[vreihen16]

Back to the thread's topic, what is "enhanced bail" in California? I saw it mentioned in a news article a few days ago, and was curious about what it is and what the metrics are for applying it.

Here in NY State, the no-cash-bail "reform" seems to be doing the exact opposite, cutting criminals loose with pinky-swears that they will appear for their court date...not to mention catch-and-release where the police are arresting the same person 3-4 times per day for repeating the same crime because they can't hold them for bail.....

[Littlebear]

This article sites a study of NYPD stats by the NY Post, a conservative newspaper (Murdoch owned):

"Similar reforms in adjacent New Jersey had shown no such problems, but once New York state implemented reforms at the start of 2020, police trumpeted the case of any person who was released without having to pay bail and subsequently broke the law and as proof that bail reform puts people in danger."

https://reason.com/2020/07/09/new-yo...f-bail-reform/

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Back to the thread's topic, what is "enhanced bail" in California? I saw it mentioned in a news article a few days ago, and was curious about what it is and what the metrics are for applying it.

Here in NY State, the no-cash-bail "reform" seems to be doing the exact opposite, cutting criminals loose with pinky-swears that they will appear for their court date...not to mention catch-and-release where the police are arresting the same person 3-4 times per day for repeating the same crime because they can't hold them for bail.....

So….


….the bail issue is real. You make a good point about the catch & release nature of arrests right now. It's to the point now where many types of crimes are cited out in the field. It's not even worth booking them at the station jail because they'll be released before I even complete the report. No-bail warrants require us to hard book the suspect, but they still get released quickly most of the time.

Originally Posted by Littlebear

This article sites a study of NYPD stats by the NY Post, a conservative newspaper (Murdoch owned):

"Similar reforms in adjacent New Jersey had shown no such problems, but once New York state implemented reforms at the start of 2020, police trumpeted the case of any person who was released without having to pay bail and subsequently broke the law and as proof that bail reform puts people in danger."

https://reason.com/2020/07/09/new-yo...f-bail-reform/

You need to get out a little and stop relying solely on what you can Google.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Sort of like cutting off your nose despite your face.

In some ways, yes, I agree with you, but it's an extreme response to an extreme pressure. There is causation, and it's coming from the administration.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

So….
You need to get out a little and stop relying solely on what you can Google.

I'll stand by stats from the NYPD and the NY Post rather than hearsay, thanks!
The article also sites findings from New Jersey and other states, not to mention how the police union is distorting the facts.
The positives of bail reform are many.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

In some ways, yes, I agree with you, but it's an extreme response to an extreme pressure. There is causation, and it's coming from the administration.

The extreme pressure is what?

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I'll stand by stats from the NYPD and the NY Post rather than hearsay, thanks!
The article also sites findings from New Jersey and other states, not to mention how the police union is distorting the facts.
The positives of bail reform are many.

I gotta tell you Murf, I feel like we live on different planets. All no-cash bail reform does is encourage bad behavior. There is no longer any consequence for bad behavior. It's a joke and it is why crime is getting out of hand again. I feel like I've been transported back to the NYC of the 70s and early 80s. Maybe, just maybe, if a dirt bag feared he would be arrested and have to stay in the tombs until he saw a judge and risk not making bail it would deter the bad act.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I gotta tell you Murf, I feel like we live on different planets. All no-cash bail reform does is encourage bad behavior. There is no longer any consequence for bad behavior. It's a joke and it is why crime is getting out of hand again. I feel like I've been transported back to the NYC of the 70s and early 80s. Maybe, just maybe, if a dirt bag feared he would be arrested and have to stay in the tombs until he saw a judge and risk not making bail it would deter the bad act.

He doesn't get it. There's no explaining it to him because everything he cites lacks any nuance or perspective as it applies to how these things are performed from a practical sense. He's not doing the job, dealing with the intricacies, etc…..so he just doesn't get it. Add to that his unwillingness to listen and his immovable position, and we have a bit of an impasse.

[4Hockey4]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Honestly, no. Licensure, training and a background check are necessities IMHO, but I'm all for legalized carry by non-criminals. I would like to see carry available to anybody without a record with mandated requirements to shoot/qualify bi-annually; quarterly even.

If someone wants to carry, they should be required to have concealed carry insurance (…which is the cost of one large pizza a month) and they should be required to maintain a reasonable level of skill/accuracy at 7-10 yards. That is not too much to ask for someone who is carrying a firearm.

The reality is when these laws don't do a darn thing for gun violence, the slippery slope is real, not a theory. The modern left is for removing the 2A, don't confuse reasonable people and reasonable training for what the end game is for the extreme.

What are your thoughts Sedan_Clan on Police reform bill and the qualified immunity hang up ?

[Littlebear]

And as usual, character assassination, and no factual back-up.
As the article states, gun violence is up across the country, and most places haven't had bail reform.
The actual numbers are pointing towards other causes for the increased gun violence over the last year. Stress, less employment, more street time, large increases in gun sales, all look to be much larger factors. Bail reform contributing in single digits for NYC.
Gun violence is the only major crime which is up in NYC. :

"Overall, New York City actually saw a 5.5 percent decline in major crimes when compared to the first six months of 2019."

It must be hard going through life only trusting what your own eyes see (Google is your friend).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 4Hockey4

The reality is when these laws don't do a darn thing for gun violence, the slippery slope is real, not a theory. The modern left is for removing the 2A, don't confuse reasonable people and reasonable training for what the end game is for the extreme.

What are your thoughts Sedan_Clan on Police reform bill and the qualified immunity hang up ?

