[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Why? Toyota Corolla and Honda Accord always existed, Model 3 is in their class.
BTW, 57K is too much for Model 3.

$47k with tax credit (US)

Model 3 performance is not in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda accord. It’s in the same class as an M3 comp x and Audi RS5 and C63 AMG.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

$47k with tax credit (US)

Model 3 performance is not in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda accord. It’s in the same class as an M3 comp x and Audi RS5 and C63 AMG.

Thanks for pointing out what should be completely obvious

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

$47k with tax credit (US)

Model 3 performance is not in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda accord. It’s in the same class as an M3 comp x and Audi RS5 and C63 AMG.

No it's not. This is an extremely ridiculous statement. Complete misunderstanding of what a 'class' of vehicle means.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Thanks for pointing out what should be completely obvious

You mean extremely absurd. I mean leaving everything aside - like luxury, material quality, build quality, customizability, brand image, options, comfort; price alone puts them in completely different categories.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Thanks for pointing out what should be completely obvious

My pleasure. Here's some stats via car and driver with as tested prices:
Toyota Corolla Hybrid - 9s to 60, 16.9s 1/4, 100mph in 38.7s, 134hp, 3218lbs, $29k
Honda Accord Hybrid - 6.5s to 60, 15.2s 1/4, 100mph in 19.2s, 204hp, 3525lbs, $39k
i4M50 - 3.3s to 60, 11.7s 1/4, 100mph in 8.0s, 536hp, 5063lbs, $77k
Model 3 perf - 2.9s to 60, 11.5s 1/4 (est), 7.9s to 100mph (est), 510hp, 4054lbs, $47k w/tax credit; $54k without tax credit

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No it's not. This is an extremely ridiculous statement. Complete misunderstanding of what a 'class' of vehicle means.

What does it mean to you?

I was responding to someone saying the Tesla model 3 perf was in the same class as a corolla or accord.

I think what's blowing everyone's little "class" strata is the price point here. The i4M50 and Tesla model 3 performance are direct competitors, whether you like it or not. And from a performance standpoint, you could take both of those cars and compare them to their ICE equivalents/counterparts, which is done all the time.

[Scrapula]

The new model 3P is a great bang for the buck, maybe.

But, the i4 M60 is being released with 590hp, which is a 50hp+ bump. The existing runs at 3.3 seconds. I doubt there will be much performance difference between the two. I would choose the new i4, because it has a dashboard and HUD which I prefer. I don’t like taking my eyes off the road while driving. Last Friday, a local motorcyclist was killed when a Tesla driver, using auto pilot without his eyes on the road, hit the motorcycle, knocked the driver off, and proceeded to drive over his body. Quality Tesla software. I wouldn’t trust their OTA suspension adjustments.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

Nice touches, but would be a tough sale against newly refreshed Tesla 3 performance with a price tag of 57k, 0-60 of 2.9 and range of 300 miles supported by easily accessible charging network.
BMW has to setup its game to be able to compete.

All the Model 3 has is speed. It’s an inferior product to the i4. There’s a reason Teslas share of the market is declining, and it’s because BMW / MB is competing at higher end and Hyundai/Kia at the lower end.

It’s like a WRX vs an M3. Both are fast, but different.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

The new model 3P is a great bang for the buck, maybe.

$30k less than the i4M50 with tax credit just gets a maybe? The biggest difference is the weight - 1000 lbs lighter.

I don’t blame Tesla for idiots who don’t drive the car themselves. That’s on them, not Tesla. Autopilot is adaptive cruise control, it’s not full self drive.

[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

$30k less than the i4M50 with tax credit just gets a maybe? The biggest difference is the weight - 1000 lbs lighter.

I don’t blame Tesla for idiots who don’t drive the car themselves. That’s on them, not Tesla. Autopilot is adaptive cruise control, it’s not full self drive.

I don’t qualify for the tax credit because of income. I don’t know the price of the new i4 M60, but it would probably get a bump in price. The new Tesla interior is better, with the carbon fiber. If they put in a dashboard, then I would consider it for a short term lease.

I do blame Tesla for allowing people to keep their eyes off the road while using either Autopilot or FSD. That’s a flaw in their software. It should not be so easily defeated.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

I don’t qualify for the tax credit because of income. I don’t know the price of the new i4 M60, but it would probably get a bump in price. The new Tesla interior is better, with the carbon fiber. If they put in a dashboard, then I would consider it for a short term lease.

I do blame Tesla for allowing people to keep their eyes off the road while using either Autopilot or FSD. That’s a flaw in their software. It should not be so easily defeated.

I agree with all of that.

The biggest improvements in the interior for the Tesla are the new seats and the screen for the kiddos in the back seat.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

The new model 3P is a great bang for the buck, maybe.

