 50 miles on I15 in Utah. We didn't even have to plan ahead which one we would stop at, we stopped when we were hungry.

We aren't at the point yet where charging is a total afterthought. But it got surprisingly good very quickly.

Whether or not ICE will disappear is a total red herring.

[sor]

Originally Posted by M3macster

But what about all the other fun things like the loud noises, shifting, and drifting? I suppose it depends what you mean by spirited. Winning easily at going fast, yes. The M3 - especially in the form of 3500 lbs or less - is truly brilliant for all kinds of driving from steady cruising to track days. I want to experience the i4M50 but have my doubts about liking it more than an M3.

Yeah, I concede completely that there are reasons to prefer an M3, and I don't intend to argue otherwise. I just find it hard to believe that people can't imagine cross shopping these cars, that is all. Close to the same size, similar looks, very powerful, nice fun kick around town. I'm saying this as a former M3 owner. They have more in common than not.

[Kayanarka]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Can't really wrap my head around why you'd ever get the i4 if you were vaguely interested in the M3. It's clear that even the full blown M version of this will be well over 5,000lbs. Why would you want 1,000 more lbs of car in something that's supposed to be nimble and agile. It does good with what it has but we're not talking about buying a 320 vs an i4 here. We're talking about a person deciding to go EV or M3 and if these two were my options the i4 isn't even close. Tech has a bit more to go before I think it'll genuinely replace the M3.

Consider also how poor that range is when you rip it on a track. Probably sub 50 miles

I completely agree with you, if someone is interested in buying an M3 or M4 , I highly doubt they would see the i4 M50 and go "oh look, it wins everytine in real world street racing, I am going to get that instead"

They are compared because the i4 is so close that it wins in some scenarios. If your simply shopping for a fast luxury sedan, and you do not like mercedes or porsche, and your neutral on gas vs electric, you might consider either car, and it is nice to see a comparison. In fact, you might consider the i4 if your only remotely interested in the M series cars.

But if you start out shopping for a M competition car, your not gonna switch to the i4 because of this video.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by DavidXJ

Enough said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commenti...lt-flats-chile

https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...secret-lithium

https://amp.theguardian.com/global-d...-electric-cars

https://amp.theguardian.com/environm...greener-future

Assuming in any way that buying an EV grants you a passport to ecological self-sanctification is a fallacy. And we haven't even mentioned yet the emissions footprint of the facilities in Asia that manufacture the batteries themselves. Yes, electrification is one possible solution among many (including greener fuels for existing ICE technologies); but the unidirectional policies currently adopted (especially in Europe) on the premise that EVs are an environmental remedy are deeply concerning given the levels of exploitation and pollution governments ignore in order to evangelise about making the 'switch' (as so many car mags now righteously put it) away from petrol.

Thanks David, even though these articles may be relevant to other EV manufacturers, they have nothing to do with BMW. BMW does not use mines in Chile.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...on?language=en

Cheers !

[deutsch100]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Agreed with your points regarding the i3, one of the best cars ever made as far as I’m concerned. Love that ugly little thing.

I had a 2019 and 2020 i3S...best car ever! A blast to drive, easiest car to park in the world and the turn radius is unreal

If BMW would have updated it with power seats, slightly larger battery and maybe added a power trunk...I think the i3 would still be a huge seller!! Even when BMW killed the i3 in 2020-2021 it was still selling quite well!!!

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by deutsch100

I had a 2019 and 2020 i3S...best car ever! A blast to drive, easiest car to park in the world and the turn radius is unreal

If BMW would have updated it with power seats, slightly larger battery and maybe added a power trunk...I think the i3 would still be a huge seller!! Even when BMW killed the i3 in 2020-2021 it was still selling quite well!!!

Resale value was in the pits on those. Cool car but needed several improvements. Maybe it will re-emerge someday

[DavidXJ]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Thanks David, even though these articles may be relevant to other EV manufacturers, they have nothing to do with BMW. BMW does not use mines in Chile.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...on?language=en

Cheers !

Thanks. Good to know BM are making positive strides. I was simply trying to substantiate a broader point about the moral-ecological sanctimony that occasionally attends the current drive toward EVs, by virtue of which their superiority as the primary solution to our environmental woes goes largely unquestioned.