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      04-21-2021, 08:28 PM   #177
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MSport on a 328i is just aerodynamics. It has nothing to do with power. On the other hand M performance is different.
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      04-22-2021, 01:51 AM   #178
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I'd have significantly preferred to see BMW make use of the ti moniker instead of M-sport. But in the end, I don't really care. BMW enthusiasts know the difference between a "real" M car and an M-sport car, but BMW strengthened its overall positioning and brand recognition by making its lesser models sportier and more fun to drive.
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      04-24-2021, 01:37 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
S engine code does not make an M car. The 1M and M2 both do not have an S engine. But both are real M cars.
The 1M wasn't a true M car, but more of a parts-bin vehicle. The rear sub-frame, suspension components, aluminum dampers, limited-slip differential and brakes came from the M3, while the engine was the same N54B30TO engine of the Z4 sDrive35is. According to Dr. Kay Segler, BMW M CEO at the time, “is” badged cars are not M cars. M cars are race cars. This car is "M pure."

On the other hand, the M2 used the N55 engine but it was M bespoked. According to BMW Blog:

"BMW started from the ground up with it. Starting from the block and rotating assembly, BMW gave the N55 a forged crankshaft, forged connecting rods and newer piston rings. It also received a reshaped oil pan and a new oil drain pump, to allow for better circulation during more extreme circumstances than it was normally put under. Additional oil coolers have also been fitted to insure that, during the sort of driving that the M2 is capable of, there’s no loss in power."

So the M2 was a true M car but the 1M was not.
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      04-24-2021, 02:28 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
the 1M was not.
The M folks at BMW took a car, did their things to it, and put an M on it. That makes it an M car. Just like anything else they work on and stick an M onto. 1M (because M1 had already been used), M3, M4, and so on.

Any other M stuff is an upgrade (M sport for example).

This isn't rocket science. Why is this even an ongoing discussion?
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      04-24-2021, 02:30 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
S engine code does not make an M car. The 1M and M2 both do not have an S engine. But both are real M cars.
The 1M wasn't a true M car, but more of a parts-bin vehicle. The rear sub-frame, suspension components, aluminum dampers, limited-slip differential and brakes came from the M3, while the engine was the same N54B30TO engine of the Z4 sDrive35is. According to Dr. Kay Segler, BMW M CEO at the time, "is" badged cars are not M cars. M cars are race cars. This car is "M pure."

On the other hand, the M2 used the N55 engine but it was M bespoked. According to BMW Blog:

"BMW started from the ground up with it. Starting from the block and rotating assembly, BMW gave the N55 a forged crankshaft, forged connecting rods and newer piston rings. It also received a reshaped oil pan and a new oil drain pump, to allow for better circulation during more extreme circumstances than it was normally put under. Additional oil coolers have also been fitted to insure that, during the sort of driving that the M2 is capable of, there's no loss in power."

So the M2 was a true M car but the 1M was not.
I guess I am going to disagree with you. The 1M is an M car and the resale price also proves it.
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      04-24-2021, 02:41 PM   #182
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How is this a thread, I don't even know.

It is only an M car if it was built by BMW M GmbH and does have a WBS VIN tag.
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      04-24-2021, 02:47 PM   #183
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I can see both sides to the 1M argument although I'm in the true M camp on that one.

It was built by M as an official M model so it should be considered a "real" M. But it's also true that the 1M was built using a combination of existing, repurposed parts rather than the full purpose built hardware treatment.

That being said, it was a brand new model at the time with no predecessor so it's R&D probably made the most sense. Also, wouldnt be the first time BMW shared components cross platform. It was a unique performance model in it's own right, not just a reskin like (for example) the mk5 Supra
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      04-24-2021, 02:53 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
I guess I am going to disagree with you. The 1M is an M car and the resale price also proves it.
Not only that but also the low production numbers and that it was launched pretty suddenly reminds a bit on how the z3m coupe came to be.
Also at that time there was no 6cyl M engine available anymore.
Fitting the V8 would be troublesome I imagine as that requires a bigger gearbox (that is consequently also a lot heavier) and I wonder if the e81 base plate has room for that. I don't think so without extensive mods (which of course is no problem for a shop to do when building a one off, but not suitable for series production).

So I don't think fitting the s65 V8 was an option, and besides, the NA era was already fading. I don't think bmw launched new M models after that with NA engines.

And that an M car uses parts bin parts from other M cars... that is normal. Think z3m and z4m, both use m3 parts extensively. Their platforms are linked just as the 1 series platform is linked to the 3 series platform (back then).
But it's true that the technical difference between the 1M and the then e82 135i is less than say the technical difference between the then e92M3 and e92 335i.
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      04-24-2021, 06:28 PM   #185
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The Supra is the most M of the M cars. Lol.

Don't forget the 318ti. That's pretty M too.
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      04-24-2021, 06:48 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
How is this a thread, I don't even know.