But, the i4 M60 is being released with 590hp, which is a 50hp+ bump. The existing runs at 3.3 seconds. I doubt there will be much performance difference between the two. I would choose the new i4, because it has a dashboard and HUD which I prefer. I don’t like taking my eyes off the road while driving. Last Friday, a local motorcyclist was killed when a Tesla driver, using auto pilot without his eyes on the road, hit the motorcycle, knocked the driver off, and proceeded to drive over his body. Quality Tesla software. I wouldn’t trust their OTA suspension adjustments.

So the driver killed the motorcyclist… Sad but true.

The driver is fully responsible to drive the car and they’re supposed to have their hands on the wheel or the auto pilot will be disengaged.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

All the Model 3 has is speed. It’s an inferior product to the i4. There’s a reason Teslas share of the market is declining, and it’s because BMW / MB is competing at higher end and Hyundai/Kia at the lower end.

It’s like a WRX vs an M3. Both are fast, but different.

Don't disagree with the market share - Tesla is running into brand loyalists like yourself. I'm a BMW loyalist, but don't see the i4M50 winning the comparison. I'd definitely buy an M3 (BMW M3) over an i4M50 (oh wait, I did!).

Anyway, how exactly is the i4M50 superior to the new model 3 performance? It's heavier - weighs 1,000 lbs more, it's $25-30k more expensive, it has the average vernasca leather or fake Sensatec vinyl - I'd put either on par with the Tesla, an inferior charging network, and the Tesla has better traction control, better motors, better efficiency, full self drive availability...

Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to be objective here. You could argue the HUD and UI is better in the BMW. I'd give you the HUD, but the UI in the Tesla is SO easy to use. Not to mention the security and safety of all the cameras.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

My pleasure. Here's some stats via car and driver with as tested prices:
Toyota Corolla Hybrid - 9s to 60, 16.9s 1/4, 100mph in 38.7s, 134hp, 3218lbs, $29k
Honda Accord Hybrid - 6.5s to 60, 15.2s 1/4, 100mph in 19.2s, 204hp, 3525lbs, $39k
i4M50 - 3.3s to 60, 11.7s 1/4, 100mph in 8.0s, 536hp, 5063lbs, $77k
Model 3 perf - 2.9s to 60, 11.5s 1/4 (est), 7.9s to 100mph (est), 510hp, 4054lbs, $47k w/tax credit; $54k without tax credit

Ford Focus RS 0-60: 4.5s
Mercedes S500 0-60: 4.5s

They're in the same class, right?(!)

Model 3 and i4 ARE NOT in the same class, because cross-shopping them doesn't make sense. Performance measures by themselves don't make a 'class' of cars.

When you say 'Luxury sport sedan', that's not a car which has like 3 options with giant panel gaps and $29K starting price at base.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Ford Focus RS 0-60: 4.5s
Mercedes S500 0-60: 4.5s

They're in the same class, right?

Model 3 and i4 ARE NOT in the same class, because nobody's cross-shopping them. Got it?

I am, and I’m somebody!

[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

So the driver killed the motorcyclist… Sad but true.

The driver is fully responsible to drive the car and they’re supposed to have their hands on the wheel or the auto pilot will be disengaged.

But, the autopilot did not disengage. The driver stated he was looking at his phone for a while. The car hit the motorcycle, still did not disengage. Then proceeded to run over the person afterwards.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I am, and I’m somebody!

Well, there are always anomalies.
You should definitely get the Tesla, if you're not sophisticated enough to appreciate the differences. Kinda like me, buying clothing. I can get Polo over Armani, because I'm not sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference when it comes to clothing.

The list of differences you wrote above is so off, that it's laughable. It's not just seats and HUD. 'Premium' class of vehicles are more customizable, and they've always been that way. Less options and less customizability are characteristic of low-tier brands like Nissan, Toyota, Tesla, Hyundai, Honda.

i4 has 9 different seat options, M3P has 2
i4 has 4 wheels options, M3P has 1.
i4 has 9 colors options, M3P has 4.
i4 has HUD, ventilated seat option, air suspension, M3P doesn't.
i4 is $75K Tesla is $50K.

Tesla Model 3 is a lower class model. It's cheaper, less customizable, using low-tier materials and the build quality is some of the worst in the entire car market. Definitely worst than Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.
Not just Model 3, but Tesla overall is a lower class brand. That's why they can't sell much of Model S and Model X cars anymore, now that Mercedes, BMW, Audi are involved. Because low-tier brands can't sell expensive cars.(Model X is selling less than EQE and iX, and I'm pretty sure i5 will be selling more than Model S when numbers come out.)

Thias is not very surprising considering Tesla fans were comparing Model S to i7 and EQS back in the day. LOL.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Well, there are always anomalies.
You should definitely get the Tesla, if you're not sophisticated enough to appreciate the differences. Kinda like me, buying clothing. I can get Polo over Armani, because I'm not sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference when it comes to clothing.

