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      12-19-2018, 09:53 PM   #45
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It simply isn't possible to build.
...................
Oh yeah? Prove me wrong.
But in reality...

If we can't address this hit button without taking the same approach as 5th Century China, we should just sell all the land border states to them and find a new project.
I vote we SEVERELY penalize any and all US companies that hire and "use" any and all illegal immigrants irregardless of their country of origin.

That should clean shit up real fast!
Not an effective path to obtain border security.
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      12-19-2018, 10:02 PM   #46
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It simply isn't possible to build.
...................
Oh yeah? Prove me wrong.
But in reality...

If we can't address this hit button without taking the same approach as 5th Century China, we should just sell all the land border states to them and find a new project.
I vote we SEVERELY penalize any and all US companies that hire and "use" any and all illegal immigrants irregardless of their country of origin.

That should clean shit up real fast!
Not an effective path to obtain border security.
But an effective path to stem the flow of illegal immigration.

I view these issues as one and the same. Stop the thousands (millions?) from having a reason to try and cross illegally and we will have a much easier time watching/patrolling our southern border.
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      12-19-2018, 10:49 PM   #47
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He also emphatically stated that Mexico would pay for it, yet here we are.

Illegal border crossings are at a relative low point, and 2/3 of illegal immigration occurs via visa overstays....NOT people walking across our southern border. Those of us who think a 2200 mile long border is a waste of money are of that opinion because there are far better, far cheaper methods of lowering illegal immigration versus some boondoggle.
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Try and stay focused on topic. The wall is addressing unauthorized entry to the country and border enforcement. 💡
Yeah, dude. Stay on topic for ffs. Building a wall AND having Mexico was definitely never one of the centerpieces of Trumpís campaign promises.

Now that a very important aspect of one of Trumpís big promises seems to be botched, we should disassociate it so he doesnít look bad.
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      12-19-2018, 10:51 PM   #48
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You think we can convince Trump to put in some drive through windows in the wall?
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      12-19-2018, 10:53 PM   #49
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You think we can convince Trump to put in some drive through windows in the wall?
Yo, thatíd be dope af!
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      12-19-2018, 11:26 PM   #50
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Also- I always find it amusing when people argue that a physical barrier is ineffective, and no physical barrier at all is actually more effective.. at being a barrier to unauthorized entry. ����*♂️
Honestly, that's an utterly stupid and indefensible position. ... but some people honestly believe the world is flat; so I don't doubt somebody's arguing that point of view somewhere.

I think the more rational version of that position is a physical barrier is utterly bloody useless unless legislation is passed with more teeth that allow people who get past the psychical barrier to be deported and punished.

And the extreme version of the argument is that if the likelihood that you'll get caught crossing the border, and the harshness of the punishment is great enough, you don't need a physical border at all.

I don't think you need a wall. I think you need a fence. And you don't really need many people policing that fence, since you can pretty cheaply put a camera on every fence post and have one person per thousand km of fence-line monitoring the situation. (obviously more on the ground or controlling surveillance drones to track people who do cross) ... now - I'm not suggesting you should - but if the repercussions of tampering with a camera or crossing the border was a drone strike ... well, I don't think you'd need to budget for wire.

What I am saying is there should be money for policing in every populated area north of that fence, and legislation that allows for random identity checks, and any illegal immigrants found in the USA will be fingerprinted, dna sampled, then driven back to the fence (without any due process), pushed off a utility truck tray onto the other side of the fence - and have all legal right to ever step into the USA legally in future irrevocably revoked; with a second offence statutory punishment of life in prison. ...Well, that'll do more for border security and illegal immigration than any wall.

If that policy seems so harsh its indefensible... well, google Australia's current 'boat people' policy.

EDIT: I also think ///M4ster Yoda's point has a lot of merit. Illegal immigrants often come because there are better opportunities for employment, and punishing any employers is a very effective way of closing down that opportunity. Even if you only introduce harsh fines and use those fines to pay for further policing, it's a very effective policy.

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      12-19-2018, 11:42 PM   #51
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... irregardless ...
I'm sorry. I'm a grammar Nazi. I can't help it.

irregardless is a nonstandard synonym for regardless, which means “without concern as to advice, warning, or hardship,” or “heedless.” Its nonstandard status is due to the double negative construction of the prefix ir- with the suffix -less. The blend creates a word with a meaning not predictable from the meanings of its constituent morphemes.
Since the prefix ir- means "not" (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without", the word contains a double negative. The word irregardless could therefore be expected to have the meaning "in regard to", instead of being a synonym of regardless.

