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      10-15-2021, 07:46 PM   #45
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I think there were two points, although my second with some admitted sarcasm...

1) Considering GM's SuperCruise equal or superior is not "delusional" and is thought to be the case by several others. I only took the time to reply with those links after reading the excessive word "delusional" about one of many with this opinion.

2) Tesla AutoPilot has had a series of very unfortunate outcomes in situations that should not have occurred. Whether it is even ready for public use has been questioned.
Well super cruise only "works" on Freeways....and only on some freeways
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      10-15-2021, 07:54 PM   #46
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Well super cruise only "works" on Freeways....and only on some freeways
At least one article in those links goes through the pros/cons of the different venues where the feature can be used. The underlying theme that seems consistent, however, is the difference in safety. SuperCruise is deemed superior by design. Tesla AutoPilot's record to date does leave much to think about.

In any event, I only responded after reacting to the word "delusional" about a contrary opinion. I have no interest in ADAS and will special order to avoid as much of it as possible.
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      10-15-2021, 08:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
At least one article in those links goes through the pros/cons of the different venues where the feature can be used. The underlying theme that seems consistent, however, is the difference in safety. SuperCruise is deemed superior by design. Tesla AutoPilot's record to date does leave much to think about.

In any event, I only responded after reacting to the word "delusional" about a contrary opinion. I have no interest in ADAS and will special order to avoid as much of it as possible.
Yeah... i mean doesn't look like neither system is ready for prime time yet.... but Tesla's to me seems like the most capable at the moment... which works on almost any environment and doesn't depend on premapped roads...

maybe delusional was an overstatement
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      10-15-2021, 09:24 PM   #48
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can you show me the video ?
Check this out:

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      10-15-2021, 09:27 PM   #49
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Check this out:

but you actually need to turn the blinker on???

I just want to seat and if there is car in front that it will overtake it on it's own like FSD does

this doesn't look comparable to me
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      10-15-2021, 09:33 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
but you actually need to turn the blinker on???

I just want to seat and if there is car in front that it will overtake it on it's own like FSD does

this doesn't look comparable to me
DAP+ (since 2019) is not yet FSD. Below 40mph it drives by itself but needs blinker to indicate lane change.

And stopping at stop light(not sure about stop sign) also currently available with DAP+.

Maybe iDrive 8 release will see extra features that go beyond DAP+(will see).

https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/09/24/n...ruise-control/
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      10-16-2021, 12:32 AM   #51
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I think you really need to wait for real life test...

M3P does 0-60 in 3.... the i4 is almost a full second slower...
The current reviews have the M50 at 3.6/7.
Plenty fast enough for reaction time to matter a lot.

The TM3P is 3.1. The power to weight/torque is almost identical between the cars

A car is more than 0-60 times.

Stand a peeled boiled egg.on end, slice straight down, then lay it on the cut you just made..... Model 3/Y.

Yuck.
Right, it is more than 0-60

So what about the range?
What about self driving?
What about fast charging stations?

The i4 is a good effort and looks very nice for an EV but by most specs it can't even match/beat the M3P :
Range?
I'm fine with 250ish. my daughter has a bolt and it's 250ish. It works for what I do. works better now since my commute is to my home office.

Charging? Meh. I haven't done any road trips in the 335 I owned for 11 years. Furthest I've driven that car in a day is about 1/2 tank. I have an X5 which is much better for road trips.

Self driving? You are kidding? Tesla ADAS is Level 2 and nowhere near "self driving". I have been working on ASIL (Automotive Safety) for years and before that fault tolerant computing. I have designed processors for ASIL-D applications. I'm fully trained in ISO26262.

Tesla is not better than BMW ADAS and is probably worse. Tesla relies on cameras alone and eliminated Lidar/Radar which means that fog and rain cause issues. Full self driving requires redundancy. Tesla has no redundancy in it's vision system. It's a hands on system.

Cruise is a better system. GM is ahead of Tesla and so are other companies. Tesla just does a real good marking job for tech that it doesn't have.

Tesla quietly pushed an update because cars were running into emergency vehicles. NTHSA is opening an investigation.

Repeat after me. Tesla auto pilot and full self driving isn't.

The M3P has no car play, no HUD, no active suspension (cost reasons), camera only ADAS, has suspect build.quality.
Have you ever tried Tesla full self driving? Most likely not

And you say BMW or even GM's is better. You are delusional.

Can gm or BMW change lanes on it's own? Or detect stop signs or stop lights ? Maybe in 6-7 years
Yes they both can and I'm sorry but I'm not delusional.
BMW has traffic sign recognition and also adaptive regeneration and braking that is tied to GPS location. GM Cruise is stellar and you should read up on them.

