[MadBimmeRad]

Who would have thought

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ar-2023-03-20/

[footie]

I was told that anything more than a 3mm scrap on the floor will result in the car being written off.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by footie

I was told that anything more than a 3mm scrap on the floor will result in the car being written off.

It's an abomination given the core ethos of EVs is to reduce pollution

I would much rather drive a car that can be repaired even if using fossil fuels than one that is so wasteful under such slight conditions

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

It's an abomination given the core ethos of EVs is to reduce pollution

I would much rather drive a car that can be repaired even if using fossil fuels than one that is so wasteful under such slight conditions

Exactly.
The new battery backs use cells that are glued in place. You cannot replace any cells in the Tesla structural battery pack.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Exactly.
The new battery backs use cells that are glued in place. You cannot replace any cells in the Tesla structural battery pack.

I think Tesla uses the glued cells to provide rigidity and treats them as part of chassis. I remember new Tesla models even remove the metal frames underneath the battery packs to reduce weight, so the battery packs are the frames!

BMW's EV designs appear to not rely on battery packs to be the frame, and there is a protection cage around the battery components, so hopefully the cars won't be totaled for minor scraps of the underneath panels.

[freshxdough]

You can replace nearly everything separately in any BMW pack. The fact is the cell modules are modular. Tesla and some other manufacturer have one essentially large battery inside, lots of tiny cells all welded together. So you can’t replace it separately. I know of a couple BMW battery cases that have been replaced. It is expensive, but not enough for writing it off on these cars yet.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by freshxdough

It is expensive, but not enough for writing it off on these cars yet.

What is the cost of replacing BMW's battery modules?

[freshxdough]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

What is the cost of replacing BMW's battery modules?

A dual cell module is $13,000 and a single cell module is $1,500 retail.

[Space Cadet]

Originally Posted by freshxdough

A dual cell module is $13,000 and a single cell module is $1,500 retail.

Are there 6 dual and 2 single in the i4 pack? Plus structural battery frame if needed.

If that’s right then I can see why they’re being written off. Most UK insurers have their own ‘preferred’ accident repair centres that are far cheaper than a main dealer. If the manufacturers aren’t ‘sharing’ then that forces insurers to use main dealers and the cost is too high. My local dealer charges more than £200GBP/Hr labour compared to independents close to half that. Changing and repairing the battery unit is a massive piece of work time wise and the overall charges would quickly exceed the 50% value for a write-off.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

Are there 6 dual and 2 single in the i4 pack? Plus structural battery frame if needed.

If that’s right then I can see why they’re being written off. Most UK insurers have their own ‘preferred’ accident repair centres that are far cheaper than a main dealer. If the manufacturers aren’t ‘sharing’ then that forces insurers to use main dealers and the cost is too high. My local dealer charges more than £200GBP/Hr labour compared to independents close to half that. Changing and repairing the battery unit is a massive piece of work time wise and the overall charges would quickly exceed the 50% value for a write-off.

Which brings me back to the point; it seems to me, the whole EV premise is a big con the way this is heading - why should you, who paid good money in good faith hoping to protect the environment, who did nothing wrong, have to claim insurance for a 3mm scratch which may ultimately write off your car? And end up having your premium go through the roof. In the meantime, more pollution in the way of car being scrapped and battery being unusable.

This is simply insane

[freshxdough]

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

Are there 6 dual and 2 single in the i4 pack? Plus structural battery frame if needed.

If that’s right then I can see why they’re being written off. Most UK insurers have their own ‘preferred’ accident repair centres that are far cheaper than a main dealer. If the manufacturers aren’t ‘sharing’ then that forces insurers to use main dealers and the cost is too high. My local dealer charges more than £200GBP/Hr labour compared to independents close to half that. Changing and repairing the battery unit is a massive piece of work time wise and the overall charges would quickly exceed the 50% value for a write-off.

5 dual cells and 3 single cells. The point being is you’ll likely never need to replace the cell modules for any kind of case damage. The battery case is protective and there’s no reason to replace a cell module unless it has been damaged from intrusion into the pack. There is a slight air gap between the case and the cells. The physical aluminum case itself would get replaced which is possible and while it may require a bit of labor, it won’t be $40k+ worth of labor.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by footie

I was told that anything more than a 3mm scrap on the floor will result in the car being written off.

Do you have any source on this?
I very much doubt a 3mm scratch could intrude into the battery compartment.

[jpuffmasterpuffpuffpuff69]

Don't believe everything that you read.

Also, a salvageable Model 3 is going to be worth a lot for part pickers who want to repair model 3s, those who want to sell parts for conversions, and those who will just repair the car and then sell it, either with a salvage title or a faked clean title.

[mbchris]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Which brings me back to the point; it seems to me, the whole EV premise is a big con the way this is heading - why should you, who paid good money in good faith hoping to protect the environment, who did nothing wrong, have to claim insurance for a 3mm scratch which may ultimately write off your car?

It's part of the learning/evolution of EVs. We're in the first or second decade of mass adoption. It's going to take a few iterations to work out what's best and most efficient for production, maintenance, safety etc.

