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      09-07-2019, 05:57 PM   #2355
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His EE degree has nothing to do with his observations though...

I wish Taycan has better marketing stuff out there, yes it can repeat, and the repeat able number is better than Model S non repeatable number (and better than Model 3P repeatable or Model S repeatable non ludicrous mode) but for marketing sake they needed it to beat the absolute number...
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      09-09-2019, 03:39 PM   #2356
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Interesting; Analyst believes $0 valuation for TSLA:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...luation-2019-9

So much for all that "demand" and "increasing sales":
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      09-09-2019, 03:54 PM   #2357
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Seems about 15k is about the realistic average. I suspect those last 5 months of last year were really high to meet the backlog of Model 3 deliveries and perhaps to build up stock levels across the world for quick deliveries

Now that they are up to date with orders the real demand seems to be around 15k per month.

To this point last year they had done 84,127 deliveries, this year is 115,550 so they are still quite a bit ahead but if it sits at about 19,000 per month which would seem about correct for the next 4 months the total deliveries for the year will be about the same.

I wonder if it just so happens that December is a bumper month to make sure that the overall annual sales figures are an improvement and we see a huge drop off in January or February 2020 like we did this year.
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      09-10-2019, 04:27 PM   #2358
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I would assume January or February is bad for all auto manufacturers.
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      09-10-2019, 05:29 PM   #2359
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Tesla's problem, as easily seen in the graph, is that the big tax incentive expired at the end of 2018. The halved one at the end of June and the last little bits end in December, I believe. Without the tax credits (and while others still have them), it could be a very tough road.
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      09-10-2019, 08:49 PM   #2360
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How big is tax incentive on model S? Relative to model s price I would think even 5k isn't that big of a deal. For model 3 they lowered price to match tax incentive no?
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      09-10-2019, 08:53 PM   #2361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiceyxi View Post
When I was looking at a Model 3 the sales person referred to the interior as Vegan Leather. Not sure why, but that wording bothered me more than it should have. Plus, no leather in a luxury car just seems odd...
Model 3 isn't a luxury car though. So having cheap plastic seats makes sense.
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      09-10-2019, 09:06 PM   #2362
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Actually the lack of leather will be the mark of all modern cars in the future. Tesla is first in autos but the trend is to end the use of leather worldwide. The Leather industry is being replaced in numerous sectors.
as long as cattle is slaughter for beef the rest of the cow will be used. i don't see how slaughtering it for beef but discarding the rest will be more productive or beneficial than using the entire animal.
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      09-11-2019, 12:00 AM   #2363
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiceyxi View Post
When I was looking at a Model 3 the sales person referred to the interior as Vegan Leather. Not sure why, but that wording bothered me more than it should have. Plus, no leather in a luxury car just seems odd...
Model 3 isn't a luxury car though. So having cheap plastic seats makes sense.
It does surely sell at luxury car transaction prices.
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      09-11-2019, 05:29 PM   #2364
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Better drivers car (daily AND track) and better at everything else.

Frankly the fact that we are even debating material quality (which I find top notch in my Model 3, BTW) in a forum for performance cars, means that the traditional brands have already lost the battle.
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      09-11-2019, 06:17 PM   #2365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
Better drivers car (daily AND track) and better at everything else.

Frankly the fact that we are even debating material quality (which I find top notch in my Model 3, BTW) in a forum for performance cars, means that the traditional brands have already lost the battle.
Top notch material and Tesla don't belong in the same sentence.

This is not "a forum for performance cars", it is a forum for luxury sport sedans. BMW is a luxury manufacturer, not a pure sports car manufacturer so luxury plays a huge roll in BMW buyers' minds.
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      09-11-2019, 06:24 PM   #2366
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I would think most enthusiasts going into a Tesla would expect the quality to be lower but be willing to sacrifice it for the driving experience and uniqueness of an electric vehicle, as there aren't many other vehicles on the market that offer a similar experience/vehicle. I'd love a Model S, all I'm waiting for is it to be updated for a newer exterior and interior as well as some more luxury features, but I fear that won't happen for some time.
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      09-12-2019, 08:53 PM   #2367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 440xiGCMSport2 View Post
My friend recently got a new Model 3 and it has huge gaps in panels. Secondly, the interior is subpar not just because of fit and finish but also because of material quality. Lastly, his car was just rear-ended. For any other car, it would be about a $5k job and maybe a week for repairs. For his Model 3, it is a $15k CDN job, and it has taken them so far 2 months and counting.

