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      08-07-2020, 12:37 PM   #23
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This thing looks like a diseased manatee screaming out 'kill me'

... But it will sell.
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      08-07-2020, 12:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Watch one of Munro's Tesla teardowns - he compares its motors to the motors of other manufacturers, and there's a lot of variation in the design. It's just that all of it is not the kind old gearheads are used to.
The fact that you have to tear the motor apart to tell how great it is is part of the problem. This is with Tesla ahead of everyone when it comes to the inner workings of electric motors and batteries. Long term other manufacturers will get better and the "ultimate" electric motor from every manufacturer will be extremely similar.

Even with the Tesla great motor, the power delivery from every electric motor is strong, silent and vibration free. I wonder about differentiation. A Ferrari, BMW and Honda electric motor, not picturing how I will know or care what the difference will be from a drivers standpoint. At some point I wonder if every manufacturer will build their own electric motor or instead go the route of transmissions where they share them (Ford/GM), or buy from a supplier (ZF). If customers can't tell any difference, why bother?
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      08-07-2020, 12:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by motorwerkeman View Post
This thing looks like a diseased manatee screaming out 'kill me'

... But it will sell.
Let's hope. In the US at least, all Tesla competitors like the iPace and E-Tron have lackluster sales and Mercedes EQC is still missing in action and likely to not come to the US. Hopefully BMW will do things right.
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      08-07-2020, 02:00 PM   #26
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Yet another BMW with an ugly front.
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      08-07-2020, 02:17 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The fact that you have to tear the motor apart to tell how great it is is part of the problem.
This is true for ICE too.
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      08-07-2020, 02:19 PM   #28
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Is the iNext being built on an ICE platform? I still think BMW should invest in a BEV platform. It seems like the ICE platforms will only compromise many aspects of an EV, even if it is cheaper for BMW to produce.
BMW has just one platform for all RWD-biased cars. It was designed from the start to be used by pure ICE, hybrid, and pure EV cars.

The better question would be whether this model is built to accommodate traditional drivetrains like G26 was. The answer is no.
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      08-07-2020, 02:24 PM   #29
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Is the iNext being built on an ICE platform?
Yes, CLAR. BMW does not yet have a scaleable dedicated electric platform. They have the i3's platform, but unfortunately it cannot scale and will not be reused.

Quote:
I still think BMW should invest in a BEV platform. It seems like the ICE platforms will only compromise many aspects of an EV, even if it is cheaper for BMW to produce.
Indeed. BMW is the perhaps the only major manufacturer in the EV game who has not said a word about a dedicated electric vehicle matrix. Ford, GM, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai Motor Group, Renault-Nissan, Stellantis (by way of PSA), and even Toyota and Honda now have something in the pipeline. Products are arriving starting this year. BMW is still, it would appear, betting on being able to compete until at least the middle of the decade using only their existing CLAR and FAAR toolkits.
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      08-07-2020, 02:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
This is true for ICE too.
I don't have to tear an ICE down to tell the differences in them. Even similar 2.0T's have a lot of variation in them, from redline to smoothness to the power band.

I bought my Z4M because of the endines 8000 rpm redline inline six. I don't believe I will ever make a similar statement about an electric motor. Take a new Ferrari and compare it to a new Honda or even a similar hp Ford, engine is radically better in the Ferrari. I don't see how they plan to make their electric motor radically better than the competition in the future.
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      08-07-2020, 02:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
Is the iNext being built on an ICE platform?
Yes, CLAR. BMW does not yet have a scaleable dedicated electric platform. They have the i3's platform, but unfortunately it cannot scale and will not be reused.

Quote:
I still think BMW should invest in a BEV platform. It seems like the ICE platforms will only compromise many aspects of an EV, even if it is cheaper for BMW to produce.
Indeed. BMW is the perhaps the only major manufacturer in the EV game who has not said a word about a dedicated electric vehicle matrix. Ford, GM, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai Motor Group, Renault-Nissan, Stellantis (by way of PSA), and even Toyota and Honda now have something in the pipeline. Products are arriving starting this year. BMW is still, it would appear, betting on being able to compete until at least the middle of the decade using only their existing CLAR and FAAR toolkits.
Yeah even Mercedes quickly realized with the EQC that they f-ed up with the use of an ICE platform vs an all EV architecture.

