[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by premier3is

Let's look at a long term example....

50k 3 series for 500 a month... 3 year lease.. paid 18k and own nothing. Do it again 2 more times and at 9 years you've paid a total of 54k to own nothing. Assuming you don't have to change brakes and tires in any of those leases and with BMW maintenance covered that's all of your expenses and payments all inclusive.

If you bought that first 3 series you leased, you paid 50k for it and its value after 9 years of you owning it is what? Like 7-9k (2010 3 series google search was around 7-9k).

so if you sold, you'll say your better off with buying vs. leasing since you retained 7-9k after 9 years. But factor in maintenance for 9 years and your probably close to 0 (just like the lease).. or you might be plus a couple grand.

Before you all here bitch about the numbers being wrong or some shit, these are just estimates so don't get your panties in a bunch. For me, I'd rather just lease a new car every 3 years and not worry about shit. Saving a couple grand makes no difference to me in like 10 years, and if it does to you you probably shouldn't be driving a BMW.

A couple of grand in savings matters to me and I CAN afford a BMW. But hey, I'm not balling.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by BimmerDimmer6

Ehh doesn't bother me when I'm saving tens of thousands!

Having a good "in" with your local exotic dealer can be extremely valuable also. They can usually source you low mile grandpa owned cars pretty easily. I've even bought at dealer auctions before! But I'm a sucker for a good deal, so don't listen to me lol.

I'm talking a 3/4 series. Low barrier to entry cars

[upstatedoc]

op didn't find the answer he was looking for here

[smrtypants44]

Originally Posted by BimmerDimmer6

I don't understand leases or people that buy new for that matter. I don't care how successful I am, I'd never buy another high end vehicle new again. You hate money if you do imo

Wait 2-3 years, find low miles, finance, and drive cars for practically nothing if you're smart.

Shhh.... don't let the cat out of the bag. Without the people who lease there's less CPO's out there.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

This also assumes if you buy you will keep it for 9 years vs leasing a new one every 3 years. I buy and I usually only keep my cars about 2 years. It also assumes you're buying new. Over 2 years I don't think any of my cars have lost more than $10k when I sold them and that's worst case scenario. Most of them have been $5k or less.

Considering how often I change cars I have looked into leasing a lot, however it has never made any sense to me. Aside from the financial benefit to buying used there is also the psychological benefit that I'm not tied down to anything. I can drive it as often as I feel like and if the shit hit's the fan I can sell it on the spot and buy me a jalopy or since I pay cash for most of my cars I don't have to worry about shit.

I can understand the argument of leasing to always have the latest tech features or safety, but it makes zero financial sense. The argument about no repairs... okay, maybe you won't have to deal with taking it to a shop, but it's not like you are saving any money.

The post you quoted talked about paying $18k over 3 years and in the end you own nothing, which is exactly my point. 3 years ago I paid 9000 cash for my 2009 328i with 32k miles on it. I've owned it about 3 years, and that 9000 value has carried me through these 3 years. I've bought tires, brakes, and some small maintenance things, but I also have the ability to do everything myself. Since it's paid for I don't need anything besides comprehensive insurance. I could go lease a brand new BMW tomorrow if I wanted to, but why? You pay all this money and in the end you own nothing. Like you, I will always buy used cars with cash. In the past, I've even gotten lucky and bought cars that went up in demand, so I bought them with cash, drove them for 3-5 years, and sold them for more.

[David70]

The "you should plan better" is one of my favorites, fits almost every situation you ever faced but yet at the same time doesn't mean anything. Waiting to hear more from the people that never had something happen to them that they hadn't planned for.

As for the lease/purchase, new/used, yes some are better financial decisions than others. On the other hand if we were truly interested in the best financial decision we would never buy/lease a new/used BMW, after that you are weighing what you want compared to what it costs. I only buy used but I also occasionally go to expensive restaurants, expensive trips, etc. and none of these make the list of "best financial decision".

My favorite is the people that talk about buying used BMW's because this is the best financial decision (there are far better choices if trying to maximize savings).

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

I can understand the argument of leasing to always have the latest tech features or safety, but it makes zero financial sense. The argument about no repairs... okay, maybe you won't have to deal with taking it to a shop, but it's not like you are saving any money.