... That said, the argument you were making was 100% on point, and I couldn't agree with you more
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      12-20-2018, 06:17 AM   #52
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For security, any barrier is better than no barrier. While it is never impossible to circumvent, it reduces alternatives to a predictable path, it’s how security measures work.

All the other options of deterrents don’t have to be without any barrier, they can be inclusive, as they are at basic toll stations.

The Americans built the Panana canal, they can build a wall.

The only deterrent is cost. If it was inexpensive, it would be up already.
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      12-20-2018, 07:17 AM   #53
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Trumps biggest campaign promise and it's an complete flop.
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      12-20-2018, 08:14 AM   #54
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You think we can convince Trump to put in some drive through windows in the wall?
For drugs, or food?
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      12-20-2018, 08:38 AM   #55
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Drones fly on radio frequency control. The wall will contain blocking devices that will make those drones crash and burn ...adios amigos.
I seriously doubt that, not to mention a controller could be hardwired to the drone, thus circumventing any need for a radio.

In other words, BS.
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      12-20-2018, 09:22 AM   #56
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Just about 4 million in 3 days
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      12-20-2018, 09:39 AM   #57
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Just about 4 million in 3 days
Wow, only 10 years to Christmas!
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      12-20-2018, 09:59 AM   #58
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I seriously doubt that, not to mention a controller could be hardwired to the drone, thus circumventing any need for a radio.

In other words, BS.
Link please?
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      12-20-2018, 10:11 AM   #59
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For drugs, or food?

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      12-20-2018, 10:19 AM   #60
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$4,346,469 of $1.0B goal Raised by 70,832 people in 3 days.

I am speechless at the level of stupidity and gullibility.
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      12-20-2018, 10:34 AM   #61
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The wall you all desire is a symbolic one.

Reduction in crime rates, drug-use, illegal immigration - is the 'border wall'

Implement it using today's technology, not last centuries...
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      12-20-2018, 10:40 AM   #62
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$4,346,469 of $1.0B goal Raised by 70,832 people in 3 days.

I am speechless at the level of stupidity and gullibility.
If you are so speechless then why are you typing here....
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      12-20-2018, 11:18 AM   #63
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I donít want to be too argumentative on this, but you just repeated what I replied to without regard to my reply, so Iíll say again,
...Some of the designs Iíve seen look like they are virtually maintenance free, but even if some maintenance is required I donít get not building something thatís important just because it requires work to keep it intact. Isnít that what we already do to maintain our freedom? And Iím not equating the wall with keeping our freedom, but am equating the concept. Your argument that it wonít work because theyíll get in anyway is one of those donít do it if it isnít a hundred percent perfect arguments in my opinion. Walls work, ask the Israelis if you donít believe me.
My apologies for not replying in a more direct manner. I was hurriedly replying last evening in between other things I had going on. I'll agree with what you stated. Just because it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean that some effort shouldn't be made, I just feel that cost versus end result isn't there. You do make a valid point that effort made in maintaining anything whether it be a wall, a policy, etc. ,must be upheld in order for the groundwork to remain effective in whatever the task at hand is.
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      12-20-2018, 11:22 AM   #64
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If the people want a wall so much and have the funding then go ahead and built it. Why is the government needed...form a company called USWALL Inc, sell shares in the company, buy the land, hire a construction company, and build it.

God knows Trump can't be trusted with money...do it yourself.. for the people, by the people.
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      12-20-2018, 11:26 AM   #65
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Did a little research on a few things this morning. My position requires factual documentation in order for any project to commence so this is what I do.

The Mexican economy has a growth goal rate twice that of the US which is roughly 3.7%. The Mexican middle class is growing exponentially while the US middle class is a dying breed. Mexico’s economy is doing quite well. If this is the case then why do we have an immigration problem?
Most undocumented immigrants are not here because they illegally crossed the border. These are individuals that have overstayed their visas. Individuals who overstayed their visas outnumbered those who illegally crossed the border by 600,000 since 2007. It is also estimated that between 27 to 47 % of undocumented immigrants came to this country by planes. This information comes from the Center for Migration Studies. Illegal border crossings have plummeted from an estimated 1.8 million in 2000 to roughly 200,000 in 2015.