It is only an M car if it was built by BMW M GmbH and does have a WBS VIN tag.
Sorry, though many will disagree, X3M, X4M, X5M and X6M are true M vehicles and they don't have WBS in the VIN. Mainly because they are built in the US. Even the engines in them start with an S.
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      04-24-2021, 07:15 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe View Post
Sorry, though many will disagree, X3M, X4M, X5M and X6M are true M vehicles and they don't have WBS in the VIN. Mainly because they are built in the US. Even the engines in them start with an S.
Okay, then it is a regional difference because European-spec cars built in the US all have either WBA (non-M) or WBS (M GmbH). Dating back to the E53. America-bound vehicle then have 5Yx or whatever else they use.

In the "birth protocols" of my F80, I am pretty sure that even the manufacturer of the vehicle is BMW M GmbH. I can't check rn because I am away, but I am 99% it is.
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      04-24-2021, 08:00 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
S engine code does not make an M car. The 1M and M2 both do not have an S engine. But both are real M cars.
The 1M wasn't a true M car, but more of a parts-bin vehicle. The rear sub-frame, suspension components, aluminum dampers, limited-slip differential and brakes came from the M3, while the engine was the same N54B30TO engine of the Z4 sDrive35is. According to Dr. Kay Segler, BMW M CEO at the time, "is" badged cars are not M cars. M cars are race cars. This car is "M pure."

On the other hand, the M2 used the N55 engine but it was M bespoked. According to BMW Blog:

"BMW started from the ground up with it. Starting from the block and rotating assembly, BMW gave the N55 a forged crankshaft, forged connecting rods and newer piston rings. It also received a reshaped oil pan and a new oil drain pump, to allow for better circulation during more extreme circumstances than it was normally put under. Additional oil coolers have also been fitted to insure that, during the sort of driving that the M2 is capable of, there's no loss in power."

So the M2 was a true M car but the 1M was not.
BS.

E82 - bespoke bodywork, M3 chassis, AG-series "T0" engine, WBS

F87 - bespoke bodywork, M3 chassis, AG-series "T0" engine, WBS

LITERALLY the same recipe.

Re engine since you're so hung up on it: Both vehicles got the most-powerful version of the respective AG inline six. The Z4 35is just so happened to get it (N54T0) first, and the M2 was the first and last model to receive the souped-up N55T0.

The truly bespoke M engines were the S65 and S85.
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      04-25-2021, 09:57 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
I disagree, as there is historical precedent for Mercedes having multiple levels of AMG car sitting on the same chassis.

In the 90’s we had the SL300/SL500/SL600 non-AMG cars and then the SL55 AMG and the SL65 AMG. Both 55 and 65 models were full on AMG, just like the CL55/CL65 and the S55/S65 were all AMG cars.
You can disagree. But you’re wrong.

False equivalency BS. What Mercedes does with the current 63/65 and the previous 55/65 is completely different from what they are doing now with the C43/E53 and C43/E63. As 55/63/65 (the OG C43 W202) are all ACTUAL AMG cars. Pop the hood of any 55/63/65 and they have AMG plates on the engine with the guys name who “hand assembled” it.

Now pop the hood of any 43 or 53 (CLS53 included) car. Spoiler alert: no AMG plate. Because the car comes off a mass assembly line and never sees the AMG factory.
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      04-25-2021, 01:35 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSee View Post
You can disagree. But you're wrong.

False equivalency BS. What Mercedes does with the current 63/65 and the previous 55/65 is completely different from what they are doing now with the C43/E53 and C63/E63. As 55/63/65 (the OG C43 W202) are all ACTUAL AMG cars. Pop the hood of any 55/63/65 and they have AMG plates on the engine with the guys name who "hand assembled" it.

Now pop the hood of any 43 or 53 (CLS53 included) car. Spoiler alert: no AMG plate. Because the car comes off a mass assembly line and never sees the AMG factory.
Yep, this is correct, even AMG has said that the only true AMG engines at the moment are the 45 2.0 (M139) and 63 4.0 (M177/178) because these are the models that feature hand-built engines. The 45/63 are the two current levels of AMG cars (similar to OP's reference of 55/63 and 63/65), with the 43/53 cars being similar to M-Performance cars, using regular engines that have in some way shape or form been enhanced for performance with upgrades elsewhere, but not the same as a full fat AMG/M car.
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      04-25-2021, 01:45 PM   #191
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      04-25-2021, 07:04 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSee View Post
You can disagree. But you’re wrong.

False equivalency BS. What Mercedes does with the current 63/65 and the previous 55/65 is completely different from what they are doing now with the C43/E53 and C43/E63. As 55/63/65 (the OG C43 W202) are all ACTUAL AMG cars. Pop the hood of any 55/63/65 and they have AMG plates on the engine with the guys name who “hand assembled” it.

Now pop the hood of any 43 or 53 (CLS53 included) car. Spoiler alert: no AMG plate. Because the car comes off a mass assembly line and never sees the AMG factory.
Fair enough.