The post you quoted talked about paying $18k over 3 years and in the end you own nothing, which is exactly my point. 3 years ago I paid 9000 cash for my 2009 328i with 32k miles on it. I've owned it about 3 years, and that 9000 value has carried me through these 3 years. I've bought tires, brakes, and some small maintenance things, but I also have the ability to do everything myself. Since it's paid for I don't need anything besides comprehensive insurance. I could go lease a brand new BMW tomorrow if I wanted to, but why? You pay all this money and in the end you own nothing. Like you, I will always buy used cars with cash. In the past, I've even gotten lucky and bought cars that went up in demand, so I bought them with cash, drove them for 3-5 years, and sold them for more.

Leasing is excellent option if you can deduct the entire payment as a business expense and OR have limited ability to DIY.

[Alfisti]

Over here you can deduct depreciation on a used vehicle. Even then, it's fools gold.

Even at the highest marginal rate here (53%) you can only claim 75% o fuse at most, if not 50%. At 50% you're only saving 25% of the lease cost.

[Cyberdemon]

These arguments get tired. Trying to compare the 10 year old car you drive and the cost of it vs leasing a new car is ridiculous.

You want the most economical way to get around, drive a 92 Camry til the wheels fall off.

I bought my M3 but have leased all my other German cars. There are plenty of reasons why leasing can work out well.

1 - Research leasehackr - you'll find that what you pay at a dealer for a lease is probably a terrible rate. By stacking incentives, finding the correct time of year to lease and leveraging the right programs you can get VERY aggressive deals on many models that you can't get through financing the same car used.

2 - "Don't give a shit attitude" - I'm about to drop $3k on paint correction, respray, ceramic coating and PPF. Never had to worry about having a nice car and investing in it long term with a lease. Keep it washed and throw wax on every now and then at best. You can drive it hard and put it away wet because it's under warranty 100% of the time.

3 - Some people like new things. I wasn't working 80 hours a week to come home and worry about the $100/mo extra that was going into a lease vs finance. I had the piece of mind and was going to spend more than that one night out for dinner, fixed cost is a lot more predictable than worrying about what happens if my throttle actuators explode.

Also, keep in mind theres an amount of risk. Car is in a major accident? Great - you now are hit for that diminished value. My coworker bought his Macan, got rear ended a few days later and when trying to sell the car was getting offers $15k below what he would have gotten otherwise. That money is very real.

Most leases allow you to swap as well, which is usually a very low way of swapping out of a car for minimal risk.

Nobody bought a luxury car because it was a financially smart decision - theres Nissan Versas for that.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by David70

The "you should plan better" is one of my favorites, fits almost every situation you ever faced but yet at the same time doesn't mean anything. Waiting to hear more from the people that never had something happen to them that they hadn't planned for.

As for the lease/purchase, new/used, yes some are better financial decisions than others. On the other hand if we were truly interested in the best financial decision we would never buy/lease a new/used BMW, after that you are weighing what you want compared to what it costs. I only buy used but I also occasionally go to expensive restaurants, expensive trips, etc. and none of these
make the list of "best financial decision".

My favorite is the people that talk about buying used BMW's because this is the best financial decision (there are far better choices if trying to maximize savings).

I don't personally care what anyone does. You want a new car every 3 years and don't want to deal with shit and don't mind paying extra for that then great. Just don't argue that you do it because you're saving money. That's like my friend who many years ago spent like $40k on a prius and would always try to justify the purchase by claiming he saved so much on gas. No. If you did the math you would know you were better off buying a cheaper car with ok gas mileage. You just wanted a 40k prius, which is fine by me, it's your life you do what you want, but don't come tell me 2+2 is 10.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by smrtypants44

Shhh.... don't let the cat out of the bag. Without the people who lease there's less CPO's out there.

Exactly! How am I supposed to take advantage of someone else taking that initial depreciation hit and get an amazing vehicle for 30k below MSRP if they don't keep leasing?!

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by ga9213

Exactly! How am I supposed to take advantage of someone else taking that initial depreciation hit and get an amazing vehicle for 30k below MSRP if they don't keep leasing?!

Having seen how I drive my leases I would never want to actually own one of those cars out of warranty. Washed with dirty sponges at the winter drive through, oil changes every 15k, driven hard regardless of oil temps, zero regards for quality gas, etc. And I treated my cars fairly well compared to what your average housewife will do with parking by braille.

I've only ever bought cars new or 1 owner non lease where you can validate they actually took care of the car. Especially on anything high performance.