BMW has auto emergency corridor. It won't come to the US but it will pull to the side of the road for emergency vehicles to pass.

Both GM and BMW are absolutely as good as Tesla and use additional sensors besides cameras.

Tesla has a problem with emergency vehicle in bad weather.

I have worked with multiple companies on ADAS and ASIL compliance for over five years. Part of that was working on processors that support lockstep execution and fault tolerance. I have been trained by Exida and TUV and have been certified. I know what's what in automotive safety.

Not currently what I am doing but I stopped doing that earlier this year.
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      10-16-2021, 12:47 AM   #52
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Right now freeway only is what I trust with ADAS. I don't care what Tesla calls it. There is nothing out there that does not require you hands to be on the wheel.

The "trolly problem" is real. Research it.

Waymo and a couple of others have "self driving" taxis and delivery vehicles and they have been granted permits for specific functionality where a driver does not have to have their hands on the wheel. At least in California and Arizona. But a driver still must be in the car to take control. Tesla is behind Waymo.

We can debate ADAS and ASIL (ISO26262) but we must all agree that Tesla is L2 ADAS and so it BMW and Cruise. If we can't agree to that as reality then there is nothing to debate.

Everyone that likes Tesla FSD/Auto Pilot, repeat after me. Tesla is L2 ADAS and nothing more.
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      10-16-2021, 12:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I have worked with multiple companies on ADAS and ASIL compliance for over five years. Part of that was working on processors that support lockstep execution and fault tolerance. I have been trained by Exida and TUV and have been certified. I know what's what in automotive safety.

Not currently what I am doing but I stopped doing that earlier this year.
My impression is that most who do not work on processors/systems that enable ADAS miss the scope of the FSD problem(s). I would likely stay away from FSD for a long while waiting for the techs to fully develop.
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      10-16-2021, 09:55 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I have worked with multiple companies on ADAS and ASIL compliance for over five years. Part of that was working on processors that support lockstep execution and fault tolerance. I have been trained by Exida and TUV and have been certified. I know what's what in automotive safety.

Not currently what I am doing but I stopped doing that earlier this year.
My impression is that most who do not work on processors/systems that enable ADAS miss the scope of the FSD problem(s). I would likely stay away from FSD for a long while waiting for the techs to fully develop.
But I've never seen any other vehicle be able to stop and turn on regular streets like Tesla does :

Maybe it's cause others only work on freeways… Waymo does work on streets but it has 500lbs of boxes/stuff inside/on top of the vehicle. What other me normal looking car can do "self driving" like Tesla?

Also just the amount of data Tesla can collect should be 100s times more than any other manufacturer, so seems like they should be able to handle edge cases much better
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      10-16-2021, 10:34 AM   #55
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The reason why Teslas ADAS seem to be better is that let it do more (take more risk) BMW or any major car company just cant risk it.
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      10-16-2021, 11:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
But I've never seen any other vehicle be able to stop and turn on regular streets like Tesla does :

Maybe it's cause others only work on freeways… Waymo does work on streets but it has 500lbs of boxes/stuff inside/on top of the vehicle. What other me normal looking car can do "self driving" like Tesla?

Also just the amount of data Tesla can collect should be 100s times more than any other manufacturer, so seems like they should be able to handle edge cases much better
A hint provided in your post is "amount of data Tesla can collect", so basically it is edge inference with centralized learning, and we know how well that has been working.

One option may be to move learning onto the car but the power profile(plus extra weight) will drain the battery and range like crazy.

So the practical solution right now is similar to Cruise, which is fixed hwy topology(no need to relearn) and incremental real-time learn + infer. I think that is quite reasonable with current system capabilities.

But obviously Tesla cannot tell u that or else that cannot overcharge $10k for their L2 ADAS.
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      10-16-2021, 11:28 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I have worked with multiple companies on ADAS and ASIL compliance for over five years. Part of that was working on processors that support lockstep execution and fault tolerance. I have been trained by Exida and TUV and have been certified. I know what's what in automotive safety.

Not currently what I am doing but I stopped doing that earlier this year.
My impression is that most who do not work on processors/systems that enable ADAS miss the scope of the FSD problem(s). I would likely stay away from FSD for a long while waiting for the techs to fully develop.
But I've never seen any other vehicle be able to stop and turn on regular streets like Tesla does :

Maybe it's cause others only work on freeways… Waymo does work on streets but it has 500lbs of boxes/stuff inside/on top of the vehicle. What other me normal looking car can do "self driving" like Tesla?