If QI goes, you'll see mass retirements, a mass exodus out of patrol (…for deputies), even less proactive policing and less people willing to come do the job.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

And as usual, character assassination, and no factual back-up.
As the article states, gun violence is up across the country, and most places haven't had bail reform.
The actual numbers are pointing towards other causes for the increased gun violence over the last year. Stress, less employment, more street time, large increases in gun sales, all look to be much larger factors. Bail reform contributing in single digits for NYC.
Gun violence is the only major crime which is up in NYC. :

"Overall, New York City actually saw a 5.5 percent decline in major crimes when compared to the first six months of 2019."

It must be hard going through life only trusting what your own eyes see (Google is your friend).

It must be hard going through life only trusting what some fudged statistics on a search engine tell you. (Life/Professional experience is your friend)

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If QI goes, you'll see mass retirements, a mass exodus out of patrol (…for deputies), even less proactive policing and less people willing to come do the job.

I see:

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It must be hard going through life only trusting what some fudged statistics on a search engine tell you. (Life/Professional experience is your friend)

Which stats were fudged?
Certainly not the ones you posted; oh yea, you didn't post any stats....

I trust the peer review system. I am one in billions. Why be so limited?

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Which stats were fudged?
Certainly not the ones you posted; oh yea, you didn't post any stats....

I trust the peer review system. I am one in billions. Why be so limited?

There are a number of ways to look at his. In Toronto for example stats indicate that many types of crime are down, when the reality is that many minor crimes go unreported now because the view by members of the public is that it's a useless exercise. When your home is broken into and you are put onto a wait list for the police to attend that may be 24-48 hours long people stop reporting crime.

Ask yourself this, do you feel safer walking the streets of NYC now than a few years ago, maybe cmyx6go could offer her view regarding the feeling of safety on the streets. Not one of your peer reviewed stats but the reality in many places is that the stats are not reflective of what folks are actually seeing and feeling in their communities.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Murf993

There are a number of ways to look at his. In Toronto for example stats indicate that many types of crime are down, when the reality is that many minor crimes go unreported now because the view by members of the public is that it's a useless exercise. When your home is broken into and you are put onto a wait list for the police to attend that may be 24-48 hours long people stop reporting crime.

Ask yourself this, do you feel safer walking the streets of NYC now than a few years ago, maybe cmyx6go could offer her view regarding the feeling of safety on the streets. Not one of your peer reviewed stats but the reality in many places is that the stats are not reflective of what folks are actually seeing and feeling in their communities.

It's terrible. The subways are a nightmare. The streets are a nightmare. People getting slashed, stabbed, pushed onto train tracks. People minding their own business getting beaten or cold cocked just for walking on the street. It's on the news every single day. The shootings are out of control, but I'll keep that out because this will then go back to the gun control.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Murf993

....
Ask yourself this, do you feel safer walking the streets of NYC now than a few years ago, maybe cmyx6go could offer her view regarding the feeling of safety on the streets....

Honestly, I have never felt safer. Look at the recent pics of my nabe. Do we look scared?
Now, if I went a few miles to Bed-Sty, I hear things are different. But I didn't see that, only read about it!

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Honestly, I have never felt safer. Look at the recent pics of my nabe. Do we look scared?
Now, if I went a few miles to Bed-Sty, I hear things are different. But I didn't see that, only read about it!

So if you didn't see it first hand, but it was on the news it isn't real? I flip through all the local networks to catch the news. They may show different stats to reflect their narrative but they all report the incidents.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

So if you didn't see it first hand, but it was on the news it isn't real?....

I'm poking Clan for only believing what he sees with his own eyes, and discounting the experiences & studies of others.

No offense to Clan, but after watching Peter Lynch (NYPD Union head) for many years, it's hard to take much of what cops say without a reality check.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

So the comment about the audit was just an attempt to make me feel - dumb? A diversion? To categorize me and marginalize me? I have no idea what the audit will return and I don't dwell on it. Don't lose sleep over having it done either. Any time either major party wants an audit it should be done at their expense.

As to resident expert - who? It doesn't matter if you or someone else doesn't like untrained people with guns. I don't like the idea of incompetent people carrying a gun. I cringe watching many people on the range but at least they are there to hopefully learn. But you still miss the point.

It doesn't matter if we are uncomfortable with it. it is a right. You are disagreeing with a fundamental right. If you can disagree with that right what next? An IQ test to get your card to vote?

Is that woman being stalked by her ex that just bought a revolver and hasn't had time to learn much about it supposed to wait until some formal training session the state approves? Is that your position?

You say you get it but you show you don't. Rights are not subject to training and govt approvals. All Texas is doing is re-establishing that the 2nd A meant exactly what it said.

Or maybe you do get it and in your world rights are government privileges to be handed out on a whim.

Wow, why so defensive? We're 2 grown adults having a conversation. I was not attacking you nor trying to make you feel dumb (your words). Not a big deal that you weren't familiar with what I had referenced. I had just assumed you were since you brought up the subject of voting and that situation has gotten a lot of attention and in the State in which you live in.

Again, you and I obviously have different views on carrying firearms, no more, no less. I'm not going to debate over the Constitution as it's played out. People will ultimately agree to disagree.

Personally I liked our conversation about cats in a different thread.

[4Hockey4]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I'm poking Clan for only believing what he sees with his own eyes, and discounting the experiences & studies of others.

https://quillette.com/2021/05/24/liv...arent-special/

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 4Hockey4

https://quillette.com/2021/05/24/liv...arent-special/

#FreeThoughtLives

I don't know how this applies here. I work directly with the issue being discussed. I see crime increasing because……<drum roll>….I police crime. When some statistic is claiming it's decreasing, but calls for service/arrests/etc. increase, what does that tell you? One is spin. One is not. Granted, I do not live in NY, so I can't speak on that state personally. Others here can however. We are seeing exponential increases here in California, and it has everything to do with the bail structure, jail/prison reform and a D.A. that will not prosecute.