I remember reading a Jalopnik article which really made me question BMW's current EV choices. The previous CEO was fired due to a slow transition into EV's and not being dedicated to them, and it seems like the new CEO is following the same strategy just with more models within the next couple of years. Seems like a case of BMW being cheap if anything, which also makes sense being that the new CEO's top priorities lie in bringing more profits in. According to the Bloomberg Tesla Survey, the second most traded in vehicle (after the Prius) for a Model 3 was a 3-series, and of all the brands as a whole, BMW was the most affected negatively, I personally think now is not the time for BMW to cheap out.

https://jalopnik.com/bmws-new-ceo-is...got-1836597860

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...evolution.html
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      08-07-2020, 02:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I don't see how they plan to make their electric motor radically better than the competition in the future.
They will not. This is a huge cost reduction which we should see translated in the retail price soon, I hope.
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      08-07-2020, 02:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
With electric cars the drive train is talked about as hp, number of motors and range. Anything else?
Efficiency is most important. Hyundai actually has the most efficient motors IIRC - I think they and Tesla are somewhat neck and neck.

Another important upcoming factor will be the number of moving parts in the drive system. This one has four:

https://lordstownmotors.com/pages/tech

Of course, hub motors are far from proven in real world car/truck applications, and they have the drawback of increasing unsprung weight (by more than 100% using current state of the art tech). But if this type of system proves to meet customer demands, continues to be refined, and proliferates, well, you can also count single speed step-down transmissions, differentials and half shafts among your mechanical casualties as well.

All of this, by the way, is happening for the same reason that your phone went from being a messy keypad with a bunch of buttons you don't care about and a postage stamp screen to just screen with no buttons (almost - they'll all be gone soon) - humans want shit to be simple because we hate f**king around with fiddly nonsense that has forty ways it might break at any moment. That desire - which is rooted in increasing quality of life - for the vast majority of us, trumps any nostalgia for obsolete technology.

Quote:
Assuming an electric Honda with same hp & range will be extremely similar to everyone else's? Seems like the reasons to buy one brand of car over another are getting smaller as the drive train gets more generic.
There will be fewer USPs as time goes on, yes.

Still, even if we took every ICE vehicle on the market and gave them all the best engine/transmission in their class, consumers would find plenty of reasons to prefer one make/model over another. Expect that to continue to be the case in the era of electric and increasingly automated vehicles.

Even if we are saying the industry is shifting toward appliances, plenty of folks are going to want the appliance with the BMW badge, right?
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      08-07-2020, 03:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Efficiency is most important. Hyundai actually has the most efficient motors IIRC - I think they and Tesla are somewhat neck and neck.

Another important upcoming factor will be number of moving parts in the drive system. This one has four:

https://lordstownmotors.com/pages/tech

Of course, hub motors are far from proven in the real world in car/truck applications, and they have the drawback of increasing unsprung weight (by more than 100% using current state of the art tech). But if this type of system proves to meet customer demands, continues to be refined, and proliferates, well, you can also count single speed step-down transmissions, differentials and half shafts among your mechanical casualties as well.

All of this, by the way, is happening for the same reason that your phone went from being a messy keypad with a bunch of buttons you don't care about and a postage stamp screen to just screen with no buttons (almost - they'll all be gone soon) - humans want shit to be simple because we hate f**king around with fiddly nonsense that has forty ways it might break at any moment. That desire - which really is rooted in increasing quality of life - for the vast majority of us, trumps any nostalgia for obsolete technology.



There will be fewer USPs as time goes on, yes.

Still, even if we took every ICE vehicle on the market and gave them all the best engine/transmission in their class, consumers would find plenty of reasons to prefer one make/model over another. Expect that to continue to be the case in the era of electric and increasingly automated vehicles.

Even if we are saying the industry is shifting toward appliances, plenty of folks are going to want the appliance with the BMW badge, right?
Thanks for the reply.

As for efficiency, once range is acceptable for what I need, not sure why I care if one motor is more efficient. Refueling cost is irrelevant, performance for both is close. Going 0-60 in 3.5 seconds in my family SUV or 3.2 seconds?

You said Hyundai has the most efficient motors, not sure why the average buyer cares, hopefully range is better?

With the phone analogy, you're correct, phones made rapid developments to where we are now but at this point I don't care nearly as much who's phone I buy or care that much about the latest and greatest. Phone manufacturers are finding it harder and harder to get people to upgrade with new models.

As for the "plenty of folks are going to want the appliance with the BMW badge". Badge buyers will always be there but if you are looking for substance the differentiation continues to drop. My wife cares about all the features a car has and her Acura TSX (new at $32k) has more than most BMW's so she it out. I like RWD cars (requiring luxury cars) because of the driving dynamics, I won't be stepping into a BMW dealership just for the badge. Each time you make two vehicles closer to the same (a BMW/Hyundai/Honda) the differentiation goes down and it becomes more difficult to sell them. I think BMW makes the best 2.0T available, good luck on the next electric motor (if I can tell).
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      08-07-2020, 03:14 PM   #35
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I hope they are built on a "normal" looking chassis and not made as if they were out of the 2050 hot wheel catalog
I don't think you'll get your wish. Current renders based on spy shots.
Looks buck tooth
nice
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      08-07-2020, 03:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I don't have to tear an ICE down to tell the differences in them. Even similar 2.0T's have a lot of variation in them, from redline to smoothness to the power band.
Because you've known them since your childhood.