Also just the amount of data Tesla can collect should be 100s times more than any other manufacturer, so seems like they should be able to handle edge cases much better
You have just stated why Tesla isn't FSD. Look at what Waymo carts around to understand the environment.

That 500lbs of stuff is redundancy and sensors.
The fact that Tesla is a vision only system with no redundant sensors means it can never be FSD.

Cruise is only mapped highways and some major streets. They use pre mapped data. You can remove you hands with super cruise. They have redundancy that Tesla does not have. Cruise is hands free where FSD is not. FSD requires you always keep your hands on the wheel.

Cruise is L2+.

A system that requires hands is L2.
BMW supports auto pull over for emergency vehicles, GPS based ADAS awareness, realtime updates, stop sign/light awareness, adaptive cruise and braking, etc It's L2.

Tesla takes risks that would tank BMW and GM. Can you imagine GM or BMW cars running into emergency vehicles? That is exactly what a few Tesla's did. Tesla pushed an update and failed to notify NHTSA. Turn out since Tesla can push OTA updates they fail to notify when there shod be a recall and just push updates.

Tesla plays fast an loose with driver safety.
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      10-16-2021, 11:38 AM   #58
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
But I've never seen any other vehicle be able to stop and turn on regular streets like Tesla does :

Maybe it's cause others only work on freeways… Waymo does work on streets but it has 500lbs of boxes/stuff inside/on top of the vehicle. What other me normal looking car can do "self driving" like Tesla?

Also just the amount of data Tesla can collect should be 100s times more than any other manufacturer, so seems like they should be able to handle edge cases much better
A hint provided in your post is "amount of data Tesla can collect", so basically it is edge inference with centralized learning, and we know how well that has been working.

One option may be to move learning onto the car but the power profile(plus extra weight) will drain the battery and range like crazy.

So the practical solution right now is similar to Cruise, which is fixed hwy topology(no need to relearn) and incremental real-time learn + infer. I think that is quite reasonable with current system capabilities.

But obviously Tesla cannot tell u that or else that cannot overcharge $10k for their L2 ADAS.
You aren't going to do edge learning.
Like you said the weight and power are.prohibative.

Also adaptive algorithms in a realtime are a bad idea.

Cruise, BMW and others have a more conservative approach that is less likely to kill or injure.

MobilEye has a fully redundant system of processor and system input. Continental does also. There has been some consolidation in the area and I expect more in the next couple of years.

MobilEye is Intel.
Nvidia has a platform.
Cruise is owned by GM.
Continental is contracting for others to do chip development.

We aren't to the level of FSD in regular passenger cars. It's still specialized with big boxes on top of cars and very few licenses granted in very specific areas for FSD. The leaders are Cruise and Waymo.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...less-cars.html
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      10-16-2021, 12:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
But I've never seen any other vehicle be able to stop and turn on regular streets like Tesla does :

Maybe it's cause others only work on freeways… Waymo does work on streets but it has 500lbs of boxes/stuff inside/on top of the vehicle. What other me normal looking car can do "self driving" like Tesla?

Also just the amount of data Tesla can collect should be 100s times more than any other manufacturer, so seems like they should be able to handle edge cases much better
A hint provided in your post is "amount of data Tesla can collect", so basically it is edge inference with centralized learning, and we know how well that has been working.

One option may be to move learning onto the car but the power profile(plus extra weight) will drain the battery and range like crazy.

So the practical solution right now is similar to Cruise, which is fixed hwy topology(no need to relearn) and incremental real-time learn + infer. I think that is quite reasonable with current system capabilities.

But obviously Tesla cannot tell u that or else that cannot overcharge $10k for their L2 ADAS.
You aren't going to do edge learning.
Like you said the weight and power are.prohibative.

Also adaptive algorithms in a realtime are a bad idea.

Cruise, BMW and others have a more conservative approach that is less likely to kill or injure.

MobilEye has a fully redundant system of processor and system input. Continental does also. There has been some consolidation in the area and I expect more in the next couple of years.

MobilEye is Intel.
Nvidia has a platform.
Cruise is owned by GM.
Continental is contracting for others to do chip development.

We aren't to the level of FSD in regular passenger cars. It's still specialized with big boxes on top of cars and very few licenses granted in very specific areas for FSD. The leaders are Cruise and Waymo.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...less-cars.html
Here is a Popular Science article on the i4/iX.
It talks about the integrated braking system of the cars and how it works.

Also talks about the motor which lead in tech because they use induction/electromagnet where others are still using rare earth.

