[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by zorgzx

Please do share some of those 5000 tidbits of insights.
How DO you do phone conferences in a 991 turbo on the way to a meeting 200km away? just drive 80km/h?

I don't live in the us, and buy my cars for fun. Some of them for investment. Like my NSX and a 997. But NOT the i8.

I DO agree that the gt3's sell over price. But I allso think it isnt a sustainable situation. Production of the 991.2 GT3 is way higher, and the waiting list nearly empty. At least here in DK. So I think the'yre likely to drop to a sane level.. perhaps 20% below msrp (wich is till fantastic and on par with ferraris). THAT could setup our threadstarter up for a loss in the region of 70K+.
Now he has a 90K car that is prbbly worth 70K, and likely to fall to perhaps 50-60 over the next 1-2 years.

My point was he might have saved himself ANOTHER big loss. AND BTW a GT3 is a shitty car round town.

Now I may be wrong that the market continues to skyrocket on GT3's. Granted. I just don't think so.

Value aside, and assuming the GT3 is spec'd without the carbon bucket seats and with front axle lift, the GT3 would be a better daily in my opinion vs the i8.

But because the low depreciation curve on low mileage GT3's, people with GT3's generally opt to daily other cars. My 991.1 has risen in value nicely over the past 6 months as it has sat in my garage waiting for the hot California summer to cool down to get back out to the track. Why? There is a floor on the price thanks to 997 GT3's still trading hands over US $100k and of course the realization of markups on 991.2's making it a $200k car, plus the gift 10 year 120k engine warranty from Porsche. In those same 6 months the value of the i8 has gone down significantly so I'm happy have a BMW lease where I get to just turn it in next year.

[zorgzx]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Value aside, and assuming the GT3 is spec'd without the carbon bucket seats and with front axle lift, the GT3 would be a better daily in my opinion vs the i8.

But because the low depreciation curve on low mileage GT3's, people with GT3's generally opt to daily other cars. My 991.1 has risen in value nicely over the past 6 months as it has sat in my garage waiting for the hot California summer to cool down to get back out to the track. Why? There is a floor on the price thanks to 997 GT3's still trading hands over US $100k and of course the realization of markups on 991.2's making it a $200k car, plus the gift 10 year 120k engine warranty from Porsche. In those same 6 months the value of the i8 has gone down significantly so I'm happy have a BMW lease where I get to just turn it in next year.

Even without the buckets and cage, you still have to retrofit the rear seats, wich will put off some buyers, but it IS possible to daily a GT3, and it will ofcourse do so being the excellent car it is. I won't overheat and will dawdle in city traffic.

But to my question above. How do you speak on the phone? How annoying is it to have no backing camera in the city when parking. How much fun is it to replace the wildly expensive rims when you hit potholes. etc etc.

Then IF you really DO it anyway. The value of your GT3 rose nicely in your garage. Try looking up the value of gt3's with +30 and +50Kkm.. not so fun.

The I8 DID drop wildly. But the thread concerns a fellow forummer, that ALLREADY ate that drop. The question is.. doing 50-60KKm over the next 2 years as a daily in that now lower value i8 or the GT3. I think that 220K GT3 is going to loose atleast 70K in 2 years time with 50K extra on it. The i8 maby 5-30K depending on how hard it keeps downwarding.

I'm bored with this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I SALUTE people that run GT3's as daily drivers.. how cool is that, I would get a boner every day listening to that masterpiece fire up. But you rather shamelessly dissed my post by saying everything I wrote was wrong, then added no facts to disproove it. Try to be a bit more constructive to a fellow i8 owner seeking a bit of advice on trading his i8 vs a GT3.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by zorgzx

Even without the buckets and cage, you still have to retrofit the rear seats, wich will put off some buyers, but it IS possible to daily a GT3, and it will ofcourse do so being the excellent car it is. I won't overheat and will dawdle in city traffic.

But to my question above. How do you speak on the phone? How annoying is it to have no backing camera in the city when parking. How much fun is it to replace the wildly expensive rims when you hit potholes. etc etc.

Then IF you really DO it anyway. The value of your GT3 rose nicely in your garage. Try looking up the value of gt3's with +30 and +50Kkm.. not so fun.

