[footie]

Originally Posted by AllaVodka

Porsche > any BMW on a track

BMW's are meant to be a compromise between street driving and track.

Completely agree and the same is true with the i4 vs Taycan.

[MachinesWithSouls]

I'll explain in an upcoming story in my site, but the i4 I drive today at UDE was not even close to an M3 in terms of driving dynamics.

These comparisons get clicks because of the 0-60 time, but the i4 should really be going up against an M440. BMW set up a super tight course where I was - the i4 was 5,000 lbs of squat and dive.

Driving an i4 on the street is a much better experience. Do that instead.

[sor]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

I'll explain in an upcoming story in my site, but the i4 I drive today at UDE was not even close to an M3 in terms of driving dynamics.

These comparisons get clicks because of the 0-60 time, but the i4 should really be going up against an M440. BMW set up a super tight course where I was - the i4 was 5,000 lbs of squat and dive.

Driving an i4 on the street is a much better experience. Do that instead.

The M440 is almost a full second slower than the i4 M50. It's a fun drive but a full step removed. For daily driving the i4 M50 is going to feel much closer to an M3 than an M440 is, and still people cross shopping the M340/M440 with M3/4 all the time. Track is another story, but I'd bet money 90% of M cars sold to consumers never see a track.

I'm interested in hearing your short track story (auto cross?) - I guess I'm still just hung up on the notion that nobody would ever cross shop these cars. Doesn't make sense to me.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by sor

The M440 is almost a full second slower than the i4 M50. It's a fun drive but a full step removed. For daily driving the i4 M50 is going to feel much closer to an M3 than an M440 is, and still people cross shopping the M340/M440 with M3/4 all the time. Track is another story, but I'd bet money 90% of M cars sold to consumers never see a track.

I'm interested in hearing your short track story (auto cross?) - I guess I'm still just hung up on the notion that nobody would ever cross shop these cars. Doesn't make sense to me.

I was cross shopping an M4.
I was getting ready to convert my E90 prepped 335i to a dedicated track car and was set on an M4... That was until I saw an M50. I put money down at day 1.

Neither my M4 or now M50 will see the track.

[Barnsleyshaun]

I was going to go for either an M4 or an M50, with being able to take as a company car or take an allowance the M50 made the most sense. I’ve never considered taking any car to a track.

[Kriz2fer]

What I don’t like about electric car is you can’t make them faster. 0-60 in 3.5 is all you get. With gas I can tune or mod it. I would get bored fast.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

I'll explain in an upcoming story in my site, but the i4 I drive today at UDE was not even close to an M3 in terms of driving dynamics.

These comparisons get clicks because of the 0-60 time, but the i4 should really be going up against an M440. BMW set up a super tight course where I was - the i4 was 5,000 lbs of squat and dive.

Driving an i4 on the street is a much better experience. Do that instead.

The i4 M50 and the M440i GC are both at the same level of performance, according to BMW M Performance. Nothing new to discover in here.

All Ultimate Drive autocross courses are tight, all of them, since always. They are designed for safety and to be lap-quick to get people in and out fast. They are not designed to show the car ultimate performance, just an overall feeling of driving it.

In the case of this i4 autocross, you should have noticed that it was designed not only to be safe and for a quick lap, but also to experience the brutal acceleration of the electric motors on a short straight, experience the "B" mode, and how 5000lbs are not that noticeable in the sharp turns and slow slalom. That was my only takeaway after 3 laps in there, nothing else to write about. The squat that you may have noticed on that brutal acceleration was not really squat, it was the front-end lift that seems to be by design and not a defect. The rear air suspension did not allow any squat at all.

So comparing an i4 driven in this course to an M3 says nothing about each car, even if you drive an i4 first and then followed by the M3 in this same course.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by Technic

The i4 M50 and the M440i GC are both at the same level of performance, according to BMW M Performance. Nothing new to discover in here.

All Ultimate Drive autocross courses are tight, all of them, since always. They are designed for safety and to be lap-quick to get people in and out fast. They are not designed to show the car ultimate performance, just an overall feeling of driving it.

In the case of this i4 autocross, you should have noticed that it was designed not only to be safe and for a quick lap, but also to experience the brutal acceleration of the electric motors on a short straight, experience the "B" mode, and how 5000lbs are not that noticeable in the sharp turns and slow slalom. That was my only takeaway after 3 laps in there, nothing else to write about. The squat that you may have noticed on that brutal acceleration was not really squat, it was the front-end lift that seems to be by design and not a defect. The rear air suspension did not allow any squat at all.

