[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

In your scenario below, would you have still been able to take the shooter out after he hit your arm with a real projectile? So you would have to swap hands on the trigger?

It's great that you can get these "as close to real world training" done, feel at least a level of the stress involved.

I preface my answer with this…..


…..had my partner in the scenario been one of the partners I work with in the field daily, I likely wouldn't have been shot at all.

In the scenario, I was the driver and my partner was the book-man. The book-man's primary role in a traffic stop is to hang back a little, listen to what's going on with my interaction, but keep an eye on the surroundings. My book-man in the scenario was caught up dealing with the driver [that I was already engaged with] and didn't address the sidewalk problem at all. I had my attention too divided looking at the driver's hands (…and dealing with his non-compliance) and assessing the other obvious threat directly across from me (…the scenario pits you in a situation with no immediate concealment or cover, which is a realistic situation on a traffic stop). I wanted to tell my book-man, "Dude, deal with that asshole on the sidewalk," but I didn't want to hurt feelings.

The sidewalk suspect pulled out a gun and started firing directly at me, so I was hit in my support forearm as I returned fire. Had my partner already had his gun pointed downrange, he would've had the tactical advantage and would've been able to shoot following furtive movements on behalf of the suspect. I likely wouldn't have been shot at all.

To the meat and potatoes of your question…..

…the round hit my support forearm, not my strong side forearm. I wouldn't have needed to swap hands. We did work scenarios where you were forced to do everything one-handed though. You can rack the slide on your boot, duty belt, sidewalk, etc. Tourniquet application was timed as well as strong side and support side fire-reload-fire drills.

[UncleWede]

So, you won't be requesting a new partner???

2-person cars thru-out? We only have 2 people in a car when one is the FTO.

I had to meet with chief/staff Tuesday because suddenly they want a MDC in EVERY available unit. "You only have 4 officers and a CSO in the field at any time, 8 MDC should be plenty"
He pulled the Public Safety card with my boss, and now the project for next FY is suddenly in my lap for yesterday. . .

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I preface my answer with this…..


…..had my partner in the scenario been one of the partners I work with in the field daily, I likely wouldn't have been shot at all.

In the scenario, I was the driver and my partner was the book-man. The book-man's primary role in a traffic stop is to hang back a little, listen to what's going on with my interaction, but keep an eye on the surroundings. My book-man in the scenario was caught up dealing with the driver [that I was already engaged with] and didn't address the sidewalk problem at all. I had my attention too divided looking at the driver's hands (…and dealing with his non-compliance) and assessing the other obvious threat directly across from me (…the scenario pits you in a situation with no immediate concealment or cover, which is a realistic situation on a traffic stop). I wanted to tell my book-man, "Dude, deal with that asshole on the sidewalk," but I didn't want to hurt feelings.

The sidewalk suspect pulled out a gun and started firing directly at me, so I was hit in my support forearm as I returned fire. Had my partner already had his gun pointed downrange, he would've had the tactical advantage and would've been able to shoot following furtive movements on behalf of the suspect. I likely wouldn't have been shot at all.

To the meat and potatoes of your question…..

…the round hit my support forearm, not my strong side forearm. I wouldn't have needed to swap hands. We did work scenarios where you were forced to do everything one-handed though. You can rack the slide on your boot, duty belt, sidewalk, etc. Tourniquet application was timed as well as strong side and support side fire-reload-fire drills.

Sounds like the scenarios haven't changed much.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

So, you won't be requesting a new partner???

2-person cars thru-out? We only have 2 people in a car when one is the FTO.

I had to meet with chief/staff Tuesday because suddenly they want a MDC in EVERY available unit. "You only have 4 officers and a CSO in the field at any time, 8 MDC should be plenty"
He pulled the Public Safety card with my boss, and now the project for next FY is suddenly in my lap for yesterday. . .

I don't have a partner in the car. I prefer to be solo. I do have good partners on the beat though. There are other two-man hoops on my shift including training cars (…when we actually have trainees; currently only two on my shift).

Interesting they want MDC's in every unit. I'll have to check to see if all of our available cars have them. I don't believe the Crown Victoria's driven by Homicide Detectives, etc. have them. If it's a marked car, it has one though.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Sounds like the scenarios haven't changed much.

The only thing that has changed over the years are the tactics related to clearing buildings. Some of the stuff we did yesterday was different and uncomfortable compared to how I was originally trained.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The only thing that has changed over the years are the tactics related to clearing buildings. Some of the stuff we did yesterday was different and uncomfortable compared to how I was originally trained.

The constant fine tuning and lessons learned from others mistakes.

