[blake6551]

Originally Posted by ixDriver

Not OP but traded in my 2018 Model 3 after 4 years for an iX50 myself last week.

So personally I think Musk sent the devs down a dead end trying to solve universal FSD when they had a very strong highway Autopilot, and have now blown their lead. Highway Autopilot stopped substantially improving around 2020 in my personal experience.

I found active driving assist pro to be fantastic on the highway
* No phantom braking
* Less "hesitation"
* More consistent following distances
* Smoother acceleration & braking
* MUCH better creeping & coasting in slow stop&go traffic
* Lane changes worked well
* Better handling of lane width changes for things like HOV merge lanes
* More pleasant "alert driver" noise when it wants your attention than Autopilot
* I like that you can also take over steering and then hand it back to automatic control easily
* Similar for accelerating through the speed management to pass an adjacent car, etc.. (Tesla would hard brake against you often as you let go of accelerator)
* Hands free under 45mph is a nice novelty but not key

All in all, wife wasn't really sure when the iX was driving itself or when I was driving. In the Tesla 90% of the time she was very aware the car was driving us, and found it unpleasant.

Again though, this is comparison of divided highway driving performance, which is really the only place where both products are supposed to be used if you read the fine print.

Completely agree, I've had two Tesla's spanning 2015-2020 and Autopilot is nowhere near is good in the vast majority of circumstances. The seamless handover is a huge deal IMO, and Tesla really missed the mark.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by blake6551

Completely agree, I've had two Tesla's spanning 2015-2020 and Autopilot is nowhere near is good in the vast majority of circumstances. The seamless handover is a huge deal IMO, and Tesla really missed the mark.

I see. So the BMW only works on highways for now

Are you able to navigate on autopilot on the BMW ? Meaning put a location and it will take you there at least till you get out of the freeway?

[sor]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I see. So the BMW only works on highways for now

Are you able to navigate on autopilot on the BMW ? Meaning put a location and it will take you there at least till you get out of the freeway?

I don't think it will take ramps to switch freeways without clicking a turn signal or anything like that. It does the most important thing though, which is to reduce driver fatigue and help keep you from making mistakes.

There really isn't a production quality self driving system that works off-highway, from anyone yet that I'm aware of. Teslas is getting better with time but more of a novelty to enjoy testing than something you trust. I think most car companies are more conservative, so we won't see something from them until it doesn't require a waiver. Or maybe driving assistants will always require a waiver, but something less beta, if they do release something.

[ixDriver]

Originally Posted by sor

I don't think it will take ramps to switch freeways without clicking a turn signal or anything like that. It does the most important thing though, which is to reduce driver fatigue and help keep you from making mistakes.

There really isn't a production quality self driving system that works off-highway, from anyone yet that I'm aware of. Teslas is getting better with time but more of a novelty to enjoy testing than something you trust. I think most car companies are more conservative, so we won't see something from them until it doesn't require a waiver. Or maybe driving assistants will always require a waiver, but something less beta, if they do release something.

Correct
Remember that the production shipping Tesla software has caveats all over the place about which parts of it are beta, and where you are supposed to use it (NOT OFF HIGHWAY).

If you however are part of the Beta FSD program because you 1) paid $$$ 2) passed the beta safety score entry criteria 3) were actually selected and 4) do not get booted from program due to disengagements or posting negative things on social media...
Then yes you will get access to the special Beta FSD which while it works on non-highways, is unstable version to version and frequently worse.

These people are in the minority of Tesla owners, ~100K out of about 2M total sales, so only 5% of drivers.

Anyone else using their Tesla Autopilot on non-highways are deluding themselves about what their car is actually capable of and putting themselves & others in danger, especially if they are not proactively monitoring very carefully. Arguably the Beta drivers are also a danger, but with Musk's explicit rather than just implicit blessing.

The traditional automakers are not going to push the legal envelope the way Tesla has. This is probably for the best, and Tesla is going to likely face a crackdown in the next year or two.

[DarkPrince]

Originally Posted by ixDriver

Correct
Remember that the production shipping Tesla software has caveats all over the place about which parts of it are beta, and where you are supposed to use it (NOT OFF HIGHWAY).