"Hmm my turbo failed at 45k? Weird"

The difference of buying vs leasing should only be based on the statement of "I want to drive a new car every few years". Any other comparison is unrealistic, and you're just trying to preach fiscally conservative values on a very narrow portion of someones budget. And at that point it's very easy to model the costs between the two. Some cars lease like shit and should 100% be purchased, but BMW historically has always had very aggressive lease rates and programs that can be taken advantage of. Just look at the insane deals some guys were able to get on the M3/M4 CS for ~$700/mo. Buying that car outright and selling it would have been a massive cost difference.


Things you also shouldn't say even if they might be true:

"Don't rent an apartment, you'll never be able to afford to buy!"
"Wear clothes from goodwill stores and Walmart"
"Why eat out and buy organic food when Costco sells ramen for $.99?"

The person who can afford a Land Rover lease for $1000 probably doesn't need finanical advice for someone whos mortage costs less than their handbag.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Having seen how I drive my leases I would never want to actually own one of those cars out of warranty. Washed with dirty sponges at the winter drive through, oil changes every 15k, driven hard regardless of oil temps, zero regards for quality gas, etc. And I treated my cars fairly well compared to what your average housewife will do with parking by braille.

Well yeah, I wouldn't buy one if they showed deficient service history...and I wouldn't buy it if it hadn't been certified.

My '18 was a 2 year lease for the first owner and I bought it certified. I've got a solid 3 years of warranty on it...and got it for about 25k under original MSRP. Test drove a '19 service loaner they had on the lot with 5k miles and I couldn't tell a difference. Totally worth it to me.

Doesn't use oil, plugs were good, oil changes on this history every 8k and super clean...looked nearly as good as new.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

The person who can afford a Land Rover lease for $1000 probably doesn't need finanical advice for someone whos mortage costs less than their handbag.

Probably not, but that person is probably not on a BMW forum staring threads titled "I have lease regrets".

[Savageenterprise]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Leasing is excellent option if you can deduct the entire payment as a business expense and OR have limited ability to DIY.

This. My 340 costs me effectively 2/3 of the payment Due to tax write off.

If you have a business you can fully deduct your car lease payment as a business expense and it makes leasing more attractive. I’m not saying I would necessarily spend less by leasing but it helps close the gap quite a bit.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Probably not, but that person is probably not on a BMW forum staring threads titled "I have lease regrets".

Yeah but why did it diverge into a financial discussion, he clearly stated "My life situation changed, and now I drive 2X"

That's totally fine, thats what excess mileage buyup, a second daily driver or swap a lease is for.

My first 335i lease I exited after 2.5 years because I got bored and really wanted a convertible and the M235i was way more fun to drive. I managed to do a BMW pull ahead (back when they still existed).

My M235i I owned while driving 50 miles a day, after ~18 months I got a job in NYC which required me to spend $500/mo on train tickets and only drive 1 mile a day. So I bought a $100 bicycle and a VW GTI for commuting.

18 months after owning the GTI my son was born, realized how hard it is to fit a car seat into that car when you are 6'4, so swapped that lease for a $1K incentive and bounced to the polar opposite end of a Mazda CX-9.

After Covid hit I stopped working in NYC and got a job back on LI. For the forseeable future I'll be working fully remote and I have an X5 lease for my wife, so I bought the M3 since I know if it doesn't work out, I should be able to flip it pretty easily. Also the G20 M340i looks horrible and I didn't want another FXX chassis car.

Point being? I changed jobs, houses, kids, quarantine status all while leasing and never had an issue swapping into a new car for anything more than $1k. In fact on my Mazda I had equity so I got 3 months in back payments making my effective payment on a brand new $42k car around $350 a month. That same car financed would have required me to pay full sales tax on the vehicle and cost closer to $500/mo with nothing down on a 60 month loan if you compare the exact same sales price I got. So thats a $4500 savings for leasing vs financing in an apples to apples model.

So for the OP, in many circumstances leasing is very flexible. Just don't get trapped in a lease that doesn't allow swaps - it's one of the best perks of BMW how easy they make the process.

[premier3is]

Originally Posted by ga9213

Exactly! How am I supposed to take advantage of someone else taking that initial depreciation hit and get an amazing vehicle for 30k below MSRP if they don't keep leasing?!

Amazing you say? Lol...

Car probably has been beat down to the max lol. Plus most ppl don't even take care of their leases like you'd expect, shit I know people when I leased a lexus who would just say fuck it put 87 gas not 91 as recommended. Imagine the other shit they done.