[Fly320s]

MDC?

Sedan, are you running irons or RDS? Do you have the option?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

MDC?

Sedan, are you running irons or RDS? Do you have the option?

Mobile Data/Digital Computer…..


I have tritium sights on my handguns. We can use RDS's if we qualify expert at the range. I haven't taken the test and I don't own any handguns with slides that are RDS ready.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Mobile Data/Digital Computer…..


I have tritium sights on my handguns. We can use RDS's if we qualify expert at the range. I haven't taken the test and I don't own any handguns with slides that are RDS ready.

Unless something has drastically changed the vast majority of police shootings happen up close and involve instinctive shooting where using a full sight picture isn't the reality.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Unless something has drastically changed the vast majority of police shootings happen up close and involve instinctive shooting where using a full sight picture isn't the reality.

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

First round is likely fired before you can think about getting a sight picture.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Murf993

First round is likely fired before you can think about getting a sight picture.

You're doing it wrong.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

You're doing it wrong.

I don't think so, 30+ years of training. The vast majority of police involved shootings last less than 5 seconds and happen at lest then 5 metres. We trained at many different distances and scenarios but the life saving fight to win shooting was instinctive shooting. Your first round usually makes the difference between winning and losing the fight. You might get lucky enough to see your pistol and maybe the front sight but if you train to do that kind of shooting it all happens very fast and you often don't have or take the time to get a proper sight picture.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I don't think so, 30+ years of training. The vast majority of police involved shootings last less than 5 seconds and happen at lest then 5 metres. We trained at many different distances and scenarios but the life saving fight to win shooting was instinctive shooting. Your first round usually makes the difference between winning and losing the fight. You might get lucky enough to see your pistol and maybe the front sight but if you train to do that kind of shooting it all happens very fast and you often don't have or take the time to get a proper sight picture.

100% truth.

I think people need to go through scenario training to understand. You also don't need sight picture to hit center mass at 3-5 yards.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

Going along with this, I read a study years ago, I don't remember if it was an NRA or FBI study that the average gun fight is over in 2.5 rounds. Or maybe this belongs in the old fart thread.:

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Going along with this, I read a study years ago, I don't remember if it was an NRA or FBI study that the average gun fight is over in 2.5 rounds. Or maybe this belongs in the old fart thread.:

It was the FBI. They are good for statistical data.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

100% truth.

I think people need to go through scenario training to understand. You also don't need sight picture to hit center mass at 3-5 yards.

The training is very different than the type of shooting most people do. I'm not really great at a distance, I could always qualify but it wasn't my strong suit. 25 yards standing you needed to get 6 in centre mass. No misses allowed. I would do it every time but not with a really tight grouping. Lots of recreational shooters would make fun of that as they would have these really tight grouping at 25 yards. But they didn't train to be in a fight where you were being shot at as well. I can hit centre mass a 3-5+ yards all day long and barely look at my sights. We would also train to shoot from the waist, single handed and weak handed. Lots of moving and shooting training to.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

The training is very different than the type of shooting most people do. I'm not really great at a distance, I could always qualify but it wasn't my strong suite. 25 yards standing you needed to get 6 in centre mass. No misses allowed. I would do it every time but not with a really tight grouping. Lots of recreational shooters would make fun of that as they would have these really tight grouping at 25 yards. But they didn't train to be in a fight where you were being shot at as well. I can hit centre mass a 3-5+ yards all day long and barely look at my sights. We would also train to shoot from the waist, single handed and weak handed. Lots of moving and shooting training to.

Agreed on this/these point(s) as well. The shooting range and dynamic shooting scenario training are very, very different. The best analogy I can present is that of someone who can look spectacular hitting a heavy bag, but fall apart in front of a willing, determined and resistive opponent who is moving and hitting back.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

Training and repetition will do wonders for your trigger discipline and accuracy. If possible, put 50 rounds through your firearm every month (…consideration given to ammo surplus and shortages). Practice, practice and practice some more.

[Sedan_Clan]

Also, while it looks good to have tight groupings at the range (….all acknowledgement given to the skill it takes to achieve the feat), in the real world, spreading out the trauma to the body is the name of the self defense game. The more holes you poke in various places, the more taxing it is on the body to address. It is easier to deal with one centralized wound area than it is to deal with multiple.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

We did a lot of shooting in the 3-7 metre range. Dark range, just a set of roof lights going in the back ground and the targets turn for a 2-3 second exposure before it turns back. You'd be required to get a number of rounds off as instructed as the target was turned, or you'd be told to issue the Police Challenge.

Like Sedan_Clan says, practice, practice, practice.