So comparing an i4 driven in this course to an M3 says nothing about each car, even if you drive an i4 first and then followed by the M3 in this same course.

I totally disagree with you. To be blunt, the i4 was terrible on track. The tight turns made it even worse.

No UDE event is really a true test of driving skills or car dynamics, and you will probably never drive the i4 on track, but since BMW set it up that way, that's what I experienced. I spoke to the instructors afterword and they echoed my statement. The car might be fast in a straight line but there is no hiding 5000 lbs. Physics always wins. I'll explain more in the post this week.

Car is great on the road though, so don't take it as a knock. I'd just rather have an M3, especially in stick form, where performance is more accessible. How many times can you whack the throat from a stop light?

[Bimmerfun82]

5000 pounds is very heavy around a track. Even though the weight is lower in EV, the Tesla for example at 4250 was not fun in the curves. Something closer to 3500 is much better.

[Technic]

I think that we are disagreeing in saying that UDE was a track, which was not at least in the Atlanta UDE that I drove. There was no space in the course to have a terrible i4 experience, IMO. Several people ran over the cones many times, going too fast (very easy to do) and braking too late for what the course was, but that was the drivers and not the car fault. The instructors in Atlanta were very enthusiastic in the i4 driving experience, but very honest in reminding the drivers that we were driving 5000lbs and not a 4000lbs M3 anywhere in the course. Which is the reality, and not a sales pitch.

Definitely we drove two different courses.

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

I totally disagree with you. To be blunt, the i4 was terrible on track. The tight turns made it even worse.

No UDE event is really a true test of driving skills or car dynamics, and you will probably never drive the i4 on track, but since BMW set it up that way, that's what I experienced. I spoke to the instructors afterword and they echoed my statement. The car might be fast in a straight line but there is no hiding 5000 lbs. Physics always wins. I'll explain more in the post this week.

Car is great on the road though, so don't take it as a knock. I'd just rather have an M3, especially in stick form, where performance is more accessible. How many times can you whack the throat from a stop light?

[Ilyam5]

Originally Posted by Technic

I think that we are disagreeing in saying that UDE was a track, which was not at least in the Atlanta UDE that I drove. There was no space in the course to have a terrible i4 experience, IMO. Several people ran over the cones many times, going too fast (very easy to do) and braking too late for what the course was, but that was the drivers and not the car fault. The instructors in Atlanta were very enthusiastic in the i4 driving experience, but very honest in reminding the drivers that we were driving 5000lbs and not a 4000lbs M3 anywhere in the course. Which is the reality, and not a sales pitch.

Definitely we drove two different courses.

What he is trying to tell you - i4 - will behave like that at any road course or any road ramp - it is not designed to handle performance driving. Designers recognize it too.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...not-for-track/

M3 on the other hand is th3e fastest BMW around the Nürburgring - which is not by any means tight

[falconey]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

What he is trying to tell you - i4 - will behave like that at any road course or any road ramp - it is not designed to handle performance driving. Designers recognize it too.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a37638271/2022-bmw-i4-m50-not-for-track/

M3 on the other hand is th3e fastest BMW around the Nürburgring - which is not by any means tight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4i1tv9kIUw

So because the i4 isn't built for the rigors of an actual all day track event it's not a performance sedan? Lmao. Trust me there will be folks who will autox the i4 and will do well. Will probably mean updates to the brakes, suspension and knowing bmw there is probably a way to tune for more power. The e90 335i wasn't built for the track, but trust me they could be modded into a track car. Still didn't make them M3 e90s, but the m3 is bmw's flagship road/track vehicle hence the price difference in the i4/m3 e90 335i/m3.

[Technic]

I don’t get the need to translate what I have experienced at the UDE, much less a lesson of what the M3 does after owning 5 of them.

Let’s get back to regular programming.

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

What he is trying to tell you - i4 - will behave like that at any road course or any road ramp - it is not designed to handle performance driving. Designers recognize it too.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...not-for-track/

M3 on the other hand is th3e fastest BMW around the Nürburgring - which is not by any means tight

[footie]

I don’t get the whole argument of this i4M50 vs M3, if you want an i4M50 buy it but if you want the M3 then get it.

THE END

[LakeSurfer]

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

You have just detailed part of the all EV issue.
You left out third world countries.

Coal isn't the answer but new nuclear could be. Less environmental damage than coal. Coal spews more radioactive isotopes than nuclear power plants have, even including the meltdowns.

