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      08-10-2022, 11:55 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by slazLA View Post
It doesn't say anything about the deposit. The CC authorization is for the amount of the deposit, and the other doc is an agreement to pick up the car you ordered within 3 days of delivery to the dealership or they have the right to sell it to someone else. Basically if I don't perform the obligations of the agreement, they have a remedy.

(I'm not a lawyer so please don't interpret this as legal advice. This is simply my POV on the documents they require you to sign.)
Okay, I took your original post to mean a deposit when you said deposit authorization. What you are saying is that a person would give them a credit card and if the vehicle is not picked up within three days then they could sell to someone else and the person's credit card would be charged x dollars. If that is the case then I would agree that would satisfy the requirements of the transition rule.
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      08-11-2022, 12:25 AM   #112
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Unfortunately whether it is binding or not really won't come into play since you fail the transition rule test in that your order was prior to January 1, 2022.
My $5000 deposit that made a binding contract was July 2022.

The pre-order $250 was an option for a place in line. My $5000 secured the order and allowed me to configure my Fisker Pcean One.

Binding contract was July 5.

For my I4, my term sheet with credit pull and finance options with down payment information is dated March 2. That's when we agreed on price, interest rate and down payment..
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      08-11-2022, 03:52 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by TurtleBoy View Post
Unfortunately whether it is binding or not really won't come into play since you fail the transition rule test in that your order was prior to January 1, 2022.
My $5000 deposit that made a binding contract was July 2022.

The pre-order $250 was an option for a place in line. My $5000 secured the order and allowed me to configure my Fisker Pcean One.

Binding contract was July 5.

For my I4, my term sheet with credit pull and finance options with down payment information is dated March 2. That's when we agreed on price, interest rate and down payment..
Rivian sent me an email saying that if i agreed to make $100 of my $1000 deposit on an R1S nonrefundable, they believe that made the reservation into a binding agreement. I esigned it and believe i'm covered there. Tomorrow i will head to my BMW dealer (Bill Jacobs) and see if I can do something similar. I placed my order and $3xxx deposit in February 2022 but it was all refundable, i think if we can agree to make a portion of it nonrefundable then that is "binding"
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      08-11-2022, 08:10 AM   #114
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For my I4, my term sheet with credit pull and finance options with down payment information is dated March 2. That's when we agreed on price, interest rate and down payment..
If that is when you agreed on price it likely would suffice although the deposit may be the sticking point. Can always plead ignorance at the audit.
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      08-11-2022, 08:53 AM   #115
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I’ve seen some language around the final assembly in the US going into effect immediately. If so, does the binding contract with the transition language still apply? Trying to determine how much time to spend on this with the dealer.
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      08-11-2022, 08:59 AM   #116
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I’ve seen some language around the final assembly in the US going into effect immediately. If so, does the binding contract with the transition language still apply? Trying to determine how much time to spend on this with the dealer.
That's the big question, Fisker seems to think so, but I think most of us are in a very grey area for BMW. I'm strongly considering backup options because half my negotiation to get this BEV was based on that the $7,500 credit. Personally I think the IRS is unlikely to look too deeply into this, but that's a gamble everyone will have to debate.
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      08-11-2022, 09:00 AM   #117
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I’ve seen some language around the final assembly in the US going into effect immediately. If so, does the binding contract with the transition language still apply? Trying to determine how much time to spend on this with the dealer.
That is correct, it goes into effect at enactment which likely will be this weekend. The transition rule is for vehicles purchased/contracted prior to enactment and delivered after.
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      08-11-2022, 09:02 AM   #118
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That's the big question, Fisker seems to think so, but I think most of us are in a very grey area for BMW. I'm strongly considering backup options because half my negotiation to get this BEV was based on that the $7,500 credit. Personally I think the IRS is unlikely to look too deeply into this, but that's a gamble everyone will have to debate.
I think you're being optimistic. The administration are hiring thousands more IRS agents. $7,500 is no small amount to be giving back to its citizens. They obviously can't audit everyone, but I do believe this will be looked at very carefully.
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      08-11-2022, 09:14 AM   #119
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$7,500 is no small amount to be giving back to its citizens. They obviously can't audit everyone, but I do believe this will be looked at very carefully.
You're not wrong, but Janet Yellen has said that her expectation is the rate of audits for middle-class filers (under $400K) will not change. I expect IRS will issue guidance on the transition to the new credit rules once the law is in place. Unfortunately, many of us will be forced to make a financial decision without that guidance.
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      08-11-2022, 09:16 AM   #120
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I think you're being optimistic. The administration are hiring thousands more IRS agents. $7,500 is no small amount to be giving back to its citizens. They obviously can't audit everyone, but I do believe this will be looked at very carefully.
Disagree 100%. They aren't going to he hiring an army of lawyers. They are going to hire a bunch of folks in the $15 to $25 an hour range. My guess is if they even care they will add an additional set of questions to form 8936 so filers are able to enter the date of order. And if by chance some automated system spits out an issue for an individual they may assess the 7500 as owed back and ask for proof of order date. It's all speculation at this point, but the reason for the additional agents has little to do with the EV credit extension. In the future the credit will mostly come directly from dealers as up front discounts.
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      08-11-2022, 09:24 AM   #121
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Disagree 100%. They aren't going to he hiring an army of lawyers. They are going to hire a bunch of folks in the $15 to $25 an hour range. My guess is if they even care they will add an additional set of questions to form 8936 so filers are able to enter the date of order. And if by chance some automated system spits out an issue for an individual they may assess the 7500 as owed back and ask for proof of order date. It's all speculation at this point, but the reason for the additional agents has little to do with the EV credit extension. In the future the credit will mostly come directly from dealers as up front discounts.
Hope you're right my friend.
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      08-11-2022, 09:25 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood View Post
I think you're being optimistic. The administration are hiring thousands more IRS agents. $7,500 is no small amount to be giving back to its citizens. They obviously can't audit everyone, but I do believe this will be looked at very carefully.
I don't doubt the IRS will be expanding either. I'm thinking more from an auditing perspective. I see two main things triggering a filing review. One if your claiming a credit on a car that appears out of your reported income that could be a good area to focus on and then on BEV's that wouldn't otherwise qualify under the new rules.

