[Io]

Surprising. I was expecting the TM3P to be faster.
A shame the front of the i4 is so aesthetically controversial, else it would have been a huge win. I would pick the Tesla just because it looks nicer.
Well, I would prefer the Taycan, but the budget is not the same 😅

[GoldfishTX]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Tesla's US supercharger network has been funded by at least $1.5B of US taxpayer money, so the network should really be open to general public.

Where is this figure coming from? I'm not aware of any mass subsidies Tesla received for the supercharger network.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

$10k for L2 is quite expensive.

It will never be full hands off, no matter what Elon promises. They are pushing marketing hype but the ADAS in new BMW with the latest MobilEye tech is better than Tesla. It offers redundancy to the cameras with other sensors.

FSD in Tesla will never move beyond L2.

This article is a bit old but it is still applicable because Tesla is still camera only with no redundancy in cameras and Elon still claims he can get to L5 ADAS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...-2-autonomous/

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by perezr10

My problem with them is basically that they are an embarrassment to American manufacturing.

I agree wholeheartedly; this strikes close to home for me and is a key reason I went from an early pre-launch M3 deposit holder to a confirmed rejector. I'm open to the brand if they ever launch high quality products.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by GoldfishTX

Where is this figure coming from? I'm not aware of any mass subsidies Tesla received for the supercharger network.

200k units@$7.5k each is $1.5B of US taxpayer money.

[EDWYER]

Great job BMW!

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

200k units@$7.5k each is $1.5B of US taxpayer money.

Then what about the 1.5B GM got ? They didn't build any chargers

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

The what about the 1.5B GM got ? They didn't build any chargers

GM a few months ago did announce 40000 public L2 chargers for $0.75B.

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...m-charger.html

VW's Electrify America network is open to public too.

Surely Tesla can stick to status quo, but likely will miss out US taxpayer money that GM and VW will get from the infrastructure bill.

[GoldfishTX]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

200k units@$7.5k each is $1.5B of US taxpayer money.

That's nonsense. That money didn't even go to Tesla.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by GoldfishTX

That's nonsense. That money didn't even go to Tesla.

That money allowed Tesla to charge extra $7.5k per unit(up to first 200k), and directly contributed to Tesla's coffer.

[GoldfishTX]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

That money allowed Tesla to charge extra $7.5k per unit(up to first 200k), and that money directly contributed to Tesla's coffer.

It's a tax credit that went to the buyer. Tesla got zero dollars for it, and didn't make an extra 7.5k in profit on each vehicle sale back then, either.

They're also not the only company to max out produced vehicles for this credit, but they are the only one with a massive charging network in the US.

Hate Tesla all you want, but the supercharger network was not taxpayer funded.

[techwhiz1]

As.of 2015 Tesla and the companies it owned had collected $4.5 billion in government subsidies. I don't know the current figure.

Tesla has recently raised prices in anticipation of the new infrastructure bills.

I don't care if he opens up the charging network or not. I charge at home. But if he asks for anymore incentives he needs to give something back.

I'm not railing against Tesla but In the same breath Elon blasts California, he has no reluctance getting a lease in Lathrop, Ca for on land for employee parking for $1.

Alameda county gave huge breaks to get his production and facility in Fremont off the ground.

Just to be clear. My dislike for Tesla is orthogonal to my like for BMW. I don't like them for their shoddy quality, their deceptive practices calling their ADAS, Autopilot and FSD. I don't like that Tesla got tax breaks in my country then Elon talked crap. They still seek tax incentives.

Elon got pissed because Alameda county wouldn't let him remain open and Tesla had to play by the rules like everyone else.

I wouldn't have a Model 3 if you gave it to me.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It will never be full hands off, no matter what Elon promises. They are pushing marketing hype but the ADAS in new BMW with the latest MobilEye tech is better than Tesla. It offers redundancy to the cameras with other sensors.

FSD in Tesla will never move beyond L2.

This article is a bit old but it is still applicable because Tesla is still camera only with no redundancy in cameras and Elon still claims he can get to L5 ADAS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...-2-autonomous/

Never say never. History has proven absolutes like this wrong so many times, it's not worth making them. Brilliant people tend to find a way.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by GoldfishTX

It's a tax credit that went to the buyer. Tesla got zero dollars for it, and didn't make an extra 7.5k in profit on each vehicle sale back then, either.

They're also not the only company to max out produced vehicles for this credit, but they are the only one with a massive charging network in the US.

Hate Tesla all you want, but the supercharger network was not taxpayer funded.