Nuclear has been demonized, but France has quite a bit of nuclear. Those plants that had issues were designed and built based on half century old (at least) designs.

Nuclear research did not stop.

[falconey]

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

Not really the thread for this topic, but I don't think anyone is predicting an overnight change. Ultimately the market will answer all your questions as time passes. On another note you sound like the guy who griped about access to gas when the horse and carriage was in use and the first autos were made....just guessing there was a guy since I wasn't there, lol.

[LakeSurfer]

Originally Posted by falconey

Not really the thread for this topic, but I don't think anyone is predicting an overnight change. Ultimately the market will answer all your questions as time passes. On another note you sound like the guy who griped about access to gas when the horse and carriage was in use and the first autos were made....just guessing there was a guy since I wasn't there, lol.

Getting scolded for getting off topic and a back handed insult. Nice work. You sound like the guy yelling at kids all day for walking on you lawn.

[Technic]

You can buy a brand new Miata today, and tomorrow you can put a V8 in it. You will go from meeting all EPA and gas economy regulations, to screw the world in less than 4 seconds.

Nobody is telling anybody what to drive.

As long as there is a market for gas cars, there will be gas cars - and horses.

All your questions about EV - you are actually asking about one future of transportation in particular- will be answered gradually, eventually, and messy for awhile. Something like the way we jumped from horses to gas cars, to planes, to rockets landing standing up.

We will figure it out as we go.

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

All good questions.

As far as mass electricity generation of power, I think you'll find out todays nuclear power plants to be one of the cleanest forms of energy generation. I've seen an article that talked about energy needs if every car in the US will switch to electric tomorrow, we would still have no issues, at the macro level generating the power for all of those EVs (I can share the article if you're interested). YMMV depending on country and area. We will figure it out like Technic said ; because we have to.

Main fact to remember is that ICE automobiles are only about 130 years old, which is a blip in the history books, many buildings are older than that. They likely won't be around for another 100 years, you probably won't be able to buy a new one in 30 years. So the notion that " they were always needed " and " that's how it's always been " is not factual. They are a wonderful invention that's slated to be put to rest by natural technological evolution.

Not all new EV's cost $50,000, you go to Europe and China and you find that that the cost of a new EV is not even half that. They will get cheaper with time. There will be a gradual migration to EV's until all ICE vehicles will be phased out, during this time we will figure out answers to all these questions, because we have to. We have to evolve, otherwise we won't make it as a species, ICE to EV is small part of that process.

Cheers !

[WhereItsAt]

Each year there are less and less coal plants in the US as they convert to natural gas (less costly to fuel, maintain and better for the environment). Additionally wind, solar and tidal power generation is increasing. Other countries have done this already. Take for instance Norway where 99% of its energy is renewable and 80% of its passenger vehicles sold are EV's. There population is is larger than 28 states and all of the territories (individually).

The transition to EV will be a long process, I believe current sales are 2% of passenger vehicles. And let us not lose sight that the existing petrol vehicles will not disappear overnight just like EV's won't appear overnight. The energy grid will grow with the demand. Similarly the locations to charge will and are growing with demand. The initiative by the fed gov to help this is no different than when cars first showed up. Without the infrastructure we would be still using that buggy whip.

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

I'm ignorant on the subject of EVs but curious. If people are saying we'll be done with internal combustion vehicles and move to EV only, what about the charging for people who live in apartments, condos, downtown areas, collage dorms? Will they eventually have to put up charging stations in all these places? If so who pays for it? What about the increased demand for energy? Open up more coal plants and build more nuclear plants as well? Again who pays for that? I'm guessing we will pay for it.

So we have millions of people living at or below poverty driving 20 year old gas cars living in crappy apartments. We're just gonna tell them, sorry you have to buy a $50,000 electric car and you can't change it at your apartment because you're slumlord won't put in a charging station?

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by footie

I don’t get the whole argument of this i4M50 vs M3, if you want an i4M50 buy it but if you want the M3 then get it.

THE END

Buzz kill! There's a couple clear cut reasons for arguing. One is total cost of ownership vs experiential value for the $$, and another is performance of one vs the other. Basically you're saying don't argue just buy what you want. Then what would be the point of this forum to facilitate such debates??? Look, if you have the money and can afford the gas, or the TCO isn't compelling enough, enjoy the gas guzzling M3 while you still can. That's a generational reality. If you can't bear to injure the environment (which is very debatable, depending on a number of factors), then live by your conscience and/or smugness. I speak from experience - it's not a criticism - I even named my tesla model 3P "snowflake," aptly.