The list of differences you wrote above is so off, that it's laughable. It's not just seats and HUD. 'Premium' class of vehicles are more customizable, and they've always been that way.

BMW has 9 different seat options, Tesla has 2 - just like Honda and Toyota.
BMW has 4 wheels options, Tesla has 1. - just like Honda and Toyota
BMW has 9 colors options, Tesla has 4. - just like Honda and Toyota
BMW has HUD, ventilated seat option, air suspension, Tesla don't. - Just like Honda and Toyota.

Tesla is a lower class model.

Ad hominem attacks! Put this guy in Bimmerpost jail.

Seriously though it really depends what you prioritize. Tesla wins in performance and charging and some other metrics. The i4m50 is OK but doesn’t really motivate me to buy one. Like I said the M3 (BMW) is much better than the i4.

Also, logically you’re using words like “anymore” and other extremes. Tesla is still selling nearly 1.5m cars per year so … I don’t get your points. You seem to buy into the bespoke model as superior, which is fine. Buy what you want. But the model 3 perf is definitely in the same class as the i4.

And you’re showing your ignorance of Tesla options. S/X have ventilated seats and air suspension - S is about the price of the i4m50 with options - and the model 3 now has ventilated seats. I’d absolutely take a model S over the i4M50 come to think of it.

The best ways to tell if two cars are in the same class - meet all or most of the following criteria 1) amount of doors 2) power and performance 3) the price point 4) if C&D puts them in the same class, 5) if they both have the same drivetrain, and 6) if a car company released a car to compete.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

But, the autopilot did not disengage. The driver stated he was looking at his phone for a while. The car hit the motorcycle, still did not disengage. Then proceeded to run over the person afterwards.

Just because you believe that, doesn’t make it true

Try stepping outside of yourself

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Don't disagree with the market share - Tesla is running into brand loyalists like yourself. I'm a BMW loyalist, but don't see the i4M50 winning the comparison. I'd definitely buy an M3 (BMW M3) over an i4M50 (oh wait, I did!).

Anyway, how exactly is the i4M50 superior to the new model 3 performance? It's heavier - weighs 1,000 lbs more, it's $25-30k more expensive, it has the average vernasca leather or fake Sensatec vinyl - I'd put either on par with the Tesla, an inferior charging network, and the Tesla has better traction control, better motors, better efficiency, full self drive availability...

Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to be objective here. You could argue the HUD and UI is better in the BMW. I'd give you the HUD, but the UI in the Tesla is SO easy to use. Not to mention the security and safety of all the cameras.

I’d cross shop a Model 3 and a Camry today.

3.5 years ago, I cross shopped the Model 3 and Polestar 2, and the 2 won because it’s a more premium product. The i4 would’ve been a contender had it been out.

Today, the model 3 is cheap (feeling and now price). Just because they sold them for $60k+ when it was released doesn’t make it a premium product. It was just exclusive.

[Ossian]

I feel like this discussion underscores just how far Tesla has been able to go in their attempt to disrupt the industry - that we can even argue about the model 3 being a direct competitor with a 4 Series - especially one with an M badge (not that it means what it once did) - is pretty amazing. The Model 3 has been something of a category buster, and how often do we see that happen with legacy brands? I definitely have friends who went Tesla for their daily commuter after being long-time German brand buyers.

Personally, I never considered any Tesla because the interiors, build quality, road noise, and suspensions were a no-go after so many years as a BMW loyalist. Yep, I like my HUD, well-designed seats, and any flavor of M suspension, etc.

That said, I think I am going to take a hard look at the new Model 3 performance as a short term lease. I've been going back and forth between the I4 M50 and the I5 M60 for the last couple of months, while also waiting to test drive the upcoming 550e and the E53 AMG PHEV that launches in July. When I look at the price of the new Model 3 Performance and its recent enhancements, I feel like I'd be a fool not to at least test drive it. Honestly, with what I would save over an I5 M60, I could buy a GR86 or Miata for weekend use, which is feeling more and more like an actual option as I look at the ballooning weight on PHEV's and BEV's.

I'm really curious to feel what they've done with the new adaptive suspension and seats. I also like the idea of saving nearly a thousand pounds of weight. I think it is pretty likely that I'll stick with BMW or Mercedes, but I'm gonna at least give the new Model 3 a look -- even if it isn't a true luxury car. That's the thing about disruptive products -- they can be hard to classify using the same rules as we use for legacy products.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Sure, but they’re still way overpriced

Overpriced for the general broader market (and BMW enthusiasts), but they are priced to their nitch market. BMW doesn’t want to discount them at all from current levels, unless they can drop production costs - which are relatively high