Trump demanded 5 billion dollars to be allocated for the construction of this wall. It has been estimated to cost more than 33 billion to build and 150 billion to maintain. Trumps wall, according to engineer’s estimates, will require more than 1.5 times the amount of concrete used in construction of the Hoover dam.

The US Mexico border is already one of the most heavily guarded borders between two sovereign countries in history.

Entities other than the federal government-states, Indian tribes and private parties control over two-thirds of the borderland property. The Bush administration offered no compensation for handing over their property and threatened to sue them if they did not hand it over. The government will use eminent domain in order to seize this property, but these lawsuits will be very expensive and impose some very costly delays in construction, thus adding to the initial cost. Native American tribes also have the ability to cease construction of border barriers and have pledged to fight efforts to build a wall. In 2007 when the Tohono O’odham Nation allowed vehicle barriers to be constructed, this resulted in desecration of Indian burial grounds and digging up of human remains. Trump would need a stand-alone bill from Congress to condemn their land.

Water rights also pose problematic in construction of a border wall. A 1970 treaty requires that the floodplain of the Rio Grande remain open to both sides of the border.

In 2006 Congress allocated 1.2 billion for a 700 mile border fence that the final cost ended up being 3.5 billion. In 2009 it was estimated that it would need to spend 325 million annually for 20 years to maintain just these 700 miles of fence. By 2015, Congress had already spent 7 billion on this project alone. This equates to 11.3 million per mile per decade.

On to economics, Mexico will not be paying for the wall. If the US imposes a tax on imports to Mexico then who do you think will be paying for the wall? The US citizens. Couple the wall with renegotiating NAFTA or launching a trade war with Mexico and the potential of a borderland recession and massive unemployment will only increase. This will start a likely surge in undocumented immigration all over again but in a much more dangerous way as the immigrants will find other ways around the wall.

The long and short of this is that this massive expenditure that will have little impact on immigration is nothing more than seed planting in the minds of the American voters. It would be the single-most expensive construction projects in American history costing as much as 20 Hoover dams.

Good fences DO NOT make good neighbors. Good people make good neighbors. It wasn’t true when Frost wrote it and it isn’t true now. When Frost wrote Mending Wall it was used to analyze the nature of relationships between neighbors functioning as a metaphor indicating the human need for separation and yet the need for friendship. The narrative in this poem also draws attention to the sheer rashness of mending the wall in the first place. No wall will ever stand the test of time. I will eventually fall due to either man-kind or the elements of nature. The narrator in the Mending Wall wants to get his point across to his neighbor but the neighbor arrogantly repeats his father’s comment of “Good fences make good neighbors.” Using this quote here simply does not fit this debate as it was originated only to depict a bull-headed and narrow-minded viewpoint.

The Great Wall of China was built in order to deter against incursions and although useful it still failed. In 1644 the Manchu Qing marched through the gates of Shanhai Pass. This being said and to touch on my previous made statement concerning maintenance costs, it is estimated that maintenance on the Great Wall of China is between 1 to 5 million dollars per mile. At 13,170 miles this equates to 13 billion to 65 billion in maintenance costs.

Border security is essential to a nation’s sovereignty I agree wholeheartedly. Yes, I agree that we need to protect our borders but a concrete wall that spans over 1,900 miles, I don’t feel is the answer. Yes the number shown here are a drop in the bucket compared to what we as a nation spend. What is the answer? I don’t know. I try to stay out of politics as it only pisses me off. Heated debates, name calling and assumption of others character are made because we as humans have a difficult time with facts, opinions and emotions. I made a comment about why I don’t feel that it is possible. What I should have said is why I do not feel it is feasible based off readily available facts/references and from things I encounter on a daily basis with what I do for a living. You all may continue you’re debate, but this is all I have to say about it.
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      12-20-2018, 12:11 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
Did a little research on a few things this morning. My position requires factual documentation in order for any project to commence so this is what I do.

The Mexican economy has a growth goal rate twice that of the US which is roughly 3.7%. The Mexican middle class is growing exponentially while the US middle class is a dying breed. Mexico’s economy is doing quite well. If this is the case then why do we have an immigration problem?
Most undocumented immigrants are not here because they illegally crossed the border. These are individuals that have overstayed their visas. Individuals who overstayed their visas outnumbered those who illegally crossed the border by 600,000 since 2007. It is also estimated that between 27 to 47 % of undocumented immigrants came to this country by planes. This information comes from the Center for Migration Studies. Illegal border crossings have plummeted from an estimated 1.8 million in 2000 to roughly 200,000 in 2015.