Another way to think of this is that, without $7.5k tax credit, Tesla prices were $7.5k more than customers were willing to pay, and that can affect Tesla's rampup.

So 200k x $7.5k = $1.5B is US taxpayer money to fund Tesla's operations including rollout of supercharger network.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Never say never. History has proven absolutes like this wrong so many times, it's not worth making them. Brilliant people tend to find a way.

Beyond L2 you are allowed to remove your hands from the wheel.

To support that function, you must provide graceful fail. If you do not have a secondary sensor you cannot positively locate in the lane if the primary sensor fails. Teslas are blind on sensor failure. For L3 and above you cannot be blind on a single point of failure.

That is the problem with Tesla ADAS; a single camera failure immediately renders some function unusable without graceful failure.

L3 requires redundancy that Tesla only has on their processor clusters. Elon had engineering remove all secondary sensors several years ago.

This is why Cruise, BMW, Mercedes and Ford can all offer hands free driving of some sort and Tesla cannot.

Also with a camera only system; fog, rain and other conditions can render the systems non functional.

[GoldfishTX]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Another way to think of this is that, without $7.5k tax credit, Tesla prices were $7.5k more than customers were willing to pay, and that can affect Tesla's rampup.

So 200k x $7.5k = $1.5B is US taxpayer money to fund Tesla's operations including rollout of supercharger network.

I understand how you did the math. I'm telling you that your logic is fundamentally flawed. Where is the GM charging network? Why didn't the prices drop by 7.5k immediately after the tax credit vanished? The money may have increased sales, but Tesla hasn't had a year with more cars than sales in years now with zero tax credit. It clearly wasn't the key to holding the business together, and it certainly didn't pay for the supercharger network, most of which has been built AFTER the tax credit expired.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

As.of 2015 Tesla and the companies it owned had collected $4.5 billion in government subsidies. I don't know the current figure.

Tesla has recently raised prices in anticipation of the new infrastructure bills.

I don't care if he opens up the charging network or not. I charge at home. But if he asks for anymore incentives he needs to give something back.

Yes the Tesla price hikes are to catch the latest EV infrastructure bills, so just like the first chunk of 200k x $7.5k = $1.5B US taxpayer money, Tesla likely will want extra US taxpayer money.

Musk did say in 7/2021 US supercharger will open up soon, the rationale likely will be that the infrastructure bill requires charging infrastructure to "have the ability to serve vehicles produced by more than one vehicle manufacturer." in order to be funded.

[GoldfishTX]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

As.of 2015 Tesla and the companies it owned had collected $4.5 billion in government subsidies. I don't know the current figure.

Tesla has recently raised prices in anticipation of the new infrastructure bills.

I don't care if he opens up the charging network or not. I charge at home. But if he asks for anymore incentives he needs to give something back.

2.5 billion is the US number, of which, more than 2billion came from state governments wanting the tax revenue. This is very common across basically every industry.

Tesla raised prices in response to inflation and supply chain changes. Everything is more expensive now. Their prices didn't go up by 10k on the models that would have qualified for the build back better bill or whatever it's called now.

Agreed that you can't talk trash about incentives and take a bunch, though.

[pikcachu]

If anything it's better if all tax credits are gone for Tesla. They don't need any.

Their margins are like 28-29% , for them it's better if nobody gets any credits as the BBB is dead in the water

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by GoldfishTX

I understand how you did the math. I'm telling you that your logic is fundamentally flawed. Where is the GM charging network? Why didn't the prices drop by 7.5k immediately after the tax credit vanished? The money may have increased sales, but Tesla hasn't had a year with more cars than sales in years now with zero tax credit. It clearly wasn't the key to holding the business together, and it certainly didn't pay for the supercharger network, most of which has been built AFTER the tax credit expired.

GM did announce $0.7B 40000 L2 public charger network.

The 200k x $7.5k = $1.5B was what Fed earmarked to pop up each EV maker including Tesla.

Tesla used that $1.5B (that could stay in its coffer after credit expired) to expand its business including supercharger infrastructure.

And Tesla did drop prices when fed credit phased out.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

GM did announce $0.7B 40000 L2 public charger network.

The 200k x $7.5k = $1.5B was what Fed earmarked to pop up each EV maker including Tesla.

Tesla used that $1.5B (that could stay in its coffer after credit expired) to expand its business including supercharger infrastructure.

And Tesla did drop prices when fed credit phased out.

Tesla supercharger network costed way more than 1.5B

1.5B is like a drop in the bucket

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Their margins are like 28-29% , for them it's better if nobody gets any credits as the BBB is dead in the water

That's why I own Tesla's best product, which is not its cars.