Tesla may be the better daily driving car, but fails to measure up in other important areas.
Better drivers car (daily AND track) and better at everything else.

Frankly the fact that we are even debating material quality (which I find top notch in my Model 3, BTW) in a forum for performance cars, means that the traditional brands have already lost the battle.
Why then are you wasting your time on a bmw forum with us luddites?
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      09-13-2019, 12:52 AM   #2368
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Quote:
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Why then are you wasting your time on a bmw forum with us luddites?
Never argue with a Model 3 owner, the ones that frequent some of the other car forums I read all seem to have some inferiority complex if you say anything negative about their car. I donít know why but the ones Iíve seen posted here and elsewhere just have to be right about how much better their car is on another car forum. You should go to the Tesla forum and put their cars down and see how that works out for you. Itís sacrilege to say anything negative about a Tesla these days that itís borderline ridiculous. Hell, even some owners on the Tesla forum get bashed for complaining about issues they have and they are owners of the car.
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      09-13-2019, 02:06 AM   #2369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patgilm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Why then are you wasting your time on a bmw forum with us luddites?
Never argue with a Model 3 owner, the ones that frequent some of the other car forums I read all seem to have some inferiority complex if you say anything negative about their car. I don't know why but the ones I've seen posted here and elsewhere just have to be right about how much better their car is on another car forum. You should go to the Tesla forum and put their cars down and see how that works out for you. It's sacrilege to say anything negative about a Tesla these days that it's borderline ridiculous. Hell, even some owners on the Tesla forum get bashed for complaining about issues they have and they are owners of the car.
Yep! My partners at work who are TESLA lovers/owners (...mostly Model S's), future TESLA owners or TESLA stockholders are all over Elon's nuts, and preach endlessly about why TESLA is the best. There's also a thread on E46Fanatics that is full of prideful TESLA ridiculousness.
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      09-13-2019, 02:21 AM   #2370
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Tesla owner: my car is faster, more agile, easier to drive, and safer than anything I ever owned.

Thousands of BMW owners: but how could you leave the Ultimate Driver's Car (as shown by: no manual, no inline six for less than $50K, need for extra warranty or mechanical skills not to become a money pit) for something that has an extra millimeter in a panel gap?! You're a nutjob and a Musk fanboy!

Tesla owner: my car also gets all the new capabilities as they're developed by Tesla, for free.

BMW owners: panel gaps! panel gaps! panel gaps!
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      09-13-2019, 02:22 AM   #2371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Tesla owner: my car is faster, more agile, easier to drive, and safer than anything I ever owned.

Thousands of BMW owners: but how could you leave the Ultimate Driver's Car (as shown by: no manual, no inline six for less than $50K, need for extra warranty or mechanical skills not to become a money pit) for something that has an extra millimeter in a panel gap?!

Tesla owner: my car also gets all the new capabilities as they're developed by Tesla, for free.

BMW owners:


That's actually pretty funny.
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      09-13-2019, 05:24 AM   #2372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patgilm View Post
Never argue with a Model 3 owner, the ones that frequent some of the other car forums I read all seem to have some inferiority complex if you say anything negative about their car. I donít know why but the ones Iíve seen posted here and elsewhere just have to be right about how much better their car is on another car forum. You should go to the Tesla forum and put their cars down and see how that works out for you. Itís sacrilege to say anything negative about a Tesla these days that itís borderline ridiculous. Hell, even some owners on the Tesla forum get bashed for complaining about issues they have and they are owners of the car.
This! I am amazed by two things when I visit a Tesla forum:

1) How aggressive people get if someone even dares to say anything negative about the car. Some owner reported his car stopped in the middle of a highway with his whole family inside (pretty scary), and a lot of the replies were basically that he was a troll.