Fuck buying a lease return. Call me an asshole but if you gotta look for a CPO or used "deal" for a BMW, you probably should get yourself a Civic or something instead. No need to show off you drive a "BMW" when you purchased it for like 20k or lower lol.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Leasing is excellent option if you can deduct the entire payment as a business expense and OR have limited ability to DIY.

Oh definitely. Like I said there are certainly good arguments for it, like wanting to drive the newest vehicle with best safety and tech. I totally get that and what other people do with their money is their business. I just don't get the "it's a better financial decision" argument for the cases different than scenarios like you mentioned.

One of my relatives leases a brand new Honda every three years. He is retired and probably drives it 2,000 miles a year. Makes no sense but it's what he wants so good for him.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by premier3is

Amazing you say? Lol...

Car probably has been beat down to the max lol. Plus most ppl don't even take care of their leases like you'd expect, shit I know people when I leased a lexus who would just say fuck it put 87 gas not 91 as recommended. Imagine the other shit they done.

Fuck buying a lease return. Call me an asshole but if you gotta look for a CPO or used "deal" for a BMW, you probably should get yourself a Civic or something instead. No need to show off you drive a "BMW" when you purchased it for like 20k or lower lol.

You sound a hair salty.

Mines perfect. Has all the power, service up to date, plugs, timing and fuel trims a show a healthy engine.

I buy a car to drive it for what the car is and does, not show it off as some status symbol based in how much I can afford.

That would be super douchey.

[premier3is]

Originally Posted by ga9213

You sound a hair salty.

Mines perfect. Has all the power, service up to date, plugs, timing and fuel trims a show a healthy engine.

I buy a car to drive it for what the car is and does, not show it off as some status symbol based in how much I can afford.

That would be super douchey.

I'm not salty, have no reason to be. I lease my cars brother not buy them pre-owned or CPO.

Also I'm sure someone buying a 2010 328i (or whatever) isnt buying it for the driving experience, as tech has come long way.

Not to say you buying them that old. This convo won't get anywhere as I've noticed on countless threads before, the leasers will lease and the buyers will buy. As my buddy EXE46 would say, "life's too short to buy boring cars" lol.

[Smgs1992]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

These arguments get tired. Trying to compare the 10 year old car you drive and the cost of it vs leasing a new car is ridiculous.

You want the most economical way to get around, drive a 92 Camry til the wheels fall off.

I bought my M3 but have leased all my other German cars. There are plenty of reasons why leasing can work out well.

1 - Research leasehackr - you'll find that what you pay at a dealer for a lease is probably a terrible rate. By stacking incentives, finding the correct time of year to lease and leveraging the right programs you can get VERY aggressive deals on many models that you can't get through financing the same car used.

2 - "Don't give a shit attitude" - I'm about to drop $3k on paint correction, respray, ceramic coating and PPF. Never had to worry about having a nice car and investing in it long term with a lease. Keep it washed and throw wax on every now and then at best. You can drive it hard and put it away wet because it's under warranty 100% of the time.

3 - Some people like new things. I wasn't working 80 hours a week to come home and worry about the $100/mo extra that was going into a lease vs finance. I had the piece of mind and was going to spend more than that one night out for dinner, fixed cost is a lot more predictable than worrying about what happens if my throttle actuators explode.

Also, keep in mind theres an amount of risk. Car is in a major accident? Great - you now are hit for that diminished value. My coworker bought his Macan, got rear ended a few days later and when trying to sell the car was getting offers $15k below what he would have gotten otherwise. That money is very real.

Most leases allow you to swap as well, which is usually a very low way of swapping out of a car for minimal risk.

Nobody bought a luxury car because it was a financially smart decision - theres Nissan Versas for that.

Your coworker shouldve negotiated that money into what the insurance company owes him. Always account for diminished value in the case of an accident.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by premier3is

I'm not salty, have no reason to be. I lease my cars brother not buy them pre-owned or CPO.

Also I'm sure someone buying a 2010 328i (or whatever) isnt buying it for the driving experience, as tech has come long way.

Not to say you buying them that old. This convo won't get anywhere as I've noticed on countless threads before, the leasers will lease and the buyers will buy. As my buddy EXE46 would say, "life's too short to buy boring cars" lol.

I'm driving a 2 year old M40i with 30k miles and is the exact same vehicle someone else is driving on lease still going another year with a 3 year...the difference is I'm driving mine with no restrictions, have 3 years warranty remaining and paid around 25k less than had I bought it new.

So thank you for leasing.