If you however are part of the Beta FSD program because you 1) paid $$$ 2) passed the beta safety score entry criteria 3) were actually selected and 4) do not get booted from program due to disengagements or posting negative things on social media...
Then yes you will get access to the special Beta FSD which while it works on non-highways, is unstable version to version and frequently worse.

These people are in the minority of Tesla owners, ~100K out of about 2M total sales, so only 5% of drivers.

Anyone else using their Tesla Autopilot on non-highways are deluding themselves about what their car is actually capable of and putting themselves & others in danger, especially if they are not proactively monitoring very carefully. Arguably the Beta drivers are also a danger, but with Musk's explicit rather than just implicit blessing.

The traditional automakers are not going to push the legal envelope the way Tesla has. This is probably for the best, and Tesla is going to likely face a crackdown in the next year or two.

I was one of those rare minority with a Model X enrolled in FSD beta and I barely used it because it was more taxing mentally to keep an eye out for the car doing dumb shit than actually driving myself. My wife and I stopped using the autopilot on the interstates almost immediately a couple years ago after multiple dangerous phantom braking incidents in traffic going 70mph.

On the other hand, we drove the iX from the dealership to our house (500miles approx) with driver assistance on for majority of the drive with confidence and without any incidents! Tesla autopilot is marketing more than anything and in its current form, probably dangerous.

[hilld]

I know an unpopular opinion. If you want auto pilot ride the bus. There are just way too many obstacles on the road, (cars, people, hazards) etc to trust in AP. Airplanes on the other hand have a lot more space around them and don't have to deal with potholes or pedestrians or bicycles around them.

Also, if there is an accident, are you going to have the victim sue your AP or are they going to sue you?

[ixDriver]

Originally Posted by hilld

I know an unpopular opinion. If you want auto pilot ride the bus. There are just way too many obstacles on the road, (cars, people, hazards) etc to trust in AP. Airplanes on the other hand have a lot more space around them and don't have to deal with potholes or pedestrians or bicycles around them.

Also, if there is an accident, are you going to have the victim sue your AP or are they going to sue you?

Right I think the problem space outside pure "highway assistance" is far too large & varied. Divided highway with no traffic signals, cross traffic, pedestrians or bikes.. somewhat competent at the moment. But the driver needs to remember that the car is managing lane keeping, distance keeping, emergency braking, lane changing, and going to flash up scary warning lights & alarm noises if anything out of the ordinary happens.

Current hardware imaging/sensing/computing suite is clearly not capable, nevermind whatever software approach. I don't think even in 5 years we are any closer to FSD being "within 5 years".

The only maker expressing strong confidence in their product is MB taking on liability for cars using their assist mode below 45mph in Germany.

I'll believe Tesla's hype when they are the ones in court / footing the bill when the car crashes itself.

[Eugr]

Originally Posted by blake6551

Completely agree, I've had two Tesla's spanning 2015-2020 and Autopilot is nowhere near is good in the vast majority of circumstances. The seamless handover is a huge deal IMO, and Tesla really missed the mark.

+1. I've had my Model 3LR since 2019 and I like DAPP in my X7 much more.

I don't have FSD beta, but I do have FSD option. With Tesla devs focused on the new FSD stack, highway driving experience did not improve since 2020 and sometimes feels like it's gotten even worse.

My biggest gripes with Tesla autopilot:

- Too aggressive accelerating and braking. BMW is much smoother.
- Disengages steering completely and abruptly when you take over steering to avoid a pothole or just slightly move over for a passing motorcycle, for instance.
- Loud and annoying chimes when engaging/disengaging even in "joe mode".

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Eugr

- Disengages steering completely and abruptly when you take over steering to avoid a pothole or just slightly move over for a passing motorcycle, for instance.

When I rented a model 3 a few months ago, this is what stood out most to me compared to my X5's driver assistance on the highway.

Our roads here are bad especially right after winter and there is plenty of small corrections that need to be applied. It not only was annoying that it does not tolerate these slight corrections and ends up disengaging, but in order to make the correction you have to torque the wheel a decent amount and when it disengages, their system stops "fighting" your attempt to correct it and you end up jerking the wheel. The BMW system is much smoother by comparison and I ended up turning it off on the model 3 halfway to my destination because it was too annoying.