There is a lot more to tech than ADAS.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/bmw-ix-bmw-i4-review/
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      10-16-2021, 12:20 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Right, it is more than 0-60

So what about the range?
What about self driving?
What about fast charging stations?

The i4 is a good effort and looks very nice for an EV but by most specs it can't even match/beat the M3P :
I guess in the US it's a bit different. Where I live ..

Range: average weekly mileage is less than 300 miles and most trips are well covered by the range of most new EVs including the i4.

Self driving: well if you really want self-driving, I guess Tesla are a little ahead here but 7 or 8 years ahead as I've seen suggested on this tread, no way, maybe a year or two, but I'm not sure it's an area other manufacturers are as focus on as Tesla seem to be. Personally if I wanted self-driving I'd call a taxi.

Tesla fast charging stations: They don't really exist here, Tesla has 7(?) superchargers in the country. I do all my charging at home, but if I do need to charge elsewhere there are plenty of 3rd party options.
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      10-16-2021, 12:57 PM   #61
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Tesla does use AC induction motor, is that the same a BMW's induction motor?

https://provscons.com/heres-why-tesl...uction-motors/

Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Here is a Popular Science article on the i4/iX.
It talks about the integrated braking system of the cars and how it works.

Also talks about the motor which lead in tech because they use induction/electromagnet where others are still using rare earth.

There is a lot more to tech than ADAS.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/bmw-ix-bmw-i4-review/
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      10-16-2021, 01:35 PM   #62
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I just can't get pass the point that the i4m is heavier, slower, less range, more expensive than the M3P

I'll give you the whole quality thing, and the exterior looks the best of any EV

but I would expect the BMW to be quicker and above all, lighter than the Tesla if this is supposed to be the ultimate driving machine :

I'm ok with the premium if it performs better
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      10-16-2021, 01:45 PM   #63
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I just can't get pass the point that the i4m is heavier, slower, less range, more expensive than the M3P

I'll give you the whole quality thing, and the exterior looks the best of any EV

but I would expect the BMW to be quicker and above all, lighter than the Tesla if this is supposed to be the ultimate driving machine :
It maybe the case that Tesla skips on safety to hit weight and range targets, and consumers should be aware of it.

The battery chemistry is not improving and thermal runaways are real, so informed consumers should carefully weight(no punt intended) the tradeoffs.
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      10-16-2021, 01:56 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
I just can't get pass the point that the i4m is heavier, slower, less range, more expensive than the M3P

I'll give you the whole quality thing, and the exterior looks the best of any EV

but I would expect the BMW to be quicker and above all, lighter than the Tesla if this is supposed to be the ultimate driving machine :
It maybe the case that Tesla skips on safety to hit weight and range targets, and consumers should be aware of it.

The battery chemistry is not improving and thermal runaways are real, so informed consumers should carefully weight(no punt intended) the tradeoffs.
Could be but according to this seems it has high safety ratings

"The Tesla Model 3 is the only electric car (not including SUVs) to earn a 2021 IIHS Top Safety Pick+. "

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...electric-cars/
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      10-16-2021, 02:17 PM   #65
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Could be but according to this seems it has high safety ratings

"The Tesla Model 3 is the only electric car (not including SUVs) to earn a 2021 IIHS Top Safety Pick+. "

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...electric-cars/
This is a good performance, no doubt, but it is a laboratory performance of a test vehicle hitting a barrier or a movable barrier impacting a vehicle. Tesla did well managing the impacts for which they knew the exact details when designing the vehicle, as do all OEMs. As some engineers I used to work with said, "Show me the crash and I'll design you the vehicle."

All OEMs have fatalities in their products. But, some real world events with Tesla owners who are no longer with us have raised other new concerns ranging from post-impact fires difficult to control to crashes traced to AutoPilot usage. How other entering OEMs do in IIHS testing remains to be seen, but all the OEMs know what they are expected to achieve by the marketplace. All things being equal, mass is beneficial.
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      10-16-2021, 02:42 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Tesla does use AC induction motor, is that the same a BMW's induction motor?

https://provscons.com/heres-why-tesl...uction-motors/

Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Here is a Popular Science article on the i4/iX.
It talks about the integrated braking system of the cars and how it works.

Also talks about the motor which lead in tech because they use induction/electromagnet where others are still using rare earth.

There is a lot more to tech than ADAS.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/bmw-ix-bmw-i4-review/
The TM3 dual motor uses two types.of motors. They still use rare earth materials in one.

https://insideevs.com/news/461811/vi...tor-explained/

But I'm trying to point out the Tesla isn't as far ahead as everyone thinks.

Because they label/mislabel FSD and Auto Pilot the assumption is that they lead.
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