No one would realistically be expecting manufacturers and industry to have perfection out of the box. 20-50 years to reach near that?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mbchris

It's part of the learning/evolution of EVs. We're in the first or second decade of mass adoption. It's going to take a few iterations to work out what's best and most efficient for production, maintenance, safety etc.

No one would realistically be expecting manufacturers and industry to have perfection out of the box. 20-50 years to reach near that?

I read about synthetic fuels from porsche, just imagine that takes off and all the massive battery packs become obsolete.

[WRCWIA]

Don't get why so many ICE owners spend so much time in this sub-forum shi*ting on the technology.

if you want support for your displeasure - how about posting the link in your gas vehicle sub-forum and hate all you want

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I read about synthetic fuels from porsche, just imagine that takes off and all the massive battery packs become obsolete.

Originally Posted by WRCWIA

Don't get why so many ICE owners spend so much time in this sub-forum shi*ting on the technology.

if you want support for your displeasure - how about posting the link in your gas vehicle sub-forum and hate all you want

I don't either.
Also I don't understand why they promote things like synthetic fuels that still do not burn as clean as hydrogen.

Hydrogen has the most promise but until there is a cheap way to produce it; it's not going to happen.

Therenwas a recent new discovery that allows direct hydrogen generation from sea water. The problem with using sea water is that it's not clean and the process to clean it also takes massive energy.

Nothing wrong with battery tech, but planes are not flying with batteries. The energy density just won't get there. That's why hydrogen is so important for clean transportation.

[Space Cadet]

Most of us have both ICE and BEV (or will do in a week or two in my case) and the technology isn’t the problem, it’s the fact that repairs are expensive with cars allegedly being written off for frankly spurious reasons by insurers who’s workshops don’t have the expertise.

As an aside, insurance for my soon to arrive M50 is more than double that for my X6. The drive towards electrification in the UK at least could be stalled again if people wanting BEVs find that insurance is unaffordable.

I think syn fuels are a red herring personally. Hydrogen will be the way once production gets sorted along with some of the on-car storage challenges.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

Most of us have both ICE and BEV (or will do in a week or two in my case) and the technology isn’t the problem, it’s the fact that repairs are expensive with cars allegedly being written off for frankly spurious reasons by insurers who’s workshops don’t have the expertise.

As an aside, insurance for my soon to arrive M50 is more than double that for my X6. The drive towards electrification in the UK at least could be stalled again if people wanting BEVs find that insurance is unaffordable.

I think syn fuels are a red herring personally. Hydrogen will be the way once production gets sorted along with some of the on-car storage challenges.

I do read that solid state battery energy density is 4x better than current battery tech, and solid state has no thermal runaway, hence there is no need for the heavy protection cage.

Hopefully the battery modules can also be designed to be easily replaced to reduce repair and insurance costs.

If solid state tech does materialize, then we may see a BMW EV that weights 3500lb with 300-400 miles of range and still can hit 0-60 in 3 to 4 seconds.

I think the first step of synthetic fuel is to produce hydrogen from water, so synthetic fuel development can benefit hydrogen tech too.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by WRCWIA

Don't get why so many ICE owners spend so much time in this sub-forum shi*ting on the technology.

if you want support for your displeasure - how about posting the link in your gas vehicle sub-forum and hate all you want

How very mature and relevant your content was to add value to the thread

Fix the problem, don't shift it

You'd make a wonderful career out of politics

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Who would have thought

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ar-2023-03-20/

Very true. This is the very beginning of a multi-year journey that will most likely follow these milestones:

- Car insurance companies will continue to raise the rates because the battery diagnostic data is not accessible and the batteries are not modular enough to permit repairs in place

- Home insurance companies will refuse to insure homes if an electric vehicle causes a fire while being charged in the garage - unless battery diagnostic data is accessible via a standard protocol

- As more electric vehicles are sold, a tragic battery fire will become the tipping point for regulators

- EU regulators will be the first to issue guidelines (think USB C ...) for battery diagnostics provided in real time to the manufacturer and how batteries should be manufactured to permit module repairs

- US regulators will follow with California being the first state; California will most likely collaborate with EU regulators to announce new regulations at the same time

- Investment in solid state battery development will accelerate. To contrast with the current lithium-ion containing liquid electrolyte, a solid-state battery features a solid electrolyte. Solid-state batteries are lighter, provide more energy density, offer more range, and can also recharge faster

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

Very true. This is the very beginning of a multi-year journey that will most likely follow these milestones:

- Car insurance companies will continue to raise the rates because the battery diagnostic data is not accessible and the batteries are not modular enough to permit repairs in place

- Home insurance companies will refuse to insure homes if an electric vehicle causes a fire while being charged in the garage - unless battery diagnostic data is accessible via a standard protocol

- As more electric vehicles are sold, a tragic battery fire will become the tipping point for regulators

- EU regulators will be the first to issue guidelines (think USB C ...) for battery diagnostics provided in real time to the manufacturer and how batteries should be manufactured to permit module repairs

- US regulators will follow with California being the first state; California will most likely collaborate with EU regulators to announce new regulations at the same time

- Investment in solid state battery development will accelerate. To contrast with the current lithium-ion containing liquid electrolyte, a solid-state battery features a solid electrolyte. Solid-state batteries are lighter, provide more energy density, offer more range, and can also recharge faster

Thank you for a great feedback