[ixDriver]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

When I rented a model 3 a few months ago, this is what stood out most to me compared to my X5's driver assistance on the highway.

Our roads here are bad especially right after winter and there is plenty of small corrections that need to be applied. It not only was annoying that it does not tolerate these slight corrections and ends up disengaging, but in order to make the correction you have to torque the wheel a decent amount and when it disengages, their system stops "fighting" your attempt to correct it and you end up jerking the wheel. The BMW system is much smoother by comparison and I ended up turning it off on the model 3 halfway to my destination because it was too annoying.

Right - on Tesla, you have to jerk the wheel to correct steering, which disengages autosteer, but NOT cruise. So the steering is back under your control until you re-engage it with the stalk, but the car will continue to cruise. This can be disorienting if you are now pointed in a direction that is clear of traffic and the car will suddenly speed up to your set speed.

The safest way I found to disengage was a brake tap which disengaged all steering/speed control, make whatever maneuver I need to, and then re-engage both with the stalk.

Of course on the model 3 you have to look over to the center screen to understand what ADAS is still enabled between TACC/AP/NoAP/FSD, etc..

Feels much smoother in iX, plus more situational awareness with the dashboard + HUD.

[Eugr]

Originally Posted by ixDriver

The safest way I found to disengage was a brake tap which disengaged all steering/speed control, make whatever maneuver I need to, and then re-engage both with the stalk.

I ended up just using the right stalk to disengage if I anticipate a steering correction. I did use brake tap initially but I didn't want to confuse/annoy people driving behind me.

[livingfire83]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

How does active driving compare to FSD on the Model 3?

Sorry y'all was a little busy with work. I'll answer all the questions now:

I would say FSD constantly disengaged, freaked out and panicked. When it worked, it was lovely, but the constant issues were annoying...especially in stop and go, as the Tesla would hard accelerate and hard brake with small movements in the traffic pattern.

[livingfire83]

Originally Posted by GTiceman

Congratulations. I would also be curious as to the price difference between your Model 3 and the iX as your equipped it.

Yeah for sure it's quite a price difference...I bought my Tesla for around 55k, and the iX as equipped was 96...but I sold two vehicles (my old Porsche Boxster S that I barely drove anymore) and am now in a single car

[livingfire83]

Originally Posted by Louis_BE

Well, with Tronity there is live SOC data that apparently should work with ABRP … so that could be an interim solution. The only thing you miss out is the battery pre conditioning (more of a winter thing).

But the fact that it’s so awful is beyond comprehension, it’s clear BMW i3 drivers never took long road trips.

I would agree, I think that the route planning navigation will be improved over time as the infrastructure grows...I'll make another post later about my electrify america experiences.

[livingfire83]

Originally Posted by sor

I don't think it will take ramps to switch freeways without clicking a turn signal or anything like that. It does the most important thing though, which is to reduce driver fatigue and help keep you from making mistakes.

There really isn't a production quality self driving system that works off-highway, from anyone yet that I'm aware of. Teslas is getting better with time but more of a novelty to enjoy testing than something you trust. I think most car companies are more conservative, so we won't see something from them until it doesn't require a waiver. Or maybe driving assistants will always require a waiver, but something less beta, if they do release something.

So interestingly enough, there is now an option which allows for some lane changing during navigation and driving assistant active, which is rather cool...think autopilot on nav "lite". It doesn't actively move lanes often, but does it often enough that its handy. Also, it'll constantly warn you to disengage or watch road conditions while doing so (on the heads-up display)

[hugo_nz]

Originally Posted by livingfire83

So interestingly enough, there is now an option which allows for some lane changing during navigation and driving assistant active, which is rather cool...think autopilot on nav "lite". It doesn't actively move lanes often, but does it often enough that its handy. Also, it'll constantly warn you to disengage or watch road conditions while doing so (on the heads-up display)

You're lucky! This function, although present on iDrive, is not enabled in NZ. None of the route and junction assist features are active in our market