The I8 DID drop wildly. But the thread concerns a fellow forummer, that ALLREADY ate that drop. The question is.. doing 50-60KKm over the next 2 years as a daily in that now lower value i8 or the GT3. I think that 220K GT3 is going to loose atleast 70K in 2 years time with 50K extra on it. The i8 maby 5-30K depending on how hard it keeps downwarding.

I'm bored with this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I SALUTE people that run GT3's as daily drivers.. how cool is that, I would get a boner every day listening to that masterpiece fire up. But you rather shamelessly dissed my post by saying everything I wrote was wrong, then added no facts to disproove it. Try to be a bit more constructive to a fellow i8 owner seeking a bit of advice on trading his i8 vs a GT3.

There are no "facts" in this discussion. It's subjectivity on the GT3 vs i8 as a daily and on future value. Different perspectives from different countries then. OP actually lives near me.

[Maxxsirrah]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Value aside, and assuming the GT3 is spec'd without the carbon bucket seats and with front axle lift, the GT3 would be a better daily in my opinion vs the i8.

But because the low depreciation curve on low mileage GT3's, people with GT3's generally opt to daily other cars. My 991.1 has risen in value nicely over the past 6 months as it has sat in my garage waiting for the hot California summer to cool down to get back out to the track. Why? There is a floor on the price thanks to 997 GT3's still trading hands over US $100k and of course the realization of markups on 991.2's making it a $200k car, plus the gift 10 year 120k engine warranty from Porsche. In those same 6 months the value of the i8 has gone down significantly so I'm happy have a BMW lease where I get to just turn it in next year.

Some interesting supposition on pricing there, and whilst purely speculation I would fully expect the 997 GT3's ultimately to be trading at a higher price than a 991 GT3. Just as the 993's are the last of the aircooled generation, the 997 is the last of the properly mechanical, tactile, generation. 991's might be faster, but then so were 996's compared to 993's. I do wish I'd bought that 997 GT3 RS when I was first looking....

As for the i8, its a bit of a one off, so who knows where long term values will be. For me its such a cheap car to own and run, that even with its current poor residuals it makes for a compelling ownership prospect, especially if you keep it for a longer term. I suspect once we get past the end of the higher volume of initial lease cars ending there leases ( sometime next year), that prices will stabilise as the S&D equation starts to favour the seller rather than the buyer.

[FrequentFlyer]

Originally Posted by Maxxsirrah

I suspect once we get past the end of the higher volume of initial lease cars ending there leases ( sometime next year), that prices will stabilise as the S&D equation starts to favour the seller rather than the buyer.

If you are low mileage as a second or third car with warranty then I suspect you are right. If you look at the UK then new registrations fell off a cliff early in 2016 (source: DVLA figures via www.howmanyleft.co.uk) so by mid-19 most of these will be off lease and the market will stabilise. The icing on the residual cake will be BMW UK reducing the number of unsold new cars dumped via pre-reg at 30-40k off new list!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Maxxsirrah

Some interesting supposition on pricing there, and whilst purely speculation I would fully expect the 997 GT3's ultimately to be trading at a higher price than a 991 GT3. Just as the 993's are the last of the aircooled generation, the 997 is the last of the properly mechanical, tactile, generation. 991's might be faster, but then so were 996's compared to 993's. I do wish I'd bought that 997 GT3 RS when I was first looking....

As for the i8, its a bit of a one off, so who knows where long term values will be. For me its such a cheap car to own and run, that even with its current poor residuals it makes for a compelling ownership prospect, especially if you keep it for a longer term. I suspect once we get past the end of the higher volume of initial lease cars ending there leases ( sometime next year), that prices will stabilise as the S&D equation starts to favour the seller rather than the buyer.

Good points. The base 997.2 GT3 values are still strong and are definitely providing the support for 991.1's. The 991's are still valued at a premium to the 997's except when considering the lower volume specialty 997's like the 997.2 GT3RS 4.0 which is now trading at USD $500,000.

There is no chance that a 997 GT3 can be a daily tho unless you are a madman or complete die hard. But a monumental leap in chassis, suspension and steering technology had made the 991 GT3 even more comfortable than the Turbo models. It is almost unbelievable that a 991 GT3 can be so comfortable and relatively quiet particularly in non sport auto mode.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Value aside, and assuming the GT3 is spec'd without the carbon bucket seats and with front axle lift, the GT3 would be a better daily in my opinion vs the i8.