I would focus more on the former scenario as that's possibly a bad faith claiming a credit you don't qualify for while for most of us it's a question of did our order prior to the bill count as binding to the degree we should be grandfathered in.

If someone believes their BEV should qualify they are more likely to have their CPA's legal support defend the tax position which would cost the IRS more as well. Of course it's all conjecture and I personally am risk adverse, but am waiting to see if there is any guidance that helps settle the question better. It's one of those time's I wish my CPA specialty was tax and not auditing.
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      08-11-2022, 09:48 AM   #123
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With the income limits kicking in on Jan 1, 2023 it won't matter a bit if my cars (Fisker or BMW) aren't delivered by then.

Single filers $150k for married $300k.
Once again they have found a way to stick it to states where the income is high just because employers have to pay that much so folks can live.

There goes $15k in tax credit.

The SALT cap at $10k was another claw back.
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      08-11-2022, 09:55 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
With the income limits kicking in on Jan 1, 2023 it won't matter a bit if my cars (Fisker or BMW) aren't delivered by then.

Single filers $150k for married $300k.
Once again they have found a way to stick it to states where the income is high just because employers have to pay that much so folks can live.

There goes $15k in tax credit.

The SALT cap at $10k was another claw back.
I'm not sure this is correct. Any "confirmed written order" made from Jan 1, 2022 until the bill is signed should qualify as if it was delivered the day before the bill is signed (i.e., even if delivered in 2023)
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      08-11-2022, 10:38 AM   #125
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I'm not sure this is correct. Any "confirmed written order" made from Jan 1, 2022 until the bill is signed should quickly as if it was delivered the day before the bill is signed (i.e., even if delivered in 2023)
That is correct. That is the point of having the binding contract.
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      08-11-2022, 01:05 PM   #126
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Quote:
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I'm not sure this is correct. Any "confirmed written order" made from Jan 1, 2022 until the bill is signed should qualify as if it was delivered the day before the bill is signed (i.e., even if delivered in 2023)
That is correct but the income cap kicks in on all deliveries on or after Jan 1, 2023 from what I understand. The only transition for that is delivery before end of 2022.

It's all moot either I'll get it or I won't.
Discussing it won't change that.
I'm doubting delivery of any car by end of 2022.
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      08-11-2022, 01:36 PM   #127
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BUT -
Don't both parties have to sign that agreement? And I would think that if the dealer is signing it as well, then they are obligated to give you a car... Which I can understand at this point they may not be terribly willing to sign a contract stating they're going to give you one, until they have the car on their lot. Otherwise, are they not taking a chance that the car will get to their hands at all?
Dunno. This is why I let my accountant do my taxes. I can't stand when they overcomplicate BS like this.

I would have liked to see them incentivize all EVs, maybe at half the amount, and then maybe give the American manufactured EVs the full incentive.
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      08-11-2022, 01:46 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
That is correct but the income cap kicks in on all deliveries on or after Jan 1, 2023 from what I understand. The only transition for that is delivery before end of 2022.

It's all moot either I'll get it or I won't.
Discussing it won't change that.
I'm doubting delivery of any car by end of 2022.
The transition rule allows orders with a written binding contract placed before the enactment of the law "to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act."

Which means that the order will be treated under the current law terms, not under the new law (income limits, US built, battery materials from US, tax credit is applicable at purchase, etc).
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      08-11-2022, 02:13 PM   #129
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BUT -
Don't both parties have to sign that agreement? And I would think that if the dealer is signing it as well, then they are obligated to give you a car... Which I can understand at this point they may not be terribly willing to sign a contract stating they're going to give you one, until they have the car on their lot. Otherwise, are they not taking a chance that the car will get to their hands at all?
.
Ideally yes, they should sign it also. They can't be made to sell you the vehicle just that they have to give your deposit back. Just like the buyer can't be forced to purchase the vehicle just lose their deposit.
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      08-11-2022, 02:16 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
That is correct but the income cap kicks in on all deliveries on or after Jan 1, 2023 from what I understand. The only transition for that is delivery before end of 2022.

It's all moot either I'll get it or I won't.
Discussing it won't change that.
I'm doubting delivery of any car by end of 2022.
Here is the Transition rule in case it helps:

TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that— (1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
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      08-11-2022, 02:33 PM   #131
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Here is the Transition rule in case it helps:

TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that— (1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
You are correct.
I downloaded and read the information.
As long as there is a contract. I'll say that in California dealers will comply with the state law first and I would assume the IRS will have some leeway to determine compliance in the state you live in.
You need the VIN to file, bit it does not say that the contract needs to include a VIN.

So I'm now confident for the Fisker Credit since we entered I to a really binding contract in July for a Fisker Ocean One.

I have asked my CA for a contract stating I have 2 days from notification to close the deal on my car or else they can sell it to anyone. He hasn't responded.

I have my credit application approval, term sheet and VIR. From March 2, 2021.
I also have an email chain supporting the docs.

We shall see.
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      08-11-2022, 08:12 PM   #132
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Here is the Transition rule in case it helps:

TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that— (1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
Oh the timing...I'm supposed to be up for a build right after Labor Day.
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