Trump demanded 5 billion dollars to be allocated for the construction of this wall. It has been estimated to cost more than 33 billion to build and 150 billion to maintain. Trumps wall, according to engineer’s estimates, will require more than 1.5 times the amount of concrete used in construction of the Hoover dam.

The US Mexico border is already one of the most heavily guarded borders between two sovereign countries in history.

Entities other than the federal government-states, Indian tribes and private parties control over two-thirds of the borderland property. The Bush administration offered no compensation for handing over their property and threatened to sue them if they did not hand it over. The government will use eminent domain in order to seize this property, but these lawsuits will be very expensive and impose some very costly delays in construction, thus adding to the initial cost. Native American tribes also have the ability to cease construction of border barriers and have pledged to fight efforts to build a wall. In 2007 when the Tohono O’odham Nation allowed vehicle barriers to be constructed, this resulted in desecration of Indian burial grounds and digging up of human remains. Trump would need a stand-alone bill from Congress to condemn their land.

Water rights also pose problematic in construction of a border wall. A 1970 treaty requires that the floodplain of the Rio Grande remain open to both sides of the border.

In 2006 Congress allocated 1.2 billion for a 700 mile border fence that the final cost ended up being 3.5 billion. In 2009 it was estimated that it would need to spend 325 million annually for 20 years to maintain just these 700 miles of fence. By 2015, Congress had already spent 7 billion on this project alone. This equates to 11.3 million per mile per decade.

On to economics, Mexico will not be paying for the wall. If the US imposes a tax on imports to Mexico then who do you think will be paying for the wall? The US citizens. Couple the wall with renegotiating NAFTA or launching a trade war with Mexico and the potential of a borderland recession and massive unemployment will only increase. This will start a likely surge in undocumented immigration all over again but in a much more dangerous way as the immigrants will find other ways around the wall.

The long and short of this is that this massive expenditure that will have little impact on immigration is nothing more than seed planting in the minds of the American voters. It would be the single-most expensive construction projects in American history costing as much as 20 Hoover dams.

Good fences DO NOT make good neighbors. Good people make good neighbors. It wasn’t true when Frost wrote it and it isn’t true now. When Frost wrote Mending Wall it was used to analyze the nature of relationships between neighbors functioning as a metaphor indicating the human need for separation and yet the need for friendship. The narrative in this poem also draws attention to the sheer rashness of mending the wall in the first place. No wall will ever stand the test of time. I will eventually fall due to either man-kind or the elements of nature. The narrator in the Mending Wall wants to get his point across to his neighbor but the neighbor arrogantly repeats his father’s comment of “Good fences make good neighbors.” Using this quote here simply does not fit this debate as it was originated only to depict a bull-headed and narrow-minded viewpoint.

The Great Wall of China was built in order to deter against incursions and although useful it still failed. In 1644 the Manchu Qing marched through the gates of Shanhai Pass. This being said and to touch on my previous made statement concerning maintenance costs, it is estimated that maintenance on the Great Wall of China is between 1 to 5 million dollars per mile. At 13,170 miles this equates to 13 billion to 65 billion in maintenance costs.

Border security is essential to a nation’s sovereignty I agree wholeheartedly. Yes, I agree that we need to protect our borders but a concrete wall that spans over 1,900 miles, I don’t feel is the answer. Yes the number shown here are a drop in the bucket compared to what we as a nation spend. What is the answer? I don’t know. I try to stay out of politics as it only pisses me off. Heated debates, name calling and assumption of others character are made because we as humans have a difficult time with facts, opinions and emotions. I made a comment about why I don’t feel that it is possible. What I should have said is why I do not feel it is feasible based off readily available facts/references and from things I encounter on a daily basis with what I do for a living. You all may continue you’re debate, but this is all I have to say about it.

Dude, facts and reality checks like this don't compute with Trump and a Trumpster's ignorance. Again, this is all just a big-stage reality show for Trump. He knows he's not getting that "wall". "The People" can raise all the money they want. It will just be a drop in the bucket to cover the real cost of the thing.
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