But because the low depreciation curve on low mileage GT3's, people with GT3's generally opt to daily other cars. My 991.1 has risen in value nicely over the past 6 months as it has sat in my garage waiting for the hot California summer to cool down to get back out to the track. Why? There is a floor on the price thanks to 997 GT3's still trading hands over US $100k and of course the realization of markups on 991.2's making it a $200k car, plus the gift 10 year 120k engine warranty from Porsche. In those same 6 months the value of the i8 has gone down significantly so I'm happy have a BMW lease where I get to just turn it in next year.

You might want to look again.

991.1 GT3's are depreciating quickly. including RS's there are about 150 on the market right now. Entire market has shifted down $15 to $25K this year. .1s under 10K miles can be found in $120's. .1 RS's under MSRP with less than 10K miles, some in the $170's, below new .2 GT3's in some cases.

997 Mezger engine was best of era. Most would say 991.1 GT3 is 4th place out of 4 comparing .1 GT3/RS, .2 GT3/RS.

Engine fires had huge impact on market. if looking at long term appreciation, after 10 years, that issue could affect investment values negatively.

Production numbers for 991 GT3s across all years may be 3 or 4x more than the I8. GT3 numbers this era were similar to turbo. High number Turbos depreciate. As has been mentioned, I8 is between 8 series and Z8, so who knows?

Production to date numbers Wikipedia:
.1 GT3's 12000 + .2?
I8 7300

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

You might want to look again.

991.1 GT3's are depreciating quickly. including RS's there are about 150 on the market right now. Entire market has shifted down $15 to $25K this year. .1s under 10K miles can be found in $120's. .1 RS's under MSRP with less than 10K miles, some in the $170's, below new .2 GT3's in some cases.

997 Mezger engine was best of era. Most would say 991.1 GT3 is 4th place out of 4 comparing .1 GT3/RS, .2 GT3/RS.

Engine fires had huge impact on market. if looking at long term appreciation, after 10 years, that issue could affect investment values negatively.

Production numbers for 991 GT3s across all years may be 3 or 4x more than the I8. GT3 numbers this era were similar to turbo. High number Turbos depreciate. As has been mentioned, I8 is between 8 series and Z8, so who knows?

Production to date numbers Wikipedia:
.1 GT3's 12000 + .2?
I8 7300

Nothing was mentioned of the RS by the OP. Just GT3.

991.1 GT3s have been going up in value. Just check Rennlist. Why? The engine fire as you mention only affected the 14's from the finger follower issue but who cares now even the 15's and 16's that never had this issue get the 10 year 120,000 mile engine warranty. For a race car motor this is insane but who cares we will take it. This bonus is surely not hurting values. More 991.1 RSs were made than base GT3's...and now that the .2 GT3 is quicker/faster than the .1 RS could be why the RS is being pushed down. 997 GT3's might be going up too and maybe what is propping up 991.1's a bit. Might never know exactly why.

Speculation aside lets look at facts so far as we know them. My 2015 $148k msrp 991.1 GT3 with 10,000 miles is hanging in nicely in the $130k-$135 range with it's build spec and my 2016 $148k msrp i8 with 15,000 miles is around $70-$75k. The difference shows the demand for the 991.1 GT3 is still very strong and i8 is extremely weak. Where the values go from here is a guess...nothing more.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Nothing was mentioned of the RS by the OP. Just GT3.

991.1 GT3s have been going up in value. Just check Rennlist. Why? The engine fire as you mention only affected the 14's from the finger follower issue but who cares now even the 15's and 16's that never had this issue get the 10 year 120,000 mile engine warranty. For a race car motor this is insane but who cares we will take it. This bonus is surely not hurting values. More 991.1 RSs were made than base GT3's...and now that the .2 GT3 is quicker/faster than the .1 RS could be why the RS is being pushed down. 997 GT3's might be going up too and maybe what is propping up 991.1's a bit. Might never know exactly why.

Speculation aside lets look at facts so far as we know them. My 2015 $148k msrp 991.1 GT3 with 10,000 miles is hanging in nicely in the $130k-$135 range with it's build spec and my 2016 $148k msrp i8 with 15,000 miles is around $70-$75k. The difference shows the demand for the 991.1 GT3 is still very strong and i8 is extremely weak. Where the values go from here is a guess...nothing more.