Show an ICE to an alien who only knows electric motors. Ask them to explain what it is and how it works without opening it up.
Quote:
I bought my Z4M because of the endines 8000 rpm redline inline six.
I'm sorry but the first word that popped into my mind when I read this was "masturbation".
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      08-07-2020, 03:40 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Because you've known them since your childhood.

Show an ICE to an alien who only knows electric motors. Ask them to explain what it is and how it works without opening it up.

I'm sorry but the first word that popped into my mind when I read this was "masturbation".
Sometimes when people have nothing to say they just keep quiet.
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      08-07-2020, 03:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
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As for efficiency, once range is acceptable for what I need, not sure why I care if one motor is more efficient. Refueling cost is irrelevant, performance for both is close. Going 0-60 in 3.5 seconds in my family SUV or 3.2 seconds?

You said Hyundai has the most efficient motors, not sure why the average buyer cares, hopefully range is better?
As drivetrains progress, the differentiation between them remains important for smaller and smaller groups of people. The improvement from 10s 0-60 to 6-7s is something almost anyone would appreciate. Comparing two cars with one capable of 3s and the other only 4s is only meaningful to the few among us who properly race (or the slightly larger group of morons who think public roads are their racetracks). The progress between the first pair of numbers was a hard slog of gradual ICE improvements over decades. This is why everyone and their grandma cares about cylinders, turbochargers, rpms, and transmission gears. Tesla engineers looked at all that, said "haha" and gave us drivetrains that do more than 99% of the population could dream about. Other EV manufacturers followed suit. All the dick measuring contests of rpms and hps are now pointless, the cars just do everything you ask them to, conversation over.
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      08-07-2020, 03:52 PM   #39
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Sometimes when people have nothing to say they just keep quiet.
I'm afraid you have lost track of what this thread started with.
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      08-07-2020, 03:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
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As for efficiency, once range is acceptable for what I need, not sure why I care if one motor is more efficient.
Because batteries are where the raw material cost is, so you want that acceptable range with least amount of battery sitting under your feet. At any rate, drivetrain efficiency is definitely a major source of EV R&D at the moment, along with battery tech obviously.

Quote:
...I think BMW makes the best 2.0T available, good luck on the next electric motor (if I can tell)...
Sure. Meanwhile every manufacturer has a 2.0L turbocharged motor now (contrast that with just a decade ago), and most consumers won't wax on about why they think the one in their car is (or isn't) better than the one in yours. The industry has already been commoditized - its just that you are enough of an enthusiast that you can still spot the differences. Furthermore the fascination with engines, perhaps including the mythos of German Engineering and such, still gets you going. Yet, most people today are not choosing a BMW because they are on about the engineering - they are buying the brand and the brand experience.

I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis. For car guys like us, something gets lost. I don't think it's got nearly the same impact for the average consumer. The end result is that while the game changes, the game also stays the same - the marketing song and dance to groom customers, the creation of value via new tech, the product development process all continues to be what it is. Enthusiasts might have less of real substance to argue about in forums like this one, but target customers are still going to be swayed or not swayed based on what ticks the boxes and tickles their fancy. Sure, there are objective features that you and I may care about, but it's an emotional decision at its core and it's going to continue to be. It's why some car guy might argue the superiority of BMW's B48 engine with his wife until he's blue in the face, but she's still going to pick the Lexus for her reasons (probably involving being subconsciously woo'd by some racy Facebook ad or some such).
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      08-07-2020, 04:23 PM   #41
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I am confused: what is the positioning of this model? It look out of place in the multi-powerplant electrification strategy BMW adopted.
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      08-07-2020, 04:42 PM   #42
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it's nicer than we all are expecting I guess.
Only because what they do on the concepts is exagerate features so an awful feature seems less awful when it is toned down.

But...seen objectively, awful is still awful.
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      08-07-2020, 04:50 PM   #43
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I am confused: what is the positioning of this model? It look out of place in the multi-powerplant electrification strategy BMW adopted.
Think of it as an electric X5.
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      08-07-2020, 08:53 PM   #44
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While I agree with your statement, Tesla is not a beauty contender either. I mean, far from it.
And Tesla’s interior is probably one of the most repugnant interiors I have ever seen...
I disagree, as I think the Tesla Model S is the most beautiful car on the road and I am a BMW guide. I agree on the Model 3 front end however.
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