I absolutely agree that these current cars dip much further downmarket than anything they've done in the (recent) past, but at the end of the day AMG get to decide what cars get the badging and which ones don't.

I think the notion that I take issue with is the idea that there's some hard historical rule about "What an AMG is." I get the hand built engine thing, but as far as I know, that wasn't some historical mandate the company was founded with. It was a (very cool) thing they did for quite a while, but now AMG have decided to not make it a universal thing anymore. That sucks and it's fully worth lamenting that loss. But companies have to change what they do all the time in the name of profits. And if they want to put their name and their badge on a mid-level Mercedes, I guess they can go for it.

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      04-26-2021, 04:45 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Fair enough.

I absolutely agree that these current cars dip much further downmarket than anything they've done in the (recent) past, but at the end of the day AMG get to decide what cars get the badging and which ones don't.

I think the notion that I take issue with is the idea that there's some hard historical rule about "What an AMG is." I get the hand built engine thing, but as far as I know, that wasn't some historical mandate the company was founded with. It was a (very cool) thing they did for quite a while, but now AMG have decided to not make it a universal thing anymore. That sucks and it's fully worth lamenting that loss. But companies have to change what they do all the time in the name of profits. And if they want to put their name and their badge on a mid-level Mercedes, I guess they can go for it.

I agree. The companies are purposely blurring the lines and not defining what an AMG or //M actually is. They'll tell a 55/63/65/70/m2/m3/m4/m5/etc buyer something completely different from a 43/53/m240/m340/m550/etc buyer.

Audi does the best job with their S and RS. For some reason it doesn't feel as cheap and/or gimmicky. And that's probably a result of the lower tiered S's coming out first instead of vice versa.
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      04-26-2021, 05:20 PM   #194
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Interesting and pointless discussion! Lot's of people want true M cars, but ditch them as soon as the warranty is ended. Why so, the cost of good maintenance, preventative and other. When I bought my 2006, Z4M Roadster, in 2006, many of my coworkers lusted after one or an M3. When I showed them the receipt for the first Inspection II, they all gasped. To a man they said no way. I suspect without the leasing option BMW wouldn't sell as many M cars. I still have my Z4M Roadster, my M235, heavily modified with Dinan components, and a 2020 Z4 M40i. The M2 wasn't available when I bought the M235. There is currently no Z4M and I doubt there will be. Making one would push the price to $100,000 or more, making it a truly niche car.
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      04-27-2021, 11:54 AM   #195
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Owning an M5, the M550i xDrive is a tempting offer. A new M5 is out of reach, but an almost new M550i is not.
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      04-27-2021, 12:16 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by ZMcruiser View Post
Interesting and pointless discussion! Lot's of people want true M cars, but ditch them as soon as the warranty is ended. Why so, the cost of good maintenance, preventative and other. When I bought my 2006, Z4M Roadster, in 2006, many of my coworkers lusted after one or an M3. When I showed them the receipt for the first Inspection II, they all gasped. To a man they said no way. I suspect without the leasing option BMW wouldn't sell as many M cars. I still have my Z4M Roadster, my M235, heavily modified with Dinan components, and a 2020 Z4 M40i. The M2 wasn't available when I bought the M235. There is currently no Z4M and I doubt there will be. Making one would push the price to $100,000 or more, making it a truly niche car.
I enjoy all my cars and their individual characteristics. Life too short, get out there and drive!
Gods yes. Folks will by them used out of warranty for a decent price, but how were they driven? I usually by my BMWs CPO, but I really wanted the full warranty this time around. If owner flogs the car, I will know! LOL.
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      04-27-2021, 02:54 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
The Supra is the most M of the M cars. Lol.
Is it?
The J29 Supra misses chassis braces found on the G29 Z4.
These are in front of the front shocks so the convertable/coupe difference has nothing to do with it. (these chassis braces go from the strut tower towards the front subframe of the car (where the radiator sits)
I read in an explanation that 'the aftermarket' could jump into that and enhance the 'tuning scene' that is so often connected to japanese cars.

I thought that was the biggest marketing nonsense I'd ever read.
BTW bmw workshop manual says not to drive the car without those chassis braces (but that's automatically said about any brace in the car).
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      04-28-2021, 06:49 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter.M3 View Post
Kinda controversial but I couldn't find anyone else's input. I see 3 series with the M sport package with M badges, M stickered calipers, M color stripes, etc. In my opinion, it's excessive.

Now, would you consider this upbadging? I would say yes, but I'm not sure. What's your opinion?

However; I still think it's cool to an extent to do it to some BMWs, especially if you have some performance mods. So don't get me wrong there.
In the end of the day, it is BMW that decides what an M car is. BMW is making good money and showing growth in sales of M cars - most likely driven by the 'lite' M stuff. Mercedes is doing the same with AMG.
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