Like the asking prices on these?

https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...-for-sale.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...300-miles.html
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...earchRadius=25

Google .1 GT3 and engine fire, and there is the incurable defect. it's there with long winded explanations, enough to scare some in the market away.

At race rpm, the .2 GT3 is not faster than the .1 RS, but in the same way you (and the market as well), think the engine fires don't affect sales, perception is the .2 is faster because of ring times under different circumstances. Power AT SPEED is close to identical, RS has more tire and go fast bits. http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/juctgf11jikk "no clear winner".

The I8 is more volatile, perhaps like the Z8. My point was that the numbers don't bode well for the GT3 on the upside, but could for I8. I'm not suggesting either of these cars are good for investments, but one looks like buy lower, maybe sell higher than the other. And I think that's what zorgzx was trying to say as well... Kan du forstade?

if you want to see what the .1 GT3 is really selling for, perhaps check Manheim with someone who has access and report back. It doesn't look like it's moving in an inverse relationship to the rest of the market... even the .2 is coming down now. https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post15175270

[wanesso]

Originally Posted by zorgzx

Even without the buckets and cage, you still have to retrofit the rear seats, wich will put off some buyers, but it IS possible to daily a GT3, and it will ofcourse do so being the excellent car it is. I won't overheat and will dawdle in city traffic.

But to my question above. How do you speak on the phone? How annoying is it to have no backing camera in the city when parking. How much fun is it to replace the wildly expensive rims when you hit potholes. etc etc.

Then IF you really DO it anyway. The value of your GT3 rose nicely in your garage. Try looking up the value of gt3's with +30 and +50Kkm.. not so fun.

The I8 DID drop wildly. But the thread concerns a fellow forummer, that ALLREADY ate that drop. The question is.. doing 50-60KKm over the next 2 years as a daily in that now lower value i8 or the GT3. I think that 220K GT3 is going to loose atleast 70K in 2 years time with 50K extra on it. The i8 maby 5-30K depending on how hard it keeps downwarding.

I'm bored with this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I SALUTE people that run GT3's as daily drivers.. how cool is that, I would get a boner every day listening to that masterpiece fire up. But you rather shamelessly dissed my post by saying everything I wrote was wrong, then added no facts to disproove it. Try to be a bit more constructive to a fellow i8 owner seeking a bit of advice on trading his i8 vs a GT3.

Originally Posted by zorgzx

Even without the buckets and cage, you still have to retrofit the rear seats, wich will put off some buyers, but it IS possible to daily a GT3, and it will ofcourse do so being the excellent car it is. I won't overheat and will dawdle in city traffic.

But to my question above. How do you speak on the phone? How annoying is it to have no backing camera in the city when parking. How much fun is it to replace the wildly expensive rims when you hit potholes. etc etc.

Then IF you really DO it anyway. The value of your GT3 rose nicely in your garage. Try looking up the value of gt3's with +30 and +50Kkm.. not so fun.

The I8 DID drop wildly. But the thread concerns a fellow forummer, that ALLREADY ate that drop. The question is.. doing 50-60KKm over the next 2 years as a daily in that now lower value i8 or the GT3. I think that 220K GT3 is going to loose atleast 70K in 2 years time with 50K extra on it. The i8 maby 5-30K depending on how hard it keeps downwarding.

I'm bored with this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I SALUTE people that run GT3's as daily drivers.. how cool is that, I would get a boner every day listening to that masterpiece fire up. But you rather shamelessly dissed my post by saying everything I wrote was wrong, then added no facts to disproove it. Try to be a bit more constructive to a fellow i8 owner seeking a bit of advice on trading his i8 vs a GT3.

No one is going to convince anyone to change their speculative opinions on future value of either car BUT to address one question you had about the phone—the 991.2 GT3 Bluetooth system is great and I have no problem speaking or hearing anyone speak. I have a manual, DD when weather permits, and love it.

And I have rim/ tire insurance and backup camera....

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by wanesso

No one is going to convince anyone to change their speculative opinions on future value of either car BUT to address one question you had about the phone—the 991.2 GT3 Bluetooth system is great and I have no problem speaking or hearing anyone speak. I have a manual, DD when weather permits, and love it.