2) How willing Tesla fans are to just live with faults and niggles even if its a £45K+ car. Again, one example was smelly AC (never had that problem on any of my cars). Apparently it seems it is a design fault in the Model 3, yet owners are prepared to spray all sorts of chemicals regularly to keep the odours away... madness!

I seriously considered the Model 3 Performance (almost the same price as my M340i), but just by going through the forums, reading through the #TeslaQualityIssues thread on Twitter or the abysmal customer service (especially here in the UK), I felt its not the right time to go EV. I'll re-evaluate in 5 years time when there is more competition and Tesla improves its quality/service.
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      09-13-2019, 07:55 AM   #2373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Tesla owner: my car is faster, more agile, easier to drive, and safer than anything I ever owned.

Thousands of BMW owners: but how could you leave the Ultimate Driver's Car (as shown by: no manual, no inline six for less than $50K, need for extra warranty or mechanical skills not to become a money pit) for something that has an extra millimeter in a panel gap?! You're a nutjob and a Musk fanboy!

Tesla owner: my car also gets all the new capabilities as they're developed by Tesla, for free.

BMW owners: panel gaps! panel gaps! panel gaps!
Nothing about the cars have given me a bad impression of tesla - not the build quality, interior, tech, or anything else directly related to the cars. It's the Tesla owner's that have left me with a bad impression about tesla. I appreciate that their making trend setting cars, but if owning one means joining, or being lumped into the obnoxious cult that's associated with the brand, I'd rather not.
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      09-13-2019, 09:45 AM   #2374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Tesla owner: my car is faster, more agile, easier to drive, and safer than anything I ever owned.

Thousands of BMW owners: but how could you leave the Ultimate Driver's Car (as shown by: no manual, no inline six for less than $50K, need for extra warranty or mechanical skills not to become a money pit) for something that has an extra millimeter in a panel gap?! You're a nutjob and a Musk fanboy!

Tesla owner: my car also gets all the new capabilities as they're developed by Tesla, for free.

BMW owners: panel gaps! panel gaps! panel gaps!
Nothing about the cars have given me a bad impression of tesla - not the build quality, interior, tech, or anything else directly related to the cars. It's the Tesla owner's that have left me with a bad impression about tesla. I appreciate that their making trend setting cars, but if owning one means joining, or being lumped into the obnoxious cult that's associated with the brand, I'd rather not.
Tesla's worst enemy is Elon Musk himself. That company needs to be bought up by a legacy manufacturer if it is to survive long term. The Primma Donna at the helm time has come and gone. That guy is just a Tweet away to create mayhem for Tesla.
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      09-13-2019, 12:30 PM   #2375
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The attitude about Tesla comes from both sides.

Non-Tesla owners point to the various teething issues and ask how anyone could possibly be willing to put up with "all of those problems". They also suggest that Tesla owners must not be savvy enough to realize how poor their cars are overall by comparison with their favorite brand or model.

At the same time, Tesla owners overwhelmingly say the cars are the best they've ever owned. The brand's customer satisfaction scores top the charts. That doesn't mean that the owners think the cars are perfect nor without flaws - it only means that they enjoy the overall ownership experience more than the other cars they've owned..

There are those on both sides of the debate who are over-the-top - that's not just a Tesla thing.
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      09-13-2019, 12:59 PM   #2376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Nothing about the cars have given me a bad impression of tesla - not the build quality, interior, tech, or anything else directly related to the cars. It's the Tesla owner's that have left me with a bad impression about tesla. I appreciate that their making trend setting cars, but if owning one means joining, or being lumped into the obnoxious cult that's associated with the brand, I'd rather not.
I really appreciate the honesty here - that you are not tying to bash Tesla (or anyone else for that matter) based on made up "facts".

I do like BMWs - the ones launched before 2012 anyway (E90, E46, E39, even E60 with the bangleness), as well as Minis (still own one and love it). The point I keep making is the current crop is far from competitive. Forget about Tesla - everyone from Audi to Alfa already was ahead in driver involvement and BMW is not course correcting.

You will also notice that I am posting in a thread specifically about Tesla. I thought that was the point of having this thread. Tell me if you disagree.
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