Nice. Yeah i just dropped off my son at school in the GT3 and had a conversation with the wife on BT as we were driving. Other than the mild transaxle growl as it goes through the gears in auto mode the car is quiet. Driveways were steep and my coils are set to full low but axle lift works fantastic no issues. I then drove my e92 M3 to work and it was debatable which was quieter or more comfortable. My M3 is on stock suspension stock muffler too. 991 GT3 is an easy daily.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Like the asking prices on these?

https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...-for-sale.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...300-miles.html
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...earchRadius=25

Google .1 GT3 and engine fire, and there is the incurable defect. it's there with long winded explanations, enough to scare some in the market away.

At race rpm, the .2 GT3 is not faster than the .1 RS, but in the same way you (and the market as well), think the engine fires don't affect sales, perception is the .2 is faster because of ring times under different circumstances. Power AT SPEED is close to identical, RS has more tire and go fast bits. http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/juctgf11jikk "no clear winner".

The I8 is more volatile, perhaps like the Z8. My point was that the numbers don't bode well for the GT3 on the upside, but could for I8. I'm not suggesting either of these cars are good for investments, but one looks like buy lower, maybe sell higher than the other. And I think that's what zorgzx was trying to say as well... Kan du forstade?

if you want to see what the .1 GT3 is really selling for, perhaps check Manheim with someone who has access and report back. It doesn't look like it's moving in an inverse relationship to the rest of the market... even the .2 is coming down now. https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post15175270

Both 2014's and one with over 25,000 miles. The spec on both was also undesirable by the enthusiast crowd. They need to be stock also. Those mods hurt resale. These are bottom barrel GT3's you found.

2015's and 2016's with lower mileage and spec'd by enthusiasts have a much higher transaction point.

[wanesso]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Nice. Yeah i just dropped off my son at school in the GT3 and had a conversation with the wife on BT as we were driving. Other than the mild transaxle growl as it goes through the gears in auto mode the car is quiet. Driveways were steep and my coils are set to full low but axle lift works fantastic no issues. I then drove my e92 M3 to work and it was debatable which was quieter or more comfortable. My M3 is on stock suspension stock muffler too. 991 GT3 is an easy daily.

I just drove my e92 M3 for the first time in a while—- dayum, it's still my favorite— comfort, power, sound. Should have stopped with that car but now have to sell to reduce the fleet

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by wanesso

I just drove my e92 M3 for the first time in a while—- dayum, it's still my favorite— comfort, power, sound. Should have stopped with that car but now have to sell to reduce the fleet

You have good taste in cars my friend. I got rid of my Wrangler which was my second SUV and replaced it with my second e92 M3 as my "utility vehicle". So far the M3 actually has fit just as much stuff as the Jeep and even more in some occasions. Oh and it's a beast around the track with a BBK, alignment and sticky tyres.

The i8 is a cool car nothing I'm saying here is bashing it. But as the OP indicated about his trade in issues, just shows that the ACTUAL resale/ depreciation has been abysmal. $150k msrp to $75k market value for 7,500 miles per year in two years is almost unbelievable.

[JasH]

i8 depreciation has been in line with other expensive BMWs and big luxury cars. In other words, it's been poor. Especially in UK.

Less so in Eurozone. I have no idea about USA, but it sounds like it's poor there too.

[Fifer]

It’s still not as bad as the drop in value of an X5M.

[wanesso]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

You have good taste in cars my friend. I got rid of my Wrangler which was my second SUV and replaced it with my second e92 M3 as my "utility vehicle". So far the M3 actually has fit just as much stuff as the Jeep and even more in some occasions. Oh and it's a beast around the track with a BBK, alignment and sticky tyres.

The i8 is a cool car nothing I'm saying here is bashing it. But as the OP indicated about his trade in issues, just shows that the ACTUAL resale/ depreciation has been abysmal. $150k msrp to $75k market value for 7,500 miles per year in two years is almost unbelievable.

Yep. Even with depreciation, decided to buy out residual at 74k... really appreciate the i8 — everything about it—regardless of depreciation so it's a purchase made with the heart not the head. I see 5-6 Teslas a day around